Included in Build Distinguish between different playstyles

[Grey Roger]

True. Real life does not have bonus points. And I'm not certain from either of those articles whether privateers got promotions or titles at all. What they got was rich from prize ships, though in reality you didn't sell a prize ship or cargo yourself. A privateer, like a naval ship, had to put the whole lot before an admiralty court, which would then dispose of the prize according to maritime law and then award you a share of the profits. If you hadn't followed the rules when taking the prize, the prize could be disallowed and you'd get nothing.

Still want to make letters of marque realistic?

Perhaps change the way bonus points are awarded so you only get points from the nation whose flag you are flying when you earn them. If I capture a ship while flying a British flag and that ship is an enemy of Britain, then it counts towards my promotion from Britain. It does not count towards my promotion from Holland even if I have a Dutch letter of marque as well and the ship is Holland's enemy too. I was claiming to be in Britain's service when I did it, so Britain is the one who rewards me. Of course, that could mess things up for anyone who likes flying a personal flag...

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Still want to make letters of marque realistic?

I don't. I just want to get things a little better than they are now.
Or at least sort out the biggest lapses of logic or things that impede gameplay.

 

[Mask]

Eh, couldn't you claim credit for both nations in reality? You can only take the captured ship and goods to one nation's port, but you can probably still keep enough evidence to get a bounty off a second or third nation?

 

[Grey Roger]

That's the point of taking multiple letters of marque.

Suggestion:
Start the player off with relations aligned to your starting nation. As far as anyone knows, you're a loyal citizen of that nation and will be treated as such. If variable relations are on, countries at war with yours will hate you, but if the nations make peace then they won't hate you any more.

If you take a single letter of marque then your relations are now aligned to the nation which issued it. You have switched to a different nation in an honourable way. If you tell the governor that you can no longer serve him, then get another letter of marque from another nation, the same happens - it's all clean and above board. Again, you can attack enemies of your chosen nation, they'll hate you as long as they're at war with your nation, and will revert to neutral if the nations make peace.

If you take a second letter of marque then your relations become independent, and additional letters of marque should cost extra. You're now not a loyal servant of any one nation, but a mercenary serving whoever pays you, so the governor wants a bit more financial assurance that you will indeed serve him. And because you're independent, relations do not revert to neutral when one of your nations makes peace with its enemy. This also means you can't make a particular nation hostile to you, then take a letter of marque to clear your relations. Once you're independent, you stay independent forever.

Raising a personal or pirate flag makes you independent at once. That includes starting the game with personal or pirate flag. That's for those people who don't want to be aligned to a nation at all.

Attacking a ship which is not an enemy of your nation also makes you independent. In fact, it should make you a pirate.

I don't know if any of that is practical, let alone whether any of the people who can actually code it would be interested, but there it is anyway...

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I don't have time to think this through properly, but my first impression is that your suggestion there sounds quite doable.
It would probably require a bit of figuring out, though. But shouldn't be impossible for the most part, I think.
Also gives more meaning to your chosen starting nation, since right now that just doesn't mean much of anything.

 

[Levis]

Okay here is a recap from what I've seen so far and I think is doable:

At Character selection:
You choose your background profession and startdate/location.
Also you choose if you want to do free play or a storyline.
The profession you pick depens with what kind of skills you start etc and how good you progress at certain skills. I think we should remove comissioned again. All characters will have a professionalnavy and professionalmerchant attribute. For storylines these can be set if they want. We could also enable it for certain characters for free play (say you pick nelson then it will be set). If these are set from the start a questbook entry will be made to tell you this.

At the start of the game:
When you take a difficulty higher then 2 you will be trown into the tales of the chevelier start, if you pick spain as start nation the gouvenor will intercept you after you escape the prisson and give you a pardon. For the lower level we use the tutorial from BBF or The standaard storyline.
All freeplay scenarios play in the default storyline. you can start the default storyline by leaving barbados but you dont have to continue on it if you want. We could use some of the modified sidequest from BBF if they fit better.

