Guide New complete guide for ships on POTC New Horizons

[HellSailor]

Thanks a lot! Unfortunately I can't put the three images of the Fluyt of War at the same time, so I will choose the blue-topped one, which appears to more nations, as you said, and the original Dutch painting.

Besides that, tomorrow I will upload again another Beta version of the guide, when I finish checking again for mistakes and misspellings. If nothing else is said, then I think we can safely say it will be the final version of the guide for Build 14 Final.

 

[HellSailor]

So I have gathered the data for the shipyard upgrades, and before I want to decide if to include it on my guide, I first want to make sure it's all fine.

There are eight shipyard upgrades, and here it is what each one of them do. Correct me if I'm wrong. The changes they do are based on the stock values of the ship. The percentages shown are the maximum percentage increases possible for each upgrade.

Reinforced Hull: +10% Hull HP, +1 Maximum Caliber Level. Non-removable after its installment (although you can delete that if you lay up the ship when berthing it at shipyards).
Corsair Refit: -5% Hull HP, +20% Cargo Capacity, between 5-15% speed increase (tested value is around 10%), between 5-15% turn increase (tested value is around 10-15%). Non-removable after its installment (although you can delete that if you lay up the ship when berthing it at shipyards).
Copper Plating: +5% Speed (tested value is 0,8%), +2% turn increase.
Bronze Cannons: +10% accuracy to normal cannons, -10% reload time. x2 Fragility of cannons to be knocked out in combat.
Bronze Chasers: +10% accuracy, +10% range?, +8% Sail Crit to enemy ships, +5% Mast Crit to enemy ships.
Cotton Sails: +5% Speed (tested value is 0,32%), -10% Sail Damage Received.
Long Top-Masts: +10% Speed (tested value is 5,6%). +4% Sail and Mast Crit Received from enemy ships.
Stays: +5% Turn (tested value is 2,15%), better upwind performance, +10% better angle to sail upwind?

 

[Grey Roger]

Thanks a lot! Unfortunately I can't put the three images of the Fluyt of War at the same time, so I will choose the blue-topped one, which appears to more nations, as you said, and the original Dutch painting.

That's fine. I had to make interface pictures for both the new versions anyway, so I simply posted both of them to give you full choice of what to include.

Upgrades: according to "InternalSettings.h":
Corsair Refit give -5% - -7% Hull HP, +10% - +2-% Cargo Capacity, +5% - +15% Speed, +5% - +15% Turn Rate
Copper Plate give 0% - +5% Speed, 0% - 2% Turn Rate
Bronze Chasers don't appear to affect range but do improve the chances of sail and mast crits as you have listed
Cotton Sails, Long Top-Masts: speed boost is between 0% and the top percent.
Stays: Turn 0% - 5%, Closest Point 0% - -10%

The actual values are randomly set somewhere between the maximum and minimum, so there's little point in giving the tested values. In fact, you could save game immediately before talking to the shipyard owner, buy an upgrade, reload the savegame, buy the same upgrade, and get different values. Also, I believe the changes are based on your ship's values, including national modifiers plus randomisation but not including battle damage. So a British ship which has +15% HP due to national modifier won't have it reduced to +10% by getting Reinforced Hull!

 

[HellSailor]

BETA version of the Complete Ship Guide for Pirates of the Caribbean: New Horizons now released! (Release Date: 31st January 2022).

Check the first post for downloading it. This release marks almost the end for the possible updates for my guide. I'm still doubting if I should add the shipyard upgrades effects on ships, since I think it could be useful for people to understand what the upgrades especifically do on ships. I would like to hear your opinions on this. If nothing is said, I will leave it as it is, with no further changes with the exception of fixes and error checks.

You can now check it out, and give feedback on what do you think of it. Advices, suggestions and recommendations are welcomed for improving this guide.

 

[HellSailor]

Corsair Refit give -5% - -7% Hull HP, +10% - +2-% Cargo Capacity, +5% - +15% Speed, +5% - +15% Turn Rate

Cargo capacity does increase up to a maximum of 20% when applied. I checked that with the stock 'Mefisto', in which its cargo capacity increased from base value of 2000 to 2400.

Stays: Turn 0% - 5%, Closest Point 0% - -10%

What is 'Closest Point'?

