Mods and Game Difficulty

Thomas the Terror · Dec 31, 2007

You guys said, that rapiers needed training and cutlasses don't. SO I purpose to set a certain melee skill requirement or skill to let you use a rapier. Say: professional fencer (ability) for rapiers and for sabers (basic defence) and no requirements for cutlasses and daggers-alike. That is the most logical.

morgan terror · Dec 31, 2007

indeed. i find that the gunman ability that is required for pistols has also added a good, although small, aspect to gameplay. you're not only limited to the items you find, but by yourself as well. it prevents the player from using extremely good items, should he find them, early on in the game.

OddjobXL · Dec 31, 2007

I'm not certain how quickly skills will max in Build 14 but they go up <i>real</i> quicklike in Build 13. As most players will be buying up (or training up) melee and leadership first and foremost won't that mean bonuses to leadership and melee will be the first to go obselete if they're weapon mods? How long will those bonuses be viable for?

ronlosey · Jan 1, 2008

I figured to represent the skill requirement with other low attributes, which would then be modified by the melee skill (and perks). For example, a rapier's problem is low damage. You would have to be highly skilled to ever do significant damage with one. Heavier blades have problems on defense - you would have to know what you're doing to ever get them maneuvered to a useful position in time.

It's less arbitrary than "you can't pick up this weapon because you're stupid", but very nearly as crippling ... and it applies to just about any weapon, in some form or another.

And no, the bonus to leadership would only be significant until your own leadership skill got high enough that you no longer needed the symbols to prove your qualities. But a bonus is a bonus.

I'll see what I can do with the descriptions today. Hopefully.

ronlosey · Jan 1, 2008

Here's a re-written text file. You can see there what I finally came up with on the presentation swords... had to re-arrange a couple of them. Re-named a lot of stuff.

I also wrote myself into the credits list ... the journal page of all the people what's-his-name was going to kill. (I put myself in there in a most humorous way.)

Anyway, new text file. Most of the least logical points removed. Good historical quote on the rapier description. You can tell from the descriptions which ones should be unique, and for whom.

Zadra ka Malefica · Jan 1, 2008

Hmmm... Yesterday I started a new game (Build 14 alpha 6 update 2) with Ron's modified file, and I could no more find swords anywhere. So I opened it and changed all the 100s to (space)99. I guess that simply adding that space before them would work as well, but I don't believe in 100% chances... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/happy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="^_^" border="0" alt="happy.gif" />
Besides, I'm not sure that changing so drastically the HP increase would be a good idea. Could lead to a frustrating amount of reloads. I don't like easy games - I played Build 13 at swashbuckler level and gave up 'cause it was not a challenge - but also can't stand playing the same battle dozens of times.
Moreover, I l<i>ike</i> the bladedamage and ammo mods, so in my opinion you should keep them toggleable instead of scrapping them.

ronlosey · Jan 1, 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Whiteshaix @ Jan 1 2008, 07:10 PM) [snapback]229767[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>Hmmm... Yesterday I started a new game (Build 14 alpha 6 update 2) with Ron's modified file, and I could no more find swords anywhere. So I opened it and changed all the 100s to (space)99. I guess that simply adding that space before them would work as well, but I don't believe in 100% chances... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/happy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="^_^" border="0" alt="happy.gif" />
Besides, I'm not sure that changing so drastically the HP increase would be a good idea. Could lead to a frustrating amount of reloads. I don't like easy games - I played Build 13 at swashbuckler level and gave up 'cause it was not a challenge - but also can't stand playing the same battle dozens of times.
Moreover, I l<i>ike</i> the bladedamage and ammo mods, so in my opinion you should keep them toggleable instead of scrapping them.</div>

The 100% chance is not 100% across the board ... it's still modified by the opposing weapon's chances plus the melee skill of both parties. It's a percentage modifier, not a percentage chance. (If they really were percentage chances, a lot of them would be WAY off.)

I do not foresee any more frustrating reloads this way than before. The lower HP figures will apply across the board, so if you are the least bit cautious, there's a good chance you can win many duels without taking a scratch - you hit them first, and they go down. The only thing it will really eliminate is the ability to take hits without consequence, but that will apply to both sides equally as well. And there's still armor. And guns to thin their numbers.

It will, however, encourage caution and tactics instead of just standing there and trading damage with somebody for 900 consecutive hits. You'll either have to learn to block or to make your first shot count. It will also mean that low-level characters could still be dangerous (including you when you're low-level).

