Included in Build Distinguish between different playstyles

[Levis]

So whats wrong with more files? most will just be copies of each other but I think it makes it way easier to look at stuff then to look trough 1 big function.

I propose we store all different playtype ranks also instead of only the nation, and let the game decide which playtype you are atm and pick the appropriate rank

 

[Levis]

It's possible yes. I think you should have the possebility to start and stop with a certain playstyle also.
If you are deemed a pirate there must be a way to redeem yourself also.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

So whats wrong with more files? most will just be copies of each other but I think it makes it way easier to look at stuff then to look trough 1 big function.

Nothing. It actually makes more sense, because one single file will probably get cluttered real soon.
Also allows different people to work on different files without WinMerging being required.

I propose we store all different playtype ranks also instead of only the nation, and let the game decide which playtype you are atm and pick the appropriate rank

Indeed that would allow more flexibility in use too.

I wonder if it could be set up in such a way that promotion-based missions could be pre-programmed as well.
Just to "shake things up" from the "going about your business in free play" thing.

This would probably be another large project though. Perhaps we should first have the required locations and characters in place.
Otherwise you add a lot of code that we cannot use at the moment.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Definitely. Well, there ARE the "I crave forgiveness" lines at the governors.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

@andyandy: When you get the chance, please provide more information on how and when you noticed this.
At the moment there is very little we can do because we don't know how to even replicate this....

 

[Grey Roger]

So any other player type attacking non-hostile ships?
I suppose any such action should technically turn you pirate.

That's exactly what it would do. If you're not a commissioned officer attacking the enemies of your nation or a privateer attacking the enemies of whoever sold you a letter of marque, and you're not defending yourself against someone who attacked you first, then you are a pirate. (The distinction between privateer and pirate is a little vague, the nation you're attacking may regard you as a pirate, while the less scrupulous privateer will just regard a letter of marque as a way to commit piracy while keeping at least one nation friendly.)

There should perhaps also be the possibility of not following any play style at all.
For example if you just follow a storyline or make your money through treasure quests or something.
We can consider that some sort of "freebooter adventurer" type thing.

That's what I've always liked about PoTC (and a few other games, starting with the old space trading/combat game "Elite"). You aren't constrained, you can do what you like but there may be consequences to face.

So there are two things to consider here:
1. When should the pirates accept you as one of them?
and
2. What advantages should there be to playing as a proper enemy to all nations? And how would this remain interesting?
In fact, how would you even survive at all without being able to make use of the resources that large towns provide?

1: Any time. If you have any letters of marque, you lose them. If you subsequently crave forgiveness from a governor and then buy a letter of marque, you lose your standing among pirates. (Possibly log that fact, then the pirates will never accept you again because you've betrayed them once already. Or you have to pay lots of money to crave forgiveness from them, re-join and lose your letter(s) of marque again.) Fame should not be a condition, you're joining in the hope of becoming famous!
2: Target rich environment. Anything you meet on the high seas that isn't wearing a black flag is a target. Beyond that, it's an alternative way of playing instead of serving your choice of nation(s) as a privateer, smuggling or honest trading.

It may be possible to crave forgiveness from a governor and not buy a letter of marque, so you retain your standing with pirates but refrain from attacking ships belonging to that nation, then at least there are some ports where you can trade. Alternatively, you can sail into port under a false flag and, provided you're not recognised, trade with the store and shipyard. This will become harder as you become more famous, of course...

"Brave Black Flag" starts you off as a pirate but not actively hostile to anyone except Britain. Perhaps that's the way to go - when you first join the pirates, you're asked who is after you, then that nation alone becomes hostile. Either you're seeking refuge from that nation or you're seeking revenge against that nation - as it's free play, you can make up your own background. Provided you don't then attack everything in sight, you can remain neutral to one or more nations so you can still use their facilities. (When I played "Brave Black Flag", I victimised Britain, Portugal and Holland, but left France and Spain alone. So provided I wasn't stupid enough to enter port under the pirate flag, I could still use French and Spanish stores and shipyards.) Otherwise the facilities of Nevis pirate settlement, Turks Island and possibly Tortuga are at your disposal.
In the final analysis, the problem of how to survive when all nations are against you isn't for the programmers to solve. It's for the player to solve. That's the challenge of being a pirate.

