Fixed Sea Relations: Behaviour for Recognizing False Flags

[Pieter Boelen]

You don't happen to have any save or log files to go with that anymore, do you?

If you can get recognised, that is good. If it happens too often, it isn't good.
It should also not consistently happen. The chance is based on distance, visibility, skills and the time that you stay close to potential enemies.

 

[HellSailor]

Unfortunately no; as I said, it was a previous version, so I deleted all files that could go with it. Anyway, I am going to try this soon with my pirate free play storyline.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Thanks! Any time you notice something worth mentioning, please post it.
Also any time your false flag is recognised plus your skills and fame level at the the so we can get an idea of how often/not often it works.
More feedback is always welcome on this one! : cat

 

[HellSailor]

Here is something I would like to post to corroborate if this is not a bug.

I got a LoM from Britain while I was a "Merchant" class. I decided to sail to Sao Jorge to sell gold and silver. I hoisted a false flag (The portuguese one), before being in the range of the island. I haven't got any promotion title yet and I had "Neutral" as my personal reputation. I talked to the owner of the store and he discovered me, refusing to trade with me, as I show below in a screenshot.



Also, one thing I will remark: I haven't seen the second dialogue to the player in this case since Beta 3.1

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I got a LoM from Britain while I was a "Merchant" class. I decided to sail to Sao Jorge to sell gold and silver. I hoisted a false flag (The portuguese one), before being in the range of the island. I haven't got any promotion title yet and I had "Neutral" as my personal reputation.

I take it that Portugal is at war with England, right? If so, you need to have a reputation of at least Matey to be guaranteed to be able to trade.
See here for details: http://www.piratesahoy.net/threads/...th-wary-neutral-characters.25796/#post-516772

If you use a false flag, a merchant MAY discover it and will remember that he discovered it afterwards.
The chance of being discovered like this depends on your fame level (from F2>Nations Relations) and skills.

So this may be correct. If you reload a save from before he recognized you, does he ALWAYS recognize you?
Or were you just unlucky?

Also, one thing I will remark: I haven't seen the second dialogue to the player in this case since Beta 3.1

It has always been there, but only appears if your Commerce skill is greater than 5, if I recall.

 

[HellSailor]

I take it that Portugal is at war with England, right? If so, you need to have a reputation of at least Matey to be guaranteed to be able to trade.
See here for details: http://www.piratesahoy.net/threads/...th-wary-neutral-characters.25796/#post-516772

If you use a false flag, a merchant MAY discover it and will remember that he discovered it afterwards.
The chance of being discovered like this depends on your fame level (from F2>Nations Relations) and skills.

So this may be correct. If you reload a save from before he recognized you, does he ALWAYS recognize you?
Or were you just unlucky?

Now this time I tried to talk with him and he didn't discover me. I was able to trade with him without problems.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Now this time I tried to talk with him and he didn't discover me. I was able to trade with him without problems.

Ah, that's good; you were probably just unlucky there. It is a random chance, so that can always happen.

 

[HellSailor]

False alarm then and not a bug

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Get into a fight with the wrong nation and suddenly it becomes more difficult to get to somewhere you need to go.

Is that related to my recent changes to Nations Relations and such? If so, please provide more details!
I'd really quite like to hear how those changes affect actual gameplay.

 

[Talisman]

Is that related to my recent changes to Nations Relations and such? If so, please provide more details!
I'd really quite like to hear how those changes affect actual gameplay.

Playing in Arcade mode

Jack Sparrow is British - have used false flags - to sail to Martinique and Puerto Rico.

In Justine La Moigne sailed out of St Pierre, Martinique with Capt Maggee going to Havana . As I left St Pierre Port 2 French ships there recoginsed me and started firing - I sailed away as quickly as possible without returning fire. Capt Maggee however returned fire, then the Fort joined in and he nearly got sunk. I only just managed to get to the world map in time.

On a couple of occasions using a french Flag and leaving San Juan, Puerto Rico - the Fort after letting me sail past it a little way suddenly recognises me and starts firing. I managed to get away without to much damage on both occasions - I did not return Fire - just kept in character and ran.

So I have been careful to try and avoid unnecessary fights - since I don't want to spend a fortune with the diplomats - OR have Cutler Beckett chasing after me as a Traitor to the British ( no point in giving him any more reasons to kill me )

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Let me see if I can explain any of that....

Playing in Arcade mode

At the moment as far as relations are concerned, there is no difference between realism modes.
I have asked for feedback on that though to determine if a "simplified behaviour toggle" would be required.
See here: http://www.piratesahoy.net/threads/ingame-explanation-of-nation-relations.25516/

Jack Sparrow is British - have used false flags - to sail to Martinique and Puerto Rico.