We haven't actually planned to completely remove the bladedamage and ammo mods yet ... but with these new numbers (as soon as I get the guns too ... still thinking about exactly how to do that), I think you will find them quite pointless. I mean, they created a money sink before ... but such a sink should be unnecessary if everything else is in working order. The ammo mod was because the guns were overpowered - balancing their stats will reduce that need as well. But the plan is not to remove anything that patched a hole in the game until there is something under it to fix it... that would just be bad procedure.

Anyway, thanks for finding the "add a space" bug. I imposed it on an existing game and so didn't catch that one myself.

Zadra ka Malefica · Jan 1, 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I do not foresee any more frustrating reloads this way than before. The lower HP figures will apply across the board, so if you are the least bit cautious, there's a good chance you can win many duels without taking a scratch - you hit them first, and they go down.</div>
Well, I'm thinking mostly about those situations in which you have to fight more than an enemy (dungeons and ambushes, for instance). The new stats actually seem to increase the game difficulty, at the moment I think that facing more than an enemy with far less HP will mean certain death. I'll play a bit more to see how the perks and fencing skills will apply to it anyway. You could be right after all. Anyway, with the auto-skill system on, melee skill goes up quite slowly.

ronlosey · Jan 1, 2008

The enemy will also have far less hit points, making them more vulnerable both to gunfire and to the first stroke of the attack. By causing targets to be disabled more quickly, it should be less likely for either side to be able to use superior numbers effectively, unless they actually manage to surround you.

Of course, if you DO get hit, it will be bad. Bad enough, even if you don't go down, to need immediate medical aid before you can try another enemy. That should encourage more tactics, and make the changes to weapons more significant, but relative difficulty should not change much.

Pieter Boelen · Jan 1, 2008

I'll be most interested in how this will actually play out gameplay-wise. I'll make sure this stuff is added to Alpha 8 so it can be tested. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :yes

" border="0" alt="yes.gif" />
Perhaps doctors and medical items could be made much more important now as well. Also: I replaced potions with bandages in most cases and made the potions less common still. That will make the fights harder. Perhaps a bit too hard with the new HP code.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Captain Fitzpatrick @ Dec 31 2007, 07:08 PM) [snapback]229476[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>I had a thought would it be possible to attach a skill requirement to swords, i.e., needing to have say 6, 8 or 10 in the melee skill to reflect the training that certain swords need to use effectively rather than a character level requirement (As we all choose different skills while playing), if it was possible then you could have presentation swords but also a couple of swords above this level meaning only the best melee fighters could use these swords.</div>An interesting though. Using a minimum fencing skill instead of a minimum character level makes much more sense. However, gameplay-wise I see a possible problem: If you require a certain fencing skill to be able to use the high level blades, when you get that higher fencing skill, you get a double bonus which might be unbalancing: First of all, your actual damage done will increase because your skill increased AND you can use the better blade, increasing your damage further.

UNLESS the damage done with a blade is made to no longer depend on your fencing skill at all. So your fencing skill solely changes which blades you can use. But a low fencing level character with a saber is going to do just as much damage as a high fencing level character with the same saber. However, the high fencing level character can also use a rapier, which would do more damage. For example. Not sure how well that would work for gameplay though. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(OddjobXL @ Dec 31 2007, 10:52 PM) [snapback]229576[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>I'm not certain how quickly skills will max in Build 14 but they go up <i>real</i> quicklike in Build 13. As most players will be buying up (or training up) melee and leadership first and foremost won't that mean bonuses to leadership and melee will be the first to go obselete if they're weapon mods? How long will those bonuses be viable for?</div>In Build 14 we have the Auto Skill System used by default: You can only increase your fencing skill by actually fencing and it will increase automatically. That does make a difference in this respect, I think. Experience gained by trading and playing quests can't actually be used to increase your fencing skill anymore.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ron Losey @ Jan 1 2008, 05:45 AM) [snapback]229742[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>Here's a re-written text file. You can see there what I finally came up with on the presentation swords... had to re-arrange a couple of them. Re-named a lot of stuff.</div>I'll have a look at it. Thanks very much! Could you also update the blade list I posted before with the new names and applications for the blades? I could try and actually have them used as presentation blades for the proper cases then. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :yes