 

[andyandy]

in short, what happened is that I got LoM and first promotion with land grant from France in the Assasin's universe. Then i got mission to sink/capture French ships from the plot. Then when i did, France became hostile to me, but my land didn't decrease.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

At the moment you are only truly harshly penalized if you fire on a ship that is friendly to you at sea , eg. showing green (or gray) on the minimap.
If you surprise a ship by hoisting a hostile flag in sight of them, they also do not apreciate it and you may be marked attacked for being a traitor when you are in a port of their nation.

But if you hoist a hostile flag out of sight of anyone, then your nation relations will not massively change.
So even if you have an English LoM and both England and France are friendly to each other and to yourself, you can still hoist a pirate flag and attack French ships without much of a penalty.
I agree that does not make sense and we should definitely do something to change that.


As for joining the pirates, I also agree that fame should not be a requirement. Would make much more sense for this to be easy.
I also like your idea of it only being easy the FIRST time and not after you "betray" them.

That being said, if only one nation turns hostile when you join the pirates, that seems not enough of a price to pay for being a pirate.
Isn't the point of being a pirate that you turn your back on ALL nations? If you thereafter want to crave forgiveness, that is up to the player.
But it'll cost you a substantial amount of money to do so.

In the final analysis, the problem of how to survive when all nations are against you isn't for the programmers to solve. It's for the player to solve. That's the challenge of being a pirate.

True. We just need to think about it so that all reasonable tools to survive are at least open to the player.

That's what I've always liked about PoTC (and a few other games, starting with the old space trading/combat game "Elite"). You aren't constrained, you can do what you like but there may be consequences to face.

Absolutely agreed! That's definitely one thing I VERY much want to achieve in the game. It sort-of happens already, but needs to be better.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Ah, it was the storyline that turned you hostile, was it? That does actually explain it since those story events are written comparitively simply.
It was never written with the idea that you might have been serving France prior to that point.

Not sure how much we should do on this.
It is quite impossible to consider all variables to ensure that the game world and the storyline make sense regardless of variable player actions.

 

[andyandy]

not sure if it's the story line makes France hostile to me or just the attacking of french ships making the relations low enough to break allegiance. but if the latter is the case, then the land should be confiscated no?

 

[andyandy]

btw, what's the use of personal wealth? is there some settlement upgrade or something that i cannot use crew money on?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

not sure if it's the story line makes France hostile to me or just the attacking of french ships making the relations low enough to break allegiance. but if the latter is the case, then the land should be confiscated no?

If it is indeed your actions to do it, then you should lose your land.
If you have a savegame prior to turning hostile to France and let us know what you did when you turned hostile, we would have something to test with.

btw, what's the use of personal wealth? is there some settlement upgrade or something that i cannot use crew money on?

It is mainly a way to keep score. More wealth = more fame.
See the Documentation\Tutorials & History.pdf file for details. It is explained somewhere in the Build 11 ReadMe section.

 

[Grey Roger]

At the moment you are only truly harshly penalized if you fire on a ship that is friendly to you at sea , eg. showing green (or gray) on the minimap.
If you surprise a ship by hoisting a hostile flag in sight of them, they also do not apreciate it and you may be marked attacked for being a traitor when you are in a port of their nation.

But if you hoist a hostile flag out of sight of anyone, then your nation relations will not massively change.
So even if you have an English LoM and both England and France are friendly to each other and to yourself, you can still hoist a pirate flag and attack French ships without much of a penalty.
I agree that does not make sense and we should definitely do something to change that.

Can you make it so that if you attack a ship belonging to a nation, that nation takes note of it and so do its allies? Therefore, if you have an English letter of marque, England and France are allies, and you attack a French ship, you lose the letter of marque just as if you'd attacked an English ship. I've an idea that something like this happens if you don't have a letter of marque. In one game playing "Tales of a Sea Hawk", Spain became hostile to me and I'm pretty sure I didn't attack anything Spanish. But Spain was allied to France and I certainly attacked French ships. This is why I normally get a letter of marque from Spain early on. Then they don't become hostile, which means I can sail into San Juan freely. This is very useful at that point in the story where, having been washed overboard and ended up on Bonaire, I acquire a pirate pinnace and make my way to San Juan. You have to dock, not sneak in the back door, because on the dock is where you meet your crew and trigger the next event in the story. Of course, this is going to be a problem if a letter of marque no longer protects you from the wrath of a nation allied to one you attacked. That dock scene is something to keep in mind when considering any change to how your relations with nations behave...