In Justine La Moigne sailed out of St Pierre, Martinique with Capt Maggee going to Havana . As I left St Pierre Port 2 French ships there recoginsed me and started firing - I sailed away as quickly as possible without returning fire. Capt Maggee however returned fire, then the Fort joined in and he nearly got sunk. I only just managed to get to the world map in time.

Did you actually get the "you were recognized" message on the screen or in compile.log?
I've actually been quite curious to hear if false flag recognizing still happens at all or if my changes have worked SO well that it no longer happens.
So if you DO have genuine "false flag recognizing" occurring there, I'd like to see the compile.log files to confirm that it behaves like it should.
And if it WASN'T the actual deliberate "false flag recognizing" function that caused those hostile ships, then what did? Compile.log should indicate that as well, I hope.

There is also the query of whether the chance of this happening is actually balanced and makes sense.
Basically the chance should INCREASE with your Fame Level (so what is yours?) and DECREASE again through your skills (mainly Luck).

Firing on ships that are already hostile should do nothing with your nation relations.
That is only affected when you sink or capture a ship. And if France is already hostile to you, it doesn't matter if they become MORE hostile.

On a couple of occasions using a french Flag and leaving San Juan, Puerto Rico - the Fort after letting me sail past it a little way suddenly recognises me and starts firing. I managed to get away without to much damage on both occasions - I did not return Fire - just kept in character and ran.

France is friendly to Spain, I assume then?
Indeed the "false flag recognizing" is NOT done when you first enter 3D sailing mode, but IS checked every 1-2 minutes after that.
So you'd be "safe" for at least the first minute before the fort opens fire. That should not actually be a problem.
What MIGHT be a problem though is that apparently you are being recognized so often.
I'd quite like to figure out why that happens and if it is indeed intentional.

So I have been careful to try and avoid unnecessary fights - since I don't want to spend a fortune with the diplomats - OR have Cutler Beckett chasing after me as a Traitor to the British ( no point in giving him any more reasons to kill me )

Why are you afraid you'll be considered a traitor by the British?
To get England hostile to you, you actually need to sink/capture English ships
Though I can't remember now what happens when you are friendly to England, but France isn't, you're flying a French flag and encounter an English ship that should be friendly to you, but isn't based on your flag.
It could be that England WOULD turn hostile to you when you fire on them then, but I'd have to check that.

That is something that can be changed to something of "-1" reputation for each cannonball hit but no change to nation relations.
I think that might already be the case, but I'm not 100% sure. I'll check....

If you fear being considered a traitor while ASHORE in British ports, that will happen as soon as the game considers you a "pirate".
The ingame "Nations Relations" book should explain the circumstances where that can happen.
You can tell if it happens from your Captain Type in F2>Nations Relations and your Served Nation marked in YELLOW in F2>QuestBook.
But that can happen even if you don't touch any English ships, but DO act as a pirate towards French ones.

Does any the above make sense to you? I most definitely appreciate any and all feedback you might have.
As I've said elsewhere as well: This is all really quite new and I expect that some fine-tuning based on actually gameplay will be needed.

That being said, if everything works well AND this "forces" you to actually accurate 'play the role of Jack Sparrow' by avoiding piracy, it would serve its purpose.

 

[Talisman]

Did you actually get the "you were recognized" message on the screen or in compile.log?
I've actually been quite curious to hear if false flag recognizing still happens at all or if my changes have worked SO well that it no longer happens.
So if you DO have genuine "false flag recognizing" occurring there, I'd like to see the compile.log files to confirm that it behaves like it should.
And if it WASN'T the actual deliberate "false flag recognizing" function that caused those hostile ships, then what did? Compile.log should indicate that as well, I hope.

Played through this again - no french ships near port this time - but Fort did recognise us - got log message - compile & system files attached

You can use the Martinique save in this post to test this if you want :- Fix in Progress - Jack Sparrow - Capt Magee not appearing in Havana Port | PiratesAhoy! - Pirate Games | Reviews | News | Forum

There is also the query of whether the chance of this happening is actually balanced and makes sense.
Basically the chance should INCREASE with your Fame Level (so what is yours?) and DECREASE again through your skills (mainly Luck).

I am Unrecognised - see F2 >Nations Relations screen shots here:- Unconfirmed Bug - Turks Fort won't recognise my Pirate Flag | PiratesAhoy! - Pirate Games | Reviews | News | Forum

France is friendly to Spain, I assume then?