The actual values are randomly set somewhere between the maximum and minimum, so there's little point in giving the tested values. In fact, you could save game immediately before talking to the shipyard owner, buy an upgrade, reload the savegame, buy the same upgrade, and get different values. Also, I believe the changes are based on your ship's values, including national modifiers plus randomisation but not including battle damage. So a British ship which has +15% HP due to national modifier won't have it reduced to +10% by getting Reinforced Hull!

Yes, I wrote it in a way that could be misleading or confusing. When I said:

The changes they do are based on the stock values of the ship.

I meant taking into account the national modifiers as well.

Nevertheless, thanks for the information. I will think about whether I should include it, or leave it as it is.

 

[Grey Roger]

Cargo capacity does increase up to a maximum of 20% when applied. I checked that with the stock 'Mefisto', in which its cargo capacity increased from base value of 2000 to 2400.

Oops, typing mistake on my part. That should have been "+10% - +20% Cargo Capacity", not "+10% - +2-% Cargo Capacity".

What is 'Closest Point'?

Something to do with how close you can sail to the wind. I've no idea exactly how it works. The variables used by the shipyard, and defined in "InternalSettings.h", are SSTACKRANGEMAX and SSTACKRANGEMIN. And "Ships_init.c" sets an attribute to ships, "refShip.ClosestPoint". I'm guessing by the fact that "InternalSettings" sets SSTACKRANGEMAX to 0 and SSTACKRANGEMIN to -0.1, that lower "ClosestPoint" means better ability to sail close to the wind.

Whether you include a section on upgrades is up to you. My only suggestion remains, if you choose to add it, don't include test values, just include maximum and minimum values, and a note that your actual upgrade will be somewhere between them. One thing I've just found by looking at the code which applies the upgrade is that you can get a boost based on your "Sailing" and "Luck" skills. The boost is not proportional to your skill; there's a random check against your skill and if it passes, you get the boost. Speed, turning, hull HP, sail HP and cargo capacity all make the checks. So you should get better results from buying upgrades later in the game when your skills have improved.

Edit: one further minor addition may be needed to the Guide. The section on "Specific Ships per Sidequests", part 7: "Sink the Pirate Corvette", has missed out the "Golden Age of Piracy" ship. This is the pirate version of the tier 4 "Kreyser" class frigate.

 

[HellSailor]

Something to do with how close you can sail to the wind. I've no idea exactly how it works. The variables used by the shipyard, and defined in "InternalSettings.h", are SSTACKRANGEMAX and SSTACKRANGEMIN. And "Ships_init.c" sets an attribute to ships, "refShip.ClosestPoint". I'm guessing by the fact that "InternalSettings" sets SSTACKRANGEMAX to 0 and SSTACKRANGEMIN to -0.1, that lower "ClosestPoint" means better ability to sail close to the wind.

I understand. What I decided to put was the percentages for Closest Point, and then add in parenthesis "better upwind performance", so that is more clear for people.

Whether you include a section on upgrades is up to you. My only suggestion remains, if you choose to add it, don't include test values, just include maximum and minimum values, and a note that your actual upgrade will be somewhere between them. One thing I've just found by looking at the code which applies the upgrade is that you can get a boost based on your "Sailing" and "Luck" skills. The boost is not proportional to your skill; there's a random check against your skill and if it passes, you get the boost. Speed, turning, hull HP, sail HP and cargo capacity all make the checks. So you should get better results from buying upgrades later in the game when your skills have improved.

Do not worry, I decided to do what you suggested after your response. I wrote only the minimum and maximum values. The rest of your paragraph, about the "boost" with Sailing and Luck Skills, I decided not to include it, as it is very randomised, and makes thnigs more complicated to understand.

Edit: one further minor addition may be needed to the Guide. The section on "Specific Ships per Sidequests", part 7: "Sink the Pirate Corvette", has missed out the "Golden Age of Piracy" ship. This is the pirate version of the tier 4 "Kreyser" class frigate.

I left it originally on purpose, since I didn't know the answer for it. I will include it for next update. Thanks a lot for your answer

Now here it is both of the files updated. One of them does not have the shipyard upgrades (Called Beta FINAL); the other one has (Called Beta 1st Feb). Let me know what do you think about the inclusion of the shipyard upgrades.

 

[HellSailor]

So while I was playing until just recently, I found something quite interesting. When I was at a shipyard, I found the four models of the Lugger ship class (if there isn't a 5th one) by coincidence. It seems that there is some differences regarding one of the different models, which do not appear on my guide, nor on the data extracted from Ships_init.c (apologies in advance for the errors of the last two screenshots).