As for joining the pirates, I also agree that fame should not be a requirement. Would make much more sense for this to be easy.
I also like your idea of it only being easy the FIRST time and not after you "betray" them.

For good measure, governors could do the same. If you've taken a letter of marque from England, then given it up, the next one should either be impossible ("You turned your back on us once, why should we trust you again?") or cost a lot more ("Since you've proven unreliable in the past, we're going to need more of a financial guarantee of your loyalty").

That being said, if only one nation turns hostile when you join the pirates, that seems not enough of a price to pay for being a pirate.
Isn't the point of being a pirate that you turn your back on ALL nations? If you thereafter want to crave forgiveness, that is up to the player.

I'd say your choice of enemies should be up to the player. "Brave Black Flag" already gives you the option of playing a pirate with only one enemy, you just don't have a choice of which nation will be your enemy. Think of it as another optional choice of difficulty level, perhaps. More enemies means more potential targets and fewer places where you can trade. (Though if you are "Hero", they'll trade with you anyway after you've sneaked in through the back door.)

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Your first point sounds a bit odd to me. Though I'm not familiar enough with the nation relation coding to say for sure what happens.
As far as I always understood it, nations should not turns hostile to you without you giving them a proper reason.

At the moment, there is already the distinction between "leave good" and "leave bad" for governor services.
If you leave good, then you can rejoin the service later on and carry on where you left off.
But if you leave bad, they don't appreciate it, your relations plummet and if you get a LoM again, you'd have to start from scratch.

The hero pirate, eh? Only in films and games!
As I figure it, the choice of enemies IS up to the player even if all nations DO turn hostile upon joining the pirates.
Except that you manually have to crave for forgiveness and pay a price for it. Sort-of makes sense, doesn't it?
If you ARE a known pirate, why would any nations still trust you. Unless you specifically gave them a reason.

I don't see Brave Black Flag starting you as a "proper" pirate, since you did not choose to join the brotherhood.

 

[KillPhil]

What I also miss about playing a pirate in the game: One tip says that if you plunder enough ships etc. punitive squadrons will show up and chasing you.. but something like this doesnt exist.. but would be a good idea if you are a famous pirate and then have to face a lot of bounty hunters who are after your head ^^

 

[Pieter Boelen]

There IS code related to "punitive squadrons". Was there already in the original game. I think they're supposed to be called when you don't pay off a loan.
I also think that has never worked. They're supposed to go chase you on the worldmap.

 

[Grey Roger]

If it is indeed your actions to do it, then you should lose your land.
If you have a savegame prior to turning hostile to France and let us know what you did when you turned hostile, we would have something to test with.

It's sort of a mixture of storyline and your actions. It's not like "Tales of a Sea Hawk" in which England turns against you as a direct result of the plot. In "Assassin", you are required to do jobs for the admiral in Antigua so that in due time he'll hire you to escort a ship to Isla Mona. The first job he gives you is to sink a French ship. The second job he gives you is to accompany a colonisation attempt on Cozumel, where you find the French have got there first and you have to fight a French warship on the way out. So the plot does not actively turn France against you but it requires you to do things which will turn France against you.

Later on you're required to capture a French war galleon, La Couronne. The suggestion is that you let the French fleet fight the British fleet for a while, then you hoist a British flag and move in to capture the hopefully now weakened galleon. Except that, as a result of the previous actions, France probably doesn't like you very much, so La Couronne and its escorts are probably hostile. And if you approached under a Spanish flag, the British fleet is hostile too... In any case, if France wasn't actively hostile before, it probably will be after you've taken their best ship off them!

 

[KillPhil]

Never saw those - nor in the vanilla game and nor in NH..^^ But if there is already code, why don't use it for the purpose it is intended? If you are getting out of control as a pirate, nations surely would want to see you dead^^

 

[Levis]

Theres a system for the promotional based quest already sort of. Remember the work I did on the dialog system? You can have multiple dialog files for 1 person. You can have dialog files for the specific missions and assign them to the giver of the missions once a rank is reached.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

If regular gameplay turns France hostile, you should lose your land really. The code is already there.
So we'd need a test case to check.