Yes - see F2> Nations Relations screenshots ( as above)

Indeed the "false flag recognizing" is NOT done when you first enter 3D sailing mode, but IS checked every 1-2 minutes after that.
So you'd be "safe" for at least the first minute before the fort opens fire. That should not actually be a problem.
What MIGHT be a problem though is that apparently you are being recognized so often.
I'd quite like to figure out why that happens and if it is indeed intentional.

This time when I played the Martinique bit through again the Fort immediately recognized us as soon as I went to 3D sailing

Why are you afraid you'll be considered a traitor by the British?
To get England hostile to you, you actually need to sink/capture English ships
Though I can't remember now what happens when you are friendly to England, but France isn't, you're flying a French flag and encounter an English ship that should be friendly to you, but isn't based on your flag.
It could be that England WOULD turn hostile to you when you fire on them then, but I'd have to check that.

I remember when I was playing the Sea Hawk story ( I was English ) - Attacked a dutch ship using a False French / Spanish flag - can't remember which they were both hostile to England - Dutch were allies of England - after capturing the Dutch ship my relations with England deteriorated badly. .

I also did not want a lot of hassle getting in /out of Port Royle to see Beckett and before doing the Muscetto Cove job for Beckett did not want to make England hostile ( I would have had to go through the jungle to resupply in St Johns Antigua - since taking on the Antigua Fort is not something you do with just the Wicked Wench

If you fear being considered a traitor while ASHORE in British ports, that will happen as soon as the game considers you a "pirate".
The ingame "Nations Relations" book should explain the circumstances where that can happen.
You can tell if it happens from your Captain Type in F2>Nations Relations and your Served Nation marked in YELLOW in F2>QuestBook.
But that can happen even if you don't touch any English ships, but DO act as a pirate towards French ones.

The problem is that people who just play a story - because that is what they want to do may not go to the right person to collect the book - and even if they do they may ignore any dialog that gives the book to them and just play the story dialogs. That is the way people are. . Since I am just playing the Story I am not paying that much attention to the Served Nation stuff.

Does any the above make sense to you? I most definitely appreciate any and all feedback you might have.
As I've said elsewhere as well: This is all really quite new and I expect that some fine-tuning based on actually gameplay will be needed.

Yes - I can follow most of it - though it does look complicated when it is all written down.

That being said, if everything works well AND this "forces" you to actually accurate 'play the role of Jack Sparrow' by avoiding piracy, it would serve its purpose.

- Agreed - I have only attacked 2 ships ( both pirates ) in this game - when I was working to get money for Cutler Beckett - probably why my relations are slightly worse with the pirates here :- Unconfirmed Bug - Turks Fort won't recognise my Pirate Flag | PiratesAhoy! - Pirate Games | Reviews | News | Forum

 

[Pieter Boelen]

This time when I played the Martinique bit through again the Fort immediately recognized us as soon as I went to 3D sailing

Same here. Checking it now....

I remember when I was playing the Sea Hawk story ( I was English ) - Attacked a dutch ship using a False French / Spanish flag - can't remember which they were both hostile to England - Dutch were allies of England - after capturing the Dutch ship my relations with England deteriorated badly. .

Ah yes, attacking any allies of other nations does affect those nations' relations.
I could imagine that being a nasty surprise if you didn't know about that beforehand. Though probably IS realistic.

However, that only happens if you sink/capture such a ship, not for firing in self-defence and, for example, dis-masting them so you can escape.
So basically it might be a good idea to double-check F2>Nations Relations before dealing any fatal blows to ships.
After all, you might also be caught out if your false flag was recognized and you didn't change flags to an actual hostile one afterwards.
Though I'm not 100% sure that part works as intended as I had to apply a bit of a wonky method for that.

I also did not want a lot of hassle getting in /out of Port Royle to see Beckett

I'm not sure I follow you there.... you were still friendly with England, were you not?
Or was this still because of your act against that Dutch ship?

The problem is that people who just play a story - because that is what they want to do may not go to the right person to collect the book - and even if they do they may ignore any dialog that gives the book to them and just play the story dialogs. That is the way people are. . Since I am just playing the Story I am not paying that much attention to the Served Nation stuff.

Maybe when I have a questbook entry linked to reading that book, they will take more notice? I'll be trying that anyway.
That being said, I'm quite willing to make simplified functionality for Arcade Game Mode and/or a separate InternalSettings.h toggle.
This could then be used by those who want to focus purely on the story and not worry too much about the dynamic elements in the game world.
If you have any pointers on what is perhaps a bit "too much" in this new realistic behaviour, I'd definitely welcome it.

