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Solved Realism with Health, Potions, Stamina, etc.

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NathanKell

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Realism regarding potions, health, etc.

In terms of taking away potions, Alan's showing the way with leeches and various things; let's make injury something _important_, not just "let me chug a potion or wait for my health to regen."
For actual _healing_, you'd need rest, and/or to see a doctor. CCC's house residents are pointing the way here.

Heck, we could use that bar for _stamina_ rather than health, and track health differently. That would make the regeneration part make sense.
You could then handle stunning as having 0HP and being hit by anything, or having 0HP for more than, oh, 10 seconds.
In fact, poison would be an excellent way to show a wound's affect on stamina.

And we could change the enemy AI so that, if they're honorable, they wait for you to wake up before attacking. Same with disarming, trigger a dialog with you if they're honorable to give you back your sword.

Now, we'd probably need to make some pretty major concessions to playability even so (considering the horrible `survival-from`-injury rates...), but it'd be a step.

And, if we swing it right, be even _more_ fun (a man can dream <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheeky" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" /> ).
 
<!--`QuoteBegin-NathanKell`+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NathanKell)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And, if we swing it right, be even _more_ fun (a man can dream  :cheeky ).[/quote] <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_eek.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":shock:" border="0" alt="icon_eek.gif" /> Oh Nurse! Nurse!!! This man needs some HELP!!! <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="xD:" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" />

I like it... This is getting more interesting by the minute... <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/onya.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":onya" border="0" alt="onya.gif" />
 
In general - and abstract - the idea is great, but consider what it does to the gameplay. For my part, I "die" more often than I would like, because in melees blocking gets pierced a hell lot too often and with the enemies having the best swords, I´m dead with two to three strokes. And that´s even if I do try to use portions. Maybe the damage statistics of the swords got a *bit* high...
 
Hm.. sounds great!
But have you abitily to freeze main hero to use sword and set block??

We can make it to NPC - freeze use attack mode but it is not simple too
 
And so could a low stamina affect your ability to fight?

This reminds me of classic `turn-based`-fighting RPGs, and I had this thought the other day before seeing this thread actually: More enemies could be given poisonous or `knock-out` weapons, and you'd have to use a healing or reviving potion before you could fight. Have to keep them stocked in your officers' inventory too.

(Not doable here I'm sure, but I'm also reminded of a couple of my favourite games, Silent Hill and Metal Gear Solid, where your health/stamina can be affected in really unique ways... if you run a lot in the former, you bend over and start panting really loud. Didn't really affect gameplay but it was an interesting detail; In the latter, you can get a pack of ciagarettes and it's useful to smoke sometimes, like to reveal laser tripwires [nothing we need to worry about here, right?], but it gradually eats away at your health.)
 
Nice coincidence, just yesterday I pondered if something like stamina could and should be implemented.
I would like it very much if you had to rest sometimes, AND find a safe place for rest, or reliable friends for healing and safety. Would enhance the feeling of really living in the gameworld.
On the other hand there is always the danger that such a feature becomes a dragging nuisance. And as Grimm said, it needs to be balanced with the fighting system.

As with all your excellent recent proposals it comes down to the question what type of game one wants: a quick and easy reckless actiongame, or a simulation of a hard 17th century life, requiring thoughtful planning of your deeds. I'd say I tend to the latter.
Of course it would be best if both styles were tweakable...
 
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course it would be best if both styles were tweakable...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually that would be the solution to another thing you mentioned before: sooner or later we'll have so many buildsettings that users need a manual just to adjust the build. If it were possible to group some of the settings into "styles", the player need only decide if he/she wants to play "realistic", "simulator", "hard", "fun", "cheat", etc. Of course some of these distinctions are alread in the difficulty level.
 
From the posts, sounds like I'm by far not the only one pondering this... <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/happy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="^_^" border="0" alt="happy.gif" />

Grimm. You make a good point. So how about this? One can only be _hit_ when one's stamina is below some amount--we consider blocking to be blocking with your _sword_; if you fail to block, then you still dodge the blow somehow, but at the cost of stamina.

Also that way swordfights would be more `swashbuckler-movie`-ish, i.e. much thrusting, blocking, and dodging when not blocked, but only one or two real hits. As it is now, it's a slugging match with swords.
Even so there should still be a few "wounded" states between healthy and death, not `insta-death`.

{We can thus make pierce simply how agile the sword is and thus how much energy must be expended to block or dodge it.}
---
ALexusB: I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you saying, how to _prevent_ the player or an NPC attacking or blocking, or how to freeze the PC/NPC in the middle of an attack/block?
If the former, record the NPC's old group, task, etc., and give them the stunned task/group/etc that CCC added, and do the same for the PC (make actor temporarily, give stun task, etc). If the latter, then I guess a constant loop of PlayAnimation().
---
Alan:
1. Hmm. That's a good idea, though probably warrants a toggle.
2. Hmm, yes. Smelling salts!
3. Well, we can play heavy breathing sounds...and maybe have taking a drink of water help?
---
(second half in a sec)
 
CCC: Yes, fun is in the eye of the `be-player`, to mutate a phrase.
I tend the same way (as evinced by these posts... <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheeky" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" /> ) but sometimes I feel The Need, The Need For Swashbuckling.