During the game:
You should be able to join the navy by going to the naval Admiral for the specific nation. This admiral can be in the HQ if this is present and else he might be found at the gouvenor. You can also join the merchantsguild by befriending the merchants enough. Both of these things should have specific advantages with them but also should restrict your options a bit. If you are a member of the merchants guild you relations should be friendly with everyone except the pirates. If you are joining the navy your relations are the same as the nation.
You can't join both of them but you should be able to leave the service once a while.
If you dont like those play styles you can get a letter of marque. Having 1 letter of marque gives you the same relations as that nation. You can do more as when in the navy but you have less advantages also. If you take multiple letters of marque you will have you personal relations with the different nations.
If you attack the ships of a nation you are working for as merchant or navy or when you have a LoM you will be branded a pirate and everyone will hate you except the pirates who will take you in. You can use the diplomat you regain trust with the nation. When branded a pirate you will leave the serivce 'bad' but you can still return if you pay them enough to show them you are to be trusted again.
We need to make sure we have some quests for all different playstyles and mayber restrict some sidequests for only specific playing types.

Navy Playstyle
Advantages:
- You wont have to pay for mooring or food and rum rations
- You can promote and receive new ships and officers
- You wont have to pay for hirering crew
- Pirates will be more sparse on the map cause they try to avoid you
- You can have unlimited amount of money with you without your crew complaining.

Disadvantages:
- You can't hire officers in the tavern etc
- You can't attack any ships that are neutral or friendly to the nation you are serving
- You should at least sink X pirate ships per X months else you get demoted or fired
- You can't sign articles with the crew
- Smuggling will be frowned upon and when caught you will leave 'bad'
- Hoisting a false flag will get you kicked out
- You can't use the diplomat

Merchant Playstyle
Advantages:
- You can have unlimited amount of money with you without your crew complaining.
- You will have a extra discount at shops for goods and food and rum will be very cheap everywhere
- Only pirates will be enemy with you
- Crew morale when hirering them will always be good
- You can get better ranks which allow for more discount etc
- You get a discount at the shipyard when repairing your ship

Disadvantages:
- You need to pay a heavy sum to even get in.
- You can only attack pirates and they will hunt you down even more cause you will always have good cargo according to them
- Smuggling will be frowned upon and when caught you will leave 'bad'
- Hoisting a false flag will get you kicked out
- You can't use the diplomat

Privateer Playstyle
Advantages:
- You will get special weapons at promotion and maybe 1 special ship on a very high rank.
- You can sink ships from nations without theire relation getting worse cause you have the nation relation
- You can use both articles and monthly pay depending on what you want.
- Pirates will spawn normally on the worldmap
- You wont have to pay mooring costs in the ports of nations you serve
- You can use the room in the tavern for free in the ports of nations you serve
- You can use the diplomat for everyone (if you have more then one LoM).

Disadvantages:
- The gouvenor will require you to pay a sum of money each X months to keep the letter of marque
- Hoisting the jolly roger will get you kicked from service

Pirate Playstyle
Advantages:
- You can join the pirate guild (or whatever its called)
- Pirates wont attack you.
- You can use the diplomat for everyone.
- You get a discount at buying gunpowder etc in the pirate store.

Disadvantages:
- Everyone is your enemy at the start
- Your crew will demand to sign articles very soon
- At the start selling at the pirate store wont give you much, but when your rank increases this will become better.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Sounds good.

Some comments:
- Choosing starting location isn't fully supported, though of course the Standard storyline does have that related to your starting nation
- A few days ago I thought that we should keep one "Free Play only" storyline. But I can't now remember why.
- Pirates appearing less on the worldmap as a navy officer would be a bit annoying, since you'd have less targets
- "You can have unlimited amount of money with you without your crew complaining" should apply to navy also since you can't sign articles and that doesn't make sense anyway
- Hoisting a false flag should ideally be allowed for navy officers, though you must not attack using it

 

[Levis]

it's all in this topic: http://www.piratesahoy.net/threads/additional-select-storyline-customization-options.24405/
But I prefer we go on here now to keep the discussion organised

 

[KillPhil]

1st of all: This sounds incredible awesome, and if we really get this to work, we somehow make a new game-sytle out of it - an unique gamestyle, since I never heard of such a variety DURING the game before

One little comment: Perhaps we should somehow modify your ship when you are a merchant.. like the corsair refit for the pirates.. e.g. your cargo is increased, while your cannons and max. crew holdings are decreased (Though that with the cannons could get difficult). Maybe we could also reduce the min. required crew for pirates and navy? Since they both are more likely 'trained' for emergency situations, or the overall sailing then 'normal' sailors (that makes at least sense for me). Also, maybe a pirate crew should be slightly stronger then merchant and privateer, but therefore harder to control.
That are just ideas that got into my mind during reading through this, if it is nonsense, please tell me^^

 

[Levis]

Sounds good.