The 'Lugger1' seems to have the characteristics of a Model 1 Lugger, with characterstics of Personal Design, regardless its labelled British design. That should NOT happen.
'Lugger2' has the characteristics of a Model 1 Lugger with proper British design taken into account. This model is correct. This is the vanilla lugger of the stock game.
'Lugger3' has identical characteristics as the previous one, with randomisation taking place. This model is correct.
'Lugger4' is based on the Model 2 Lugger of my guide. The model and its characteristics are correct. Its more expensive than the others, as it should be.

This means that 'Lugger1' does not follow the same rules that is supposed to follow. Why is this happening?

 

[Grey Roger]

From "Ships_init.c", "Lugger1" has maximum crew 24, minimum crew 5, capacity 800, speed 14, turn 50 (in "Arcade" mode). British modifiers give 5% less maximum crew and 5% more minimum crew, which would drop the maximum crew by 1 and do nothing to minimum crew. British ships get +20% capacity, bringing it up to 816; and they get 5% boost to speed, which would add 0.7. Your "Lugger1" has maximum crew 24, minimum crew 5, capacity 814, speed 13.94, turn 51.12. I don't know the range of randomisation off-hand, but I'd say that this one got back the 1 crew that it lost to British design, lost out on capacity and speed, and gained on turn rate.

Your "Lugger2" is more expensive because it has an upgrade. That is also why it is significantly faster than "Lugger1".

As for whether to include the shipyard upgrades in the guide, that's up to you - I'll add it into the "Documentation" folder of the next update whichever way you decide. My own thought is that since you've already done the work, you may as well include it, rather than throwing that work away. It may also be useful to players because the shipyard gives a general description of each upgrade but not specific numbers, so your guide may help players to decide whether those percentages are worth the money and the 1 day wait.

But I did notice this in the entry for "Dauntless class 1st Rate (HMS Dauntless)":
"It is based on the real Dauntless, being the Royal Navy’s most impressive warship." It's actually based on the film ship. I'd interpret "real Dauntless" as "HMS Dauntless in real life". As far as I can tell from both Wikipedia and Three Decks, the first HMS Dauntless was launched in 1804 and was a sloop of war. (You can get Dauntless by FreePlaying as Norrington, Groves or Gillette provided you either pick a starting model ranked at least Commodore, or by FreePlaying the same characters at lower level and working your way up to Commodore.)

The game's "Endeavour" currently has 103 guns, not 108. But don't change the Guide to reflect that! Having taken an interest in "Dauntless" and "Endeavour" as a result of spotting the above, and wondering how they differ, I had a look at them. "Ships_init.c" gives "Endeavour" 108 guns but there are only 103 firing locators on the model, so that's how many cannons you can actually fire. And that's because five locators are missing on the port side. So once again, as well as being a worthwhile work in its own right, your Guide has led to another beneficial side effect - a corrected version of "HMS_Endeavour.gm" is also going into the next update, with its full 108 firing locators.

Another side effect is that, having been inspired to add a new non-Dutch medium pinnace, I've now made a new merchant pinnace. The existing one has the standard Dutch green and red scheme, though it is available to other nations besides Holland. So here's one using another colour scheme I found in GoF:

Since the original is available to several nations, this one will be as well, but Holland has a much smaller chance of getting this one while everyone else gets a reduced chance for the original.

 

[HellSailor]

From "Ships_init.c", "Lugger1" has maximum crew 24, minimum crew 5, capacity 800, speed 14, turn 50 (in "Arcade" mode). British modifiers give 5% less maximum crew and 5% more minimum crew, which would drop the maximum crew by 1 and do nothing to minimum crew. British ships get +20% capacity, bringing it up to 816; and they get 5% boost to speed, which would add 0.7. Your "Lugger1" has maximum crew 24, minimum crew 5, capacity 814, speed 13.94, turn 51.12. I don't know the range of randomisation off-hand, but I'd say that this one got back the 1 crew that it lost to British design, lost out on capacity and speed, and gained on turn rate.