- Agreed - I have only attacked 2 ships ( both pirates ) in this game - when I was working to get money for Cutler Beckett - probably why my relations are slightly worse with the pirates here :- Unconfirmed Bug - Turks Fort won't recognise my Pirate Flag | PiratesAhoy! - Pirate Games | Reviews | News | Forum

LOL! International Relations seem to be quite a major deterrent to violence then!
Actually a good thing, as that is obviously supposed to happen even in real life as well.
(Even if it doesn't always work out that way.... )

Any pirate ships are easy targets, but anything from another nation might be tricky due to alliances.
You really need to pay attention to F2>Nation Relations for those. Though at least for Jack Sparrow those relations are fixed.
It is worse in Free Play where they can change at any time!

But if you truly want to get into sea battles without fear of international problems, you need to be either a privateer, navy officer or already a pirate.

 

[Talisman]

I'm not sure I follow you there.... you were still friendly with England, were you not?
Or was this still because of your act against that Dutch ship?

Different Quests/ Stories - the dutch ship is in the Sea Hawk Story - the next paragraph - going in/out of Port Royale is for the Jack Sparrow story

Sorry I was not very clear there.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Extract attached to your PROGRAM folder to get the extra details in compile.log, then keep an eye on how often your false flag is recognized and, when that happens, post compile.log .
For reference, this is the relevant function:

bool CheckForMainCharacterfalseflag(ref chr, float visibility_range, float ship_range)
{
   if (IsCompanion(chr))             return false; // Companions don't care
   if (CheckForPirateException(chr))       return false; // You are friendly to the pirates, flying a pirate flag and the town is tolerant of pirates

   ref PChar = GetMainCharacter();

   bool Recognized = false;
   float chance = 1 - (ship_range / visibility_range);
   float randVal = frnd();
   if (SeaAI_GetRelation(sti(chr.index), sti(PChar.index)) != RELATION_ENEMY && GetNationRelation(PERSONAL_NATION, sti(chr.nation)) == RELATION_ENEMY)
   {
     if (ship_range < visibility_range)
     {
       chance = 0.5 + chance; // 0.5 will be decreased if you are too easily recognized
       chance = chance * GetChanceDetectFalseFlag();
     //   chance = 1.0;
       if(randVal <= chance)
       {
         Trace("FLAGS: The " + GetMyShipNameShow(chr) + " has recognized our false " + GetNationDescByType(GetCurrentFlag()) + " flag at range=" + ship_range + " with visibility=" + visibility_range + ", chance=" + chance + " and frnd=" + randVal);
         Recognized = true;
         SetGroupHostile(chr, false); // They start firing on you, so it is no immediate betrayal
       }
     }
   }
   return Recognized;
}

Basically you should ONLY be recognized if that randVal is lower than or equal to the chance value that is being calculated.
Both those values should now be logged to compile.log so we can check if this was a valid recognizing action AND if both values seem reasonable.

Different Quests/ Stories - the dutch ship is in the Sea Hawk Story - the next paragraph - going in/out of Port Royale is for the Jack Sparrow story

Actually, you were more clear than I read it. I'm rather tired today, sorry....
So please disregard my confusion there. I do still wonder what you mean by "I also did not want a lot of hassle getting in /out of Port Royle to see Beckett"....

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Has anyone had the chance to get recognized with the above file yet?
This weekend I'll probably have time to make some further improvements, but I can't proceed without feedback to work with.

 

[HellSailor]

I'm sorry for not posting more here for a while about this thread, but the game was constantly crashing and I had to do a clean install, so I had to start from zero. I will try to test a bit more, but I have to say that from next week I won't be able to test more frequently because I will start university. I will only be able to test it on weekends.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I'm sorry for not posting more here for a while about this thread, but the game was constantly crashing and I had to do a clean install, so I had to start from zero. I will try to test a bit more, but I have to say that from next week I won't be able to test more frequently because I will start university. I will only be able to test it on weekends.

Weekends are generally the time that I'm not making changes, so that is actually a good time for testing.
I hope you'll still be able to give some (ANY!) feedback on this one though, as I would really, really like to close this issue after the several years we've had problems with this.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Extra information in the log files now included as per this update: Mod Release - Build 14 Beta 4 Internal WIP For Testing | PiratesAhoy!

Please continue using false flags and let me know if anything seems wrong with that or anything else related to relations!

 

[Levis]

@Pieter Boelen I was thinking about adding a perk called something like "disguiser" which will make the recognision chance lower. How difficult would it be to implement this? Is the chance or something like that calculated in a single function?