Some comments:
- Choosing starting location isn't fully supported, though of course the Standard storyline does have that related to your starting nation

Thats what I mean, it should only be for Free play anyway.

- A few days ago I thought that we should keep one "Free Play only" storyline. But I can't now remember why.

mostly to clean up the selection screen and because then we can focus on it really good and make sure the sidequests work in all etc.

- Pirates appearing less on the worldmap as a navy officer would be a bit annoying, since you'd have less targets

thats the idea, it should be hard for you maybe even less pirates the higher your rank. Ofcourse it shouldn't be impossible, for example we could add something that you can ask pirates for info and if you have it you will encounter more or something like that.

- "You can have unlimited amount of money with you without your crew complaining" should apply to navy also since you can't sign articles and that doesn't make sense anyway

I agree

- Hoisting a false flag should ideally be allowed for navy officers, though you must not attack using it

hmmm....true, but if you get spotted there should be a higher penalty then or you should be easier to spot. Problem is mostly we now have uniforms on deck I believe so that should be fixed then also (or is it already?).
I still hope we can also introduce detection on land by guards, but I think that has to go to b15

 

[Levis]

1st of all: This sounds incredible awesome, and if we really get this to work, we somehow make a new game-sytle out of it - an unique gamestyle, since I never heard of such a variety DURING the game before

One little comment: Perhaps we should somehow modify your ship when you are a merchant.. like the corsair refit for the pirates.. e.g. your cargo is increased, while your cannons and max. crew holdings are decreased (Though that with the cannons could get difficult). Maybe we could also reduce the min. required crew for pirates and navy? Since they both are more likely 'trained' for emergency situations, or the overall sailing then 'normal' sailors (that makes at least sense for me). Also, maybe a pirate crew should be slightly stronger then merchant and privateer, but therefore harder to control.
That are just ideas that got into my mind during reading through this, if it is nonsense, please tell me^^

I like this.
I think we can make sure that pirate and navy have a strong melee crew. I believe I've seen the code for it and it shouldn't be that hard to implement some stuff there.
The refitting would be nice and I think it should be possible without to much of a hassle.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

One extra thought to consider: Right now shipyards do not sell navy ships to characters that do not have the required rank.
Should we rework that as well? Some potential options:
- Shipyards won't EVER even show navy ships, so the only general way to get them is through capturing.
- Have navy ships awarded to a commissioned navy player upon promotion for free.
- If you are a navy officer, have the shipyards sell navy ships of the appropriate rank to you FOR FREE or vastly reduced price.
This would allow even an admiral to return to a smaller ship if you see fit to do so.
- Any other thoughts?

hmmm....true, but if you get spotted there should be a higher penalty then or you should be easier to spot.

If I understood correctly from @Grey Roger, being spotted as flying a false flag should not be a huge issue. But attacking a ship while flying one should lose you your commission or LoM.
Not entirely sure how to handle that code-wise, but we can certainly hope.

Problem is mostly we now have uniforms on deck I believe so that should be fixed then also (or is it already?).

Only if you are a commissioned navy officer and not in 3D sailing mode. I'm not too fussed over that one.

I still hope we can also introduce detection on land by guards, but I think that has to go to b15

That would definitely be a big wish of mine. Hostile towns are just too friendly, really. Not that much risk in going there at all.

 

[Levis]

Hmmm.....as a commissioned officer I think you should have something like a 'budget' for your ship. I think we could make that work by having a seperate money attribute for this and making the shipyard look at that when commissioned. Each promotion money is added to that. Repairing might also be taken from that and you can put money in it yourself if you want or need to.
Then the shipyard should have navy ships only and get more aviable depending on your rank.
This should only be in the towns of the nation you are serving. If in another shipyard you have to pay for repair yourself, and they wont sell to you.

 

[Grey Roger]

Navy Playstyle
...
Disadvantages:
...
- You should at least sink X pirate ships per X months else you get demoted or fired

Bad idea. For one thing, you've already said that there won't be as many pirates. In fact, if you're doing your job really well then there wouldn't be any! Also, ships belonging to enemy nations ought to count - and again, if you're doing a good job then they're going to be rare, so you won't find them. You get demoted because you have done too well and swept the sea clear of His Majesty's enemies.

Merchant Playstyle
Advantages:
...
- Only pirates will be enemy with you
- Crew morale when hirering them will always be good

Pirates are not your only enemies. Merchants also need to fear warships belonging to enemy nations. Commerce raiding has been a valid war strategy for a very long time!