I think the data is wrong. If "Lugger1" plays by the same rules as the other luggers, with national modifiers taken into consideration, this would be the data that has to show (in parentheses the data with British design):

HP: 600 (690)
Speed: 14.0 (14.7)
Cargo: 800 (960)
Maximum Crew: 24 (23)

Unless there is a massive randomisation taking place, which I highly doubt, the values shown on "Lugger1" of my screenshot do not follow the rules. Its cargo should be around 960, not 800; Its HP should be around 690, not 600; and its speed on "Arcade" should be closer to 14.7, not 14.0. Please compare the values I mentioned to the values shown on the screenshot of the ship.
I think there could be one of two issues here: The first one would be, as I said in my previous post, that this specific model of lugger shown in the screenshot has fixed characteristics, so no national modifiers can be taken into consideration, and thus, displaying always Personal design characteristics, rather than other nation ones. The second possible issue, less likely, is that the "Lugger1" is from a different "name code", not being "Lugger1", "Lugger2", or "LuggerCT", that does not appear on Ships_init.c. This could have different characteristics, inferior to the other luggers.

As for whether to include the shipyard upgrades in the guide, that's up to you - I'll add it into the "Documentation" folder of the next update whichever way you decide. My own thought is that since you've already done the work, you may as well include it, rather than throwing that work away. It may also be useful to players because the shipyard gives a general description of each upgrade but not specific numbers, so your guide may help players to decide whether those percentages are worth the money and the 1 day wait.

In that case, following releases of my guide will include the Shipyard Upgrades chapter. That will be the base for future releases.

But I did notice this in the entry for "Dauntless class 1st Rate (HMS Dauntless)":
"It is based on the real Dauntless, being the Royal Navy’s most impressive warship." It's actually based on the film ship. I'd interpret "real Dauntless" as "HMS Dauntless in real life". As far as I can tell from both Wikipedia and Three Decks, the first HMS Dauntless was launched in 1804 and was a sloop of war. (You can get Dauntless by FreePlaying as Norrington, Groves or Gillette provided you either pick a starting model ranked at least Commodore, or by FreePlaying the same characters at lower level and working your way up to Commodore.)

Huh. Can you believe I thought the "Endeavour" seen on the third film of Pirates of the Caribbean was the "Dauntless"? They looked pretty much similar. I will fix this issue and clarify it.

Another side effect is that, having been inspired to add a new non-Dutch medium pinnace, I've now made a new merchant pinnace. The existing one has the standard Dutch green and red scheme, though it is available to other nations besides Holland. So here's one using another colour scheme I found in GoF:

Since the original is available to several nations, this one will be as well, but Holland has a much smaller chance of getting this one while everyone else gets a reduced chance for the original.

That's looks very cool! I agree that the new one should be available to all nations, but less likely to Holland, and vice versa; The original one should be mostly available to Holland, but less likely to other nations. I will include this screenshot interface for my guide.

 

[Grey Roger]

I think there could be one of two issues here: The first one would be, as I said in my previous post, that this specific model of lugger shown in the screenshot has fixed characteristics, so no national modifiers can be taken into consideration, and thus, displaying always Personal design characteristics, rather than other nation ones.

Yes, you're right. Looking closely at the screenshot and comparing it to the interface picture file, then looking up "pictures.ini" to see which ship corresponds to that picture, it appears to be "LuggerCT". And that one does indeed include a line in its definition in "Ships_init.c" to prevent national modifiers:

refShip.noNatStatMod = true;

I don't see any other reference to 'noNatStatMod' in "Ships_init.c" so no other ships should behave like this. (Several other ships have a 'unique' attribute set so that they don't get national modifiers or randomisation, what you see in "Ships_init.c" is exactly what you get.)

Huh. Can you believe I thought the "Endeavour" seen on the third film of Pirates of the Caribbean was the "Dauntless"? They looked pretty much similar. I will fix this issue and clarify it.

Yes, I can believe it because I thought they were the same apart from the name on the stern. That is why I looked at the models in detail to confirm it, which is how I found that "Endeavour" was missing five firing locators on the port side. (Another difference I found is that "Dauntless" has two sails on its bowsprit and "Endeavour" only has one.)

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Yes, I can believe it because I thought they were the same apart from the name on the stern.

If I recall, they also both had different staircases leading up to the stern deck.
The Dauntless should have two smaller ones on the side; and Endeavour one larger in the centre.

 

[Grey Roger]

There are some other minor differences, but the staircase isn't one of them. Dauntless to the left, Endeavour to the right:

Dauntless has a lighter deck and dark blue hull stripes. Endeavour has a darker deck, black hull stripes, and a couple more guns. (The other extra guns are where the forecastle would be if this were an older style ship with a forecastle.)