I think you and Inez are quite right about, with increasing defines, the need for settings schemes. Is it possible to write something that parses the BS.h file and makes a box for each setting, takes the comment after it as the description, and allows saving and recalling schemes?

Also have it, if we flag them somehow, sort them by how `end-user`-tweakable they are? I.e. the internals of town dynamics calcs* or Coast Raider or VC are _all_ in BS.h but they're not as relevant as the player's name or whether certain mods are active or not.

(But this should probably be split to a Settings Util thread)
 
<!--`QuoteBegin-Inez` Dias+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Inez Dias)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If it were possible to group some of the settings into "styles", the player need only decide if he/she wants to play "realistic", "simulator", "hard", "fun", "cheat",  etc.[/quote]Inez, I love this idea, to have separate styles of play - it's a much more refined way of looking at the difficulty levels than simply upping your enemy's HP against your own... There could be many nuances of the game, custom as well as settings that are already defined but put into a easily selected category. It could be handled by making a good BuildSettings.h that has things switchable so you could customize your own settings - but also alternative BS.h files that can be selected instead of editing on your own. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/onya.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":onya" border="0" alt="onya.gif" /> I like it! This could be the answer to what to do for people who don't want to have such realism and just want to sail around blasting things out of the water... <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/par-ty.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheers" border="0" alt="par-ty.gif" />

HOWEVER as Nathan suggests, there are some days when you want realism, and other days when you're just READY to blast everything out of the water...
 
<!--`QuoteBegin-NathanKell`+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NathanKell)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From the posts, sounds like I'm by far not the only one pondering this... <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/happy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="^_^" border="0" alt="happy.gif" />

Grimm. You make a good point. So how about this? One can only be _hit_ when one's stamina is below some amount--we consider blocking to be blocking with your _sword_; if you fail to block, then you still dodge the blow somehow, but at the cost of stamina.

Also that way swordfights would be more `swashbuckler-movie`-ish, i.e. much thrusting, blocking, and dodging when not blocked, but only one or two real hits. As it is now, it's a slugging match with swords.
Even so there should still be a few "wounded" states between healthy and death, not `insta-death`.

{We can thus make pierce simply how agile the sword is and thus how much energy must be expended to block or dodge it.}
[/quote]

That´s a great idea, provided it´s doable. And I agree with you, the swordfight IS sluggish the way it is.
 
I'm wondering now about running speeds... could those be tweaked just a little, so if your stamina is high you can run faster than if your stamina is low? Where this would come into play, I picture, is sometimes I try and run after some guy to stab him*, but if he has a head start I will simply never catch up, so I hafta try and shoot, but if anyone's in the way they usually end up shot instead and that's always bad news for me. (Can't you cancel a shot if some blamed fool gets in your way?)
There are also times you need to run away yourself.

(* my new favourite "cheat:" that guy whatshisname in the Albion troop sloop has like a million dollars in his purse, seriously. So now instead of escorting his little blue boat, I get to Greenford port and kill his ass, and I'm that much richer. Funny thing is not only does nobody at the port care, but my quest book has the same entry I get if I let his ship get sunk - nothing at all about me being the one who smoked him.)
 
I don't see a way to parametrically alter movement speeds* (well, I haven't looked _too_ hard, but nothing's popping up), but what we can do is simply disable run (i.e. set both run and walk mode to walk animation).

*Short of running a constant postevent() loop that teleports a character back a unit every second, of course, but I _really_ wouldn't want to do that.

{ Alleluja! Doing this research solved one of Pieter's questions. }
 
RE: fatigue and rest: residents should offer you rest and healing only after you have won their friendship (e.g. by performing some task for them). The feeling of having individual characters which could be your friend would IMHO add a lot to immersion. So far PotC characters IMHO lack individuality (especially MY generated NPCs <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" /> Once we have a fatigue/rest feature I can rewrite the residents accordingly )

Finding a place for rest should require some effort or cost. (the 5 G for a tavernroom are rather pointless) Camping in the jungle should be possible(for the distant future I plan lenghty jungle expeditions), but only with some camping equipment(see inventory thread), and with the danger of being woken up by a bunch of monkeys or indians( for that at least I can contribute the code while for all my other grand suggestions I have to rely on Nathan's ability to work wonders <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" /> )

RE potions and fighting: I think that Grimm is right that you can't survive many fights without potions. Especially in drawn out boardings and my upcoming fort raids you will often be in a situation where you are stuck with few HP in the middle of several fights, and what shall you do then without some possibility to replenish your HP? Would just be hopeless and frustrating.
What one could do is replace the fantasy potions with "bandages and tourniquets" (or leeches <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" /> ) Would it be possible and a good idea to punish the use of a bandage with a temporary reduction of your fighting skill?
 
