Build 14 Beta 1

[Pieter Boelen]

That's why I think we should limit the decreased XP on sailing to Auto Skill System off; then things stay the same as they were in Beta 1 for Auto Skill System on.

 

[Black Bart]

BB, we know that. you just keep confusing wether we mean skill xp or leveling xp. pieter was referring to skill xp.

Ah......ok you are right when i see 'XP' being talked about i assume it is the 'normal' type of XP, the stuff you get from killing things, opening locks, sailing updates on the quarter hour etc. All my XP tweaks(a bit of which is now in the game) only relates to that kind of XP, the levelling XP. Thanks for clearing that up to me Morgan - i was getting a bit confused over which type was being used.

Having said that Pieter, using any of my XP tweaks will have no effect on the rpg skills xp system, sailing or otherwise, so i'm wondering why you need to alter that or make it seperate at all? This might be just extra work that is not really needed or is there an issue with the XP leveling(as opposed to rpg skills xp) tweaks in general you are finding?

For sure rpg skill xp gain for use in the rpg leveling system are all up the creek i would suggest, and need some attention. I'm currently running these values, from MAXIMUS_functions.c, around line 315 onwards:

//-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
// Adjust the skill gained by character level, skill level and uneven gain in skills
//-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

// Experience in each skill is worth more at low skill levels
skillExp = skillExp * (11 - sti(_refCharacter.skill.(expName)));	// this produces 10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1

// Adjust for uneven gain in skills
int expMult = 1;
if (_exp < 1000)
{
switch (expName)
{
//		case "Leadership":	expMult =  3; break;	// LDH 30Apr09//BB adjustments for 'rpg' skill increases - aim to make skill increases a bit quicker - Aug 2011
case "Fencing":		expMult =  1; break;    //BB was 3
case "Sailing":		expMult =  1; break;	// included for completeness//BB was 1
case "Accuracy":	expMult =  1; break;	// included for completeness//BB was 1
case "Cannons":		expMult =  1; break;	// included for completeness//BB was 1
case "Repair":
expMult = 30;							// repair is a lot of small skill gains, minimum of 20 sent by repair functions//BB was 50
if (sti(_refCharacter.rank) < 3)		// keeps player from getting repair skill 5 or 6 in the tutorial - 25Feb09
{
expMult = 20;
}
break;
case "Defence":		expMult =  1; break;//BB was 6
case "Sneak":		expMult =  1; break;//BB was 3
}
}
// Things we don't handle in the exp<1000 test above
if (expName == "Leadership") expMult = 1;	// LDH moved outside of test - 30Apr09//BB was 3
if (expName == "Grappling")  expMult = 1;	// grappling is always high experience but doesn't happen often. - 30Apr09//BB was 4
if (expName == "Commerce") skillExp /= 2;	// commerce is usually high, we're cutting it in half here so above test is wrong for this//BB was 2

skillExp *= expMult;

// Level the skill gains across ranks. Experience is worth more at lower rank.
// limit to 2 * experience - 01May09
skillExp = makeint(makefloat(skillExp) * retMin(2.0, 4.0 / stf(_refCharacter.rank)) + 0.5);	// 2.0, 2.0, 1.3, 1.0, 0.75, 0.67 etc

// If you think skills are gained too slow or too fast, here's where to tweak the overall rate.
// Higher number gives faster gain for all skills.
float SkillTweak = 1.0;  //BB was 1.0
skillExp = makeint(makefloat(skillExp) * SkillTweak);

int curSkill = sti(_refCharacter.Experience.(expName));
if (_exp < 500)
curSkill += skillExp;
else
curSkill += makeint(skillExp / 2.0);	// LDH this is from the old code and I'm not sure why it's used - 03Apr09

The aim here was to see how much quicker(i assume they should be!) skills will increase in the rpg system if i set most of the values to 1 where they had been higher previously(2-6 etc). I'm not sure how much difference it has made so far to be honest! But then is reducing these values the way to make those skills rise more quickly? Like i say i'm not a code guy so understanding exactly what the code here is meant to do is not 100% clear for me :mm

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Higher numbers there make the skills increase quicker.

 

[Black Bart]

@ Pieter, ah....ok. I was thinking that with Melee being a very commonly used skill(so one of the easier to increase) and having the '3' default setting, higher might have meant slower to progress. I'll need to re-adjust my stats in the code there

Now one other thing in terms of the rpg skills system, does that section of code always handle things or is it just for the starting/lower levels maybe? I ask due to the line:

// Adjust for uneven gain in skills
int expMult = 1;
if (_exp < 1000)
{

--------------------

Anyway now on with more feedback on those latest changes to the patch 7 wip 2 file:

Using that last Beta Patch 7 wip 2, RPG progression system ON, difficulty level = Adventurer.