Why would crew morale always be good upon hiring for merchants and not for others?

Disadvantages:
- Hoisting a false flag will get you kicked out

Why? Hoisting a false flag to get past enemy ships is perfectly valid. I know for a fact that merchants did it during WW1 and WW2; they probably did it during the age of sail too.

As a merchant, you should not be allowed to attack anyone. You are, however, allowed to defend yourself. The only way to handle that in game is probably to penalise you for firing on anything which isn't hostile to you, but both pirates and enemy ships will be hostile at the start of the encounter.

Without a letter of marque, you should not be allowed to capture enemy ships. That's piracy. The whole reason for getting a letter of marque is to legally be able to take prizes - in reality, the East India Company got letters of marque for its ships for precisely that reason.

Privateer Playstyle

Advantages:
- You will get special weapons at promotion and maybe 1 special ship on a very high rank.
- You can sink ships from nations without theire relation getting worse cause you have the nation relation

Provided, that is, that you only have one letter of marque, and are therefore tied to your nation's relations, so enemy nations are already hostile. If that nation makes peace with yours then your relations become neutral. If you have multiple letters of marque then you're independent and that nation remains hostile to you.

...
- You wont have to pay mooring costs in the ports of nations you serve
- You can use the room in the tavern for free in the ports of nations you serve

I don't see why. You're not a commissioned officer so the Navy won't pick up your bills.
- You can use the diplomat for everyone (if you have more then one LoM).

Disadvantages:
- The gouvenor will require you to pay a sum of money each X months to keep the letter of marque

Why? Your initial sum is to prove your commitment. After that, what the governor gets is a share of your prize money. In reality, privateers (and commissioned officers) wouldn't sell prize ships themselves. The prize would be handed to an admiralty court for disposal, then the privateer (or naval officer) would get a share of the profit. In game, unless someone fancies writing a whole new set of code for the admiralty court, this is effectively handled by the fact that you don't get anything like full value for a ship when you sell it - the difference is what the governor takes as his share.

Pirate Playstyle

Advantages:
...
- You get a discount at buying gunpowder etc in the pirate store.

Disadvantages:
- Everyone is your enemy at the start
- Your crew will demand to sign articles very soon
- At the start selling at the pirate store wont give you much, but when your rank increases this will become better.

At the start, selling anything anywhere in any playstyle doesn't give you much because your Commerce skill is low and you don't have any of the Commerce perks. After you've done enough trading to raise your Commerce skill and gone up enough levels to raise your Commerce perks (or preferably hired a decent quartermaster so you can put your Ability points into other perks), this will become better. There's no need to penalise a fledgeling pirate even further. Or to exaggerate further the boost that he gets later in the game. And why would the pirate store give anyone a discount?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Hmmm.....as a commissioned officer I think you should have something like a 'budget' for your ship. I think we could make that work by having a seperate money attribute for this and making the shipyard look at that when commissioned. Each promotion money is added to that. Repairing might also be taken from that and you can put money in it yourself if you want or need to.
Then the shipyard should have navy ships only and get more aviable depending on your rank.
This should only be in the towns of the nation you are serving. If in another shipyard you have to pay for repair yourself, and they wont sell to you.

Sounds like you might be able to repurpose your personal wealth for that perhaps?

 

[Levis]

Bad idea. For one thing, you've already said that there won't be as many pirates. In fact, if you're doing your job really well then there wouldn't be any! Also, ships belonging to enemy nations ought to count - and again, if you're doing a good job then they're going to be rare, so you won't find them. You get demoted because you have done too well and swept the sea clear of His Majesty's enemies.

It gives you something to do and pirates will always pop up. Ofcourse enemy ships should also be added. We might be able to add some quests to the different playstyles, but having the navy officers at least have a counter of how many ships he sunk in a period would give him something to do by default and if you base the promotions on that. So say you need to sink/capture at least 3 ships in the next 3 months and you do that its fine, if you capture less you are demoted, and if you capture more then say 5 you are promoted. That wouldn't be hard to make and would ensure that players have something to do in the playstyle very easy.

Pirates are not your only enemies. Merchants also need to fear warships belonging to enemy nations. Commerce raiding has been a valid war strategy for a very long time!

True, so merchants shouldn't be a problem and all merchant ships should be neutral? how does that sound? Also attacking merchants from a enemy nation is penaltized cause they will show up as neutral for you.