Inez, yes, grouping tweaks is a good idea, or even a necessity. A quick proposal for categories:

-General/Swashbuckling: the basic things, name, starting stats etc. AND (a few!) new settings where you can tweak if you want ALL the stuff in the following groups to be active or not. So if you are in swashbuckling mood today you could switch all the "complications" off with a few strokes.

-Classic RPG style: the upcoming limitations on item use and transport, health, recreation, fighting etc.

-"realistic" Logistics & Gameworld: stats for loadingtime of goods, repairtime, everything connected with townsize and pricecalculation etc., nationrelation and political events, Captain's Challenge

-Thievery and Sneaking: my Vice City stuff, boobytraps, pickpocketing etc. And the upcoming Sneak mod stuff.


At least for my mods I can easily add "category tweaks": wherever I checked for a tweak ( if(PICKCHANCE<rand(20) ) I can just check for the Categorytweak as well: if(PICKCHANCE<rand(20) && THIEVERY=1 )

Unless someone can include this into the ingame interface...
 
Rereading this I think that we could claim with some justification that the Build offers three games in one free package <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />
 
Not to mention the sheer lunacy and delight of the comic relief! <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="icon_wink.gif" /> <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="xD:" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" />
 
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->running speeds<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See animation thread
 
How about having the "wounded" player and sailors repair health only by visiting the ship (ship's doctor or surgeon) or a similar establishment in a colony? Is there a way to slow down the rate of regaining health on the red indicator bar?
As a matter of fact, how about adding a "medicine chest" to part of the ship's required items (like "wheat" and "rum")- I think someone mentioned earlier about adding water. The "wheat" should at least be changed to "provisions" since such items usually consisted of salt pork, salt beef, biscuit, oatmeal, cheese, and butter (1707 Royal Navy ration)... not counting what was stolen or liberated.
I can locate references to actual costs of period goods and foods, if we really wanna be hardcore...

Yours, &c.

Mike

Pirates of Massacre Island

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/flpyrate/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/flpyrate/index.html</a>
 
CCC: And we'd best track that and record it into the loc's vag remember thingie. You can probably change NPC.quest.meeting into a scale, where < 0 is they hate you and >1 is increasing like?

Actually, better to add an attribute to all location fantoms ch.islocfantom = true, and then under that a list of the attributes to save?
So that way we can save multiple attributes.

Speaking of locfantoms, perhaps we should do them by _town_, so that rather than three sets of people in each town (normal citizens, random vagabonds/bandits, and semirandom house residents) we have one semirandom group done as locfantoms (that changes over time like houseresidents), but as locfantoms on the _town_ table, who would show up in either their house or any communal place in town (streets, store, mansion, etc.).
That would also free up character slots for other use.

Also, looking through LAi_Characters.c, I find the interesting reference to Fanatics. By this it seems Akella simply meant churchgoers. The intersting thing here is it means they originally intended characters to be in multiple locations (well, not at once; but to be in certain communal places at certain times).
The weird thing is that the functions and the data do not match; search for "church" in IslaMuelle, Conc., or FdF's characters init, and you'll see a number of characters have ch.church and ch.church.loc attributes (and ch.back and *.loc attributes which point back to where they start), but that's different from the functions (which look for ch.location.church = church ID, and *.group, *.locator, *.stime, and *.etime). In fact, if characters _had_ those attributes, they would be loaded to the church by LAi_login!

But I ramble.

CCC, it is the ideas that are wonderful, the coding merely to execute them. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />
(Regardless it's my pleasure. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> )

Regarding potions and fighting, my thought is that the player would only be (seriously) wounded if he/she _lost_ the fight; flesh wounds (or dodges to avoid wounds) would simply deplenish stamina. But for a `semi-serious` wound (a serious one meaning it's time for the Angel of the Tavern to spirit you away...), bandages are a great idea. In fact we could just rename the antidote bandages, and call poisoning "bleeding to death."

But regarding wounds, I recall reading some treatise on them and swordfighting, namely that people not just stayed alive for a time after even a mortal wound, but _stayed fighting_ with said mortal wound, dying hours later.

{There is of course the question whether the definition of mortal wound these days, with modern medicine, is different; but still and all one didn't just simply keel over after one thrust, however fatal*.}
*Not, say, chop to the neck or thrust to the eye, I mean the traditional "thru da heart!"
---
Regarding grouping.
I would make a distinction between schemes and categories. The latter is simply a grouping of #defines, the former is a list of #define <i>and what they are_set to_.</i>. So actually BS.h currently does have more or less categories (though they could well be tightened; I'm more than a little to blame for settings bloat... <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheeky" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />).
It'd really be best to do this with a program that can flip between multiple defaults for each setting (and do so en masse) rather than trying to add yet more #defines.

MadMike: good point in re: goods, and in re doctors!
And re: "if we really wanna be hardcore"
As CCC mentioned, there are those of us... <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dev.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":d:" border="0" alt="dev.gif" />
 
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