" border="0" alt="yes.gif" />

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ron Losey @ Jan 1 2008, 05:45 AM) [snapback]229742[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>I also wrote myself into the credits list ... the journal page of all the people what's-his-name was going to kill. (I put myself in there in a most humorous way.)</div>That list's a joke of Sir Christopher Mings' who rewrote and improved he Mateus Santos quest. There is also the REAL credits list in RESOURCE\INI\TEXTS\ENGLISH\about_build.txt.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Whiteshaix @ Jan 1 2008, 12:10 PM) [snapback]229767[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>Hmmm... Yesterday I started a new game (Build 14 alpha 6 update 2) with Ron's modified file, and I could no more find swords anywhere.</div>There was a typo in that file with a double ,, which caused a problem. Changing ,, to , solved it for me.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Whiteshaix @ Jan 1 2008, 12:10 PM) [snapback]229767[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>Moreover, I l<i>ike</i> the bladedamage and ammo mods, so in my opinion you should keep them toggleable instead of scrapping them.</div>I like them as well. In the worst case, we'll just have them turned off by default. But removing them completely is a bit too much as far as I'm concerned. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/whistling.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :wp

" border="0" alt="whistling.gif" />

morgan terror · Jan 1, 2008

you don't fully understand what's going to be changed, i think. hp will be lowered, yes, but the comparative strengths between you and the enemy will remain the same. battles just won't last as long, but will still be pretty much balanced hp-wise as they are now. it just takes fewer hits to kill each other, but your chances remain roughly the same.

you really should try the skill system in build 14. it gives a way better perspective of things. for instance, all skills rise very slowly. in fact, leadership is hard to get above 5 at all.

morgan terror · Jan 1, 2008

before i forget, could you add me into that list as well? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile2.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

)" border="0" alt="smile2.gif" /> something else i just remembered is that one of the books about be has a bug. you can't see the entire text in the info screen because it's too long. making the sentences follow each other up instead of having one sentence on every line would fix it.

Pieter Boelen · Jan 1, 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Morgan Terror @ Jan 1 2008, 02:50 PM) [snapback]229795[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>in fact, leadership is hard to get above 5 at all.</div>Which would make those presentation blades more useful! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/danse1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :dance

" border="0" alt="danse1.gif" />

morgan terror · Jan 1, 2008

exactly. you can get it above 5 by the usual route, but it takes a long while. items help a lot.

zorglub · Jan 1, 2008

Well. You don't matter if I express my views and sum up some of the ideas that have been said here?

- we should keep the ammo mod. I really like it. And if one day we manage to put on long & interesting siege and battles it will come up handy.
- minor change on the quality of swords, so that it'd really be quality (so 'poor' in stead of worn, etc). That allows a lot of variability from one blade to another ; I quite disagree with Ron Losey about'the simpler the better' - your old teacher advice may come up handy in a lot of situation, but not in all. Eventhought some interface should maybe be improved to avoid being crownded by same kind swords of different qualities.
- change to the sword-break mod so that blade of any quality can break (depending on what sword it is, and how poorly it was made, etc.)
- change to blacksmiths ; they should now only be able to repear broken swords and actually make new ones. A kind of specialisation could be good (one's better in doing rapier, another saber, etc) but it shouldn't be tiresome (like damn I want a rapier and the only one that's making good one lives in FdF and I have -160 with the French)
- armor shouldn't block too much gun attack, that's higly unrealistic (or maybe only grapeshot?)
- street merchant shouldn't sell that much of weapons.
- time era applying for weapons as well, not only for ships.
- I'm against that idea of preventing the player to use a sword if he doesn't have a correct fencing skill. It would be more revelant to change the way damages are increased depending on your fencing skill, in order to add which type of weapon you are using. So that some blades are doing aproximativly the same damages whatever fencing skill you have (cutlass), and other start from very low and highly increase with your fencing skill (rapier) -that was Captain Fitzpatrick idea. It'll be good if the menu would tell you the actual min/maw damages you'll do with that sword takling into account your fencing skill.
- You're talking about changing the character fighting speed depending on what kind of weapon he's using. That need to be done. For now it's clearly related to fencing skill, we have to find where it is coded.

Ron Losey, I doesn't really understand you when you're complaining about micro-managing. In my game both officers & crewmen resupply themself with potion & ammunition without me having to tell them. But I agree that they aren't intelligent enough to ask the blacksmith for repairs.

Now about the Windmill Slayer... It's name and the description of that sword really made it clear that it was supposed to be the sword of the most famous Don Quijote de la Mancha, even if in Cervantes mind it was supposed to use just an old rapier and we don't quite see why his sword would end up in the Caribbean. But why not, who cares...