Why would crew morale always be good upon hiring for merchants and not for others?

Cause they didnt wake up drunk on the deck of a ship finding themself in service of a pirate but they choose to do some actual fair work.

Why? Hoisting a false flag to get past enemy ships is perfectly valid. I know for a fact that merchants did it during WW1 and WW2; they probably did it during the age of sail too.

As a merchant, you should not be allowed to attack anyone. You are, however, allowed to defend yourself. The only way to handle that in game is probably to penalise you for firing on anything which isn't hostile to you, but both pirates and enemy ships will be hostile at the start of the encounter.

Without a letter of marque, you should not be allowed to capture enemy ships. That's piracy. The whole reason for getting a letter of marque is to legally be able to take prizes - in reality, the East India Company got letters of marque for its ships for precisely that reason.

okay so hoisting a false flag should be possible but not attacking other ship, I can find myself there altough it will be harder to make. We could add the option that if you are a high rank merchant you get a LoM maybe...

Provided, that is, that you only have one letter of marque, and are therefore tied to your nation's relations, so enemy nations are already hostile. If that nation makes peace with yours then your relations become neutral. If you have multiple letters of marque then you're independent and that nation remains hostile to you.

yes

I don't see why. You're not a commissioned officer so the Navy won't pick up your bills.

You want to have some sort of reward for playing as this type and I can see the gouvenor making an exception for you, or at least a discount cause you are known. The tavern I tought was just a nice little thing, mostly cause the tavernkeeper likes privateers cause the crew gets drunk there often.

Why? Your initial sum is to prove your commitment. After that, what the governor gets is a share of your prize money. In reality, privateers (and commissioned officers) wouldn't sell prize ships themselves. The prize would be handed to an admiralty court for disposal, then the privateer (or naval officer) would get a share of the profit. In game, unless someone fancies writing a whole new set of code for the admiralty court, this is effectively handled by the fact that you don't get anything like full value for a ship when you sell it - the difference is what the governor takes as his share.

Mostly this was intended as the gouvernor taking the price money, The shipyard always wants to take a percentage of the selling ship to. if you really want to do it here you can but then the shipyard should pay less for the ship.

At the start, selling anything anywhere in any playstyle doesn't give you much because your Commerce skill is low and you don't have any of the Commerce perks. After you've done enough trading to raise your Commerce skill and gone up enough levels to raise your Commerce perks (or preferably hired a decent quartermaster so you can put your Ability points into other perks), this will become better. There's no need to penalise a fledgeling pirate even further. Or to exaggerate further the boost that he gets later in the game. And why would the pirate store give anyone a discount?

The pirate store would give you a discount because you are one of the pirates and you maybe help them a bit too. Doesn't the pirate leader require you to do tasks for the pirates? Besides that they get to know you better. A shopkeeper will never give you the best prices instantly, the commerce skills etc are so you get better at haggling, but I think this would add something too cause it would make you feel more at home at the pirates and there is an advantage of going to a pirate port.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

It gives you something to do and pirates will always pop up. Ofcourse enemy ships should also be added. We might be able to add some quests to the different playstyles, but having the navy officers at least have a counter of how many ships he sunk in a period would give him something to do by default and if you base the promotions on that. So say you need to sink/capture at least 3 ships in the next 3 months and you do that its fine, if you capture less you are demoted, and if you capture more then say 5 you are promoted. That wouldn't be hard to make and would ensure that players have something to do in the playstyle very easy.

To prevent this from being too annoying, perhaps demotion should not be an option just yet? We can always add that later if gameplay requires it for some reason.

Doesn't the pirate leader require you to do tasks for the pirates?

Not at the moment.

 

[Levis]

To prevent this from being too annoying, perhaps demotion should not be an option just yet? We can always add that later if gameplay requires it for some reason.

Maybe not instantly but say for example after 3 times in a row ...

 

[Andouce]

Here is a thought. In terms of your own "personal nation". How could you make it that if your characters chosen nation, as a commissioned officer class, was your personal one, that your boarder model changed to the soldier version.

So basically instead of sailors you have as a merchant or so you could have personal soldier models such as "Soldier_Per" - "Soldier_Per6" including the Officer model so it is set up like the normal nations boarder models are if you are under their flag and have a rank.

Cheers and just a thought :S

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Certainly not impossible. Although I have no clue how you can be in the service of yourself.