 

[HellSailor]

Yes, you're right. Looking closely at the screenshot and comparing it to the interface picture file, then looking up "pictures.ini" to see which ship corresponds to that picture, it appears to be "LuggerCT". And that one does indeed include a line in its definition in "Ships_init.c" to prevent national modifiers:

refShip.noNatStatMod = true;

I don't see any other reference to 'noNatStatMod' in "Ships_init.c" so no other ships should behave like this. (Several other ships have a 'unique' attribute set so that they don't get national modifiers or randomisation, what you see in "Ships_init.c" is exactly what you get.)

As I thought. Why is this here in the first place? I think this should be fixed for next patch.

I understand for example the Animist ships having the values of the Personal design, having a labelled Pirate design, as indeed, they are special and unique pirate Ships; one of a kind. But for the "LuggerCT"? That's bizarre.

 

[Grey Roger]

I don't know why "LuggerCT" has been set that way, but someone evidently went to a lot of trouble to add that attribute and then modify the ship stat code to obey it, just for this ship. Presumably whoever it was had a reason. @Pieter Boelen, have you any idea who added "LuggerCT" and why it was made exempt from national mods?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

There are some other minor differences, but the staircase isn't one of them. Dauntless to the left, Endeavour to the right:

Ah: my memory was mixing things up.
The Endeavour/Dauntless are derived from actual HMS Victory.
And it is the Victory that has those staircases on the side.

Also noticed just now the position of the steering wheel is one deck higher on Dauntless/Endeavour too.
Which is another point where realism seems a bit curious.
Given the ropes and pulleys that would need to be positioned below it, I suppose you wouldn't want that wheel so high up.
On the other hand, if it's down below you don't see it in much of the film shots.
And people like seeing steering wheels.

I don't know why "LuggerCT" has been set that way, but someone evidently went to a lot of trouble to add that attribute and then modify the ship stat code to obey it, just for this ship. Presumably whoever it was had a reason. @Pieter Boelen, have you any idea who added "LuggerCT" and why it was made exempt from national mods?

If I recall, "CT" stands for @CatalinaThePirate .

 

[Grey Roger]

Also noticed just now the position of the steering wheel is one deck higher on Dauntless/Endeavour too.

Not on our models. Both of them have it one level higher than "HMS_Victory", and that's because the aft superstructure of "HMS_Victory" has been cut back to produce "HMS_Dauntless" and "HMS_Endeavour". That single, central staircase is where "HMS_Victory" has its wheel. So on both "HMS_Dauntless" and "HMS_Endeavour", the wheel is moved up to the quarterdeck just in front of the mizzen mast.

If I recall, "CT" stands for @CatalinaThePirate .

She hasn't been around for ages so I can't ask her why she immunised her lugger against national modifiers. So, do you reckon there's any valid reason to keep the attribute, or can we remove it and let "LuggerCT" get national modifiers like all other non-uniqe ships?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Not on our models. Both of them have it one level higher than "HMS_Victory", and that's because the aft superstructure of "HMS_Victory" has been cut back to produce "HMS_Dauntless" and "HMS_Endeavour". That single, central staircase is where "HMS_Victory" has its wheel. So on both "HMS_Dauntless" and "HMS_Endeavour", the wheel is moved up to the quarterdeck just in front of the mizzen mast.

I meant on Victory, the wheel is on the lower deck of the side staircases, "hiding" behind the mast.
On Endeavour/Dauntless, it is at the top of the central staircase in plain view.

She hasn't been around for ages so I can't ask her why she immunised her lugger against national modifiers. So, do you reckon there's any valid reason to keep the attribute, or can we remove it and let "LuggerCT" get national modifiers like all other non-uniqe ships?

Depends on the extent to which we want to honour Catalina's original intentions.
But I suppose the actual values might've been changed over the years anyway?

 

[HellSailor]

Just an update for Nigel Blythe's sidequest: The first enemy ship you will encounter on "Napoleonics" period is a Corsair Frigate ('Aurora' Frigate), just like in "Colonial Powers". Therefore, we can safely say that from "Colonial Powers" onwards, you will encounter this Corsair Frigate. For this sidequest, it needs to be confirmed which ship class you will face in "Golden Age of Piracy" period. For now, it is presumed to be a Light Fluyt-of-War, although it isn't specified.

 

[Grey Roger]

Yes, the ship is a Light Fluyt of War in all periods up to "Golden Age of Piracy", and a Corsair Frigate in all periods from "Colonial Powers" onwards. The second enemy ship, which Blythe attacks near Bonaire, should be a sloop of war, specifically the pirate version listed in the Guide as "Sloop-of-War (Vanilla model)", regardless of period.