Anyway, good thing you start working on this Ron Losey. I wish you much succes!

ronlosey · Jan 1, 2008

The updated list is pretty much in the text file. Most of the presentation blades are renamed to obviously suggest they are a presentation blade and from whom. The others have a line like "A gift from (x)" in the description. I could re-copy it here, but you can likely read it from the file just as easily.

The joke credits will be fine ... I wasn't looking for credit, specifically. I just saw an opportunity to interject on his hit list: " Also some college professor named Losey who apparently once gave him a bad grade." (I am actually better known for giving bad grades than I am for computer programming.)

I also cleaned up some descriptions on the guns, fixed some grammar mistakes, and other such niceties in various places ... which I did not document, so do use the entire text file.

Still thinking about changes to the guns. Meanwhile, I don't see how a lot of changes to skill requirements on the blades will help at the moment. With these numbers, the system seems playable. If it comes out unbalancing long-term, we'll monkey with them again then.

However, as soon as this is done, we can start on the REAL fun ... which is cleaning up the ship combat. That's going to take some code. I can fabricate the formulas, but the code itself is beyond me. I'm trying to come up with formulas for exactly what we need, but it's not going to be easy.

It still looks to me like the entire blade quality, blade damage, and ammo mods are about to become terribly irrelevant. Their initial purposes were to create balance, and their need is about to disappear (as balance is being created in a more basic way). Without their purpose, they would just be micro-management and frustration.

I'll move the ship code question to another thread, maybe tomorrow (when I've worked out what I want to say). I guess we can work on both at once. I have some other suggestions too, but they're non-critical, so they really can wait.

Edit:
And by the way, armor of this period was designed to turn gunfire. Existing pieces from the period are known for "proof-marks", where a standard load was fired into them to check if they would stop a musket ball, before they were sold. Most pieces from the period have a proof mark, usually in the lower right hand corner of the breastplate. Odds are they would turn or at least mostly absorb half or more of gunshots that hit metal.

morgan terror · Jan 1, 2008

what needs to be tweaked in the ship battles then? the only thing i see is that the opponent and officer intellegence is just too... absent.

Thomas the Terror · Jan 1, 2008

I am with simple virtual sailor about the merchants who musn't sell "much" weapons. How I want to see it is like this, more blacksmiths: normal blacksmiths sell most of the swords, but only the average normal ones. Than you would have also some fancy blacksmiths who make fancy swords (not better but with more decoration) and juwels.
And gunsmiths make guns. Then the blacksmiths get a more prominent role.

morgan terror · Jan 1, 2008

that would be a good idea. i hardly ever visit the blacksmiths with the bladedamage mod turned off. i usually just walk round with the sword i have until i find a better one or the same one of better quality.

ronlosey · Jan 1, 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Morgan Terror @ Jan 1 2008, 10:52 PM) [snapback]229828[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>what needs to be tweaked in the ship battles then? the only thing i see is that the opponent and officer intellegence is just too... absent.</div>

A lot of stuff ... but let me get it into a coherent whole, so I can explain the point with some measure of intelligence instead of just rambling.

In short, the ships are too influenced by random factors (like starting positions within pistol shot of each other) and level-based traits (like a trait and three perks related to ship defense, creating a range from completely vulnerable to completely invulnerable depending on your level), and so not influenced nearly enough by tactics or physical reality (like the minor point that slow ships can't catch fast ones).

The AI tactics are not too bad, if you give them a chance to work. Thing is, they will never get a chance to work this way.

But I'll write up the intended formula changes in a coordinated way, maybe tomorrow. (It's late here.)

Edit:
And good thinking on the blacksmiths handling most weapons ... but for the moment, let's concentrate on fixing problems and getting game balance. I have a bunch of non-critical ideas like that too, but they can wait. Fixing the balance so that the game stays playable, challenging, and somewhat mentally engaging is first. (As opposed to becoming immediately too easy, boring, or mindlessly repetitious.) Nice touches like that are nice, but they can wait. Let's stay focused for a bit.

Mods and Game Difficulty

Mad Pirate

Magnificent bastard

Landlubber

Freebooter

Freebooter

Landlubber

Freebooter

Landlubber

Freebooter

Navigation Officer

Magnificent bastard

Magnificent bastard

Navigation Officer

Magnificent bastard

Privateer

Freebooter

Magnificent bastard

Mad Pirate

Magnificent bastard

Freebooter