I've taken a sceenshot to show an example of 'insta-death' combat with some stats i put together after a bunch of re-loading and trying different ways to win the fight:

Bad Guy 1 and Bad Guy 2 are the real killers, and even though their levels are the same or higher than mine and my Officers, they are not exactly kitted out with 'awesome' weapons(no pistols for example and very low end swords). Still either one of those guys, even after taken a gunshot, will kill me or any one of my officers in 1 or 2 strikes(even if you block). I reloaded this fight about 15 times and in the end the trick was to move around the other side of the 'Bad Guy' group and take out Bad Guy 3 first followed by 4, then with numerous shots on the 'deadly' Bad Guys 1+2 i just scraped a victory. Still it really felt like a one off victory - i died easily all the other attempts.

So the 'insta-death' scenario isn't down to meeting very high level guys, it must be something else(thinking in particular about Bad Guy 1 with his crappy yataghan able to kill in a single strike!). In a way it would be great if i could find out what the 'Bad Guys' skills(melee) and perks are in this fight as i'm sure the answer has to be in there somewhere.

Having said that, as you can see i'm a reasonable starting level with decent weapons for the game start and this has been the only 'impossible' combat i have had so far. So it isn't quite as noticeable now as it was in my first few games using that latest patch with the combat calculation changes. It might be fine to have this level of difficulty 'randomly' in the game, as combat in general IS a bit on the easy side. On the other hand depending on when you encounter this type of scenario(maybe at a key plot battle?) it might just frustrate the player. I'm in two minds on that currently, as overall this game has only had that one 'insta-death' combat out of about the 20 odd combats those chars had been involved in so far.

Anyway that's the latest on my update on playtesting those new LAI_Fightparams.c changes and i'll post more as i find them.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

If you are at level 3 and have only met one instadeath fight, then that sounds pretty good to me. It used to be every fight up to level 20 or so.

 

[Black Bart]

Yes for sure, but that also raises a further concern. This is using the untweaked last patch with the changes to LAI_Fightparams.c, so nothing has been changed in that code(like the value 0.7 to 0.6 for proffesional fencer etc). And like you, when i first played that patch i was finding i was dying all the time, in pretty much any encounter. That was the pattern for about 3 or 4 new restarts. Now in this game it is as reported and i've only had this one encounter now, and it was a fight i could have walked away from if i wasn't testing it to destruction.

But i'm still concerned that whatever change has been introduced here, IF you get 'unlucky' then it can be effectively 'game over', just from a change in the calculations of the code. So i'm finding it hard to see the advantage of having the change, especaily if you get really unlucky and get 'insta-death' enemy at a key plot point(where you have to kill person x to carry on the game etc).

My gameplay feeling is it might be better to keep the code as it was in the previous patches for LAI_Fightparams.c, i'll need more testing to be 100% sure, but that seems to be the route my game testing is taking me sadly, i don't see the advantage in the gameplay with this code currently(which i'm sorry about Baste!)

A lvl 3 guy with just a yataghan was nearly able to wipe out my whole team(he would normaly kill 2 of us by himself if engaging in combat from the position shown in the screen shot). That is just not 'right' and with the previous LAI_Fightparams.c file did not happen. More testing ahead

 

[morgan terror]

i'd imagine that the thugs in santos' house with the mercenary pistols could be a bit of a problem. one could kill you by using half his shots, and there's 3 or 4 of those guys.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

The basic idea was to make combat harder later on, wasn't it? That instadeath thing is a bad side effect. Also, the bad guys seem to level up too fast. As I continue leveling up they seem to have flattened out. That means I'm downgrading my weapons to keep things interesting.

Do you remember when I needed a magical sword to stay alive? Now I'm using a Venetian cutlass and doing just fine.

A Yataghan does a lot of damage as I recall. No defense tho.

It seems to me that quest characters that you have to fight aren't that tough. I have only played the Assassin once, but Santos's gang went down pretty easy. But that was on the old settings.

 

[Baste]

These are some interesting results. Thanks for testing.

I tried your settings, Adventurer difficulty, being at level 3, and so on, but I didn't think it was so hard.

However, I found an error I missed earlier, and it might have been causing the problem.

Use my changes, including the Professional Fencer damage decrease set to "0.7", and find the line that reads "damage = damage*0.3;" and add "critical = critical*0.3;" under it so it looks like this:

// Baste - critical hit calculation changed -->
float critical = 0.0;
if(IsCharacterPerkOn(attack, "SwordplayProfessional"))
{
if(rand(100) <= 25)
{
critical = damage*2.0;
}
}else{
if(IsCharacterPerkOn(attack, "CriticalHit"))
{
if(rand(100) <= 10)
{
critical = damage*2.0;
}
}
}else{
if(rand(100) <= 5)
{
critical = damage*2.0;
}
}
if(isBlocked)
{
damage = damage*0.3;
critical = critical*0.3;
}

The error was that if you blocked and your enemy pierced your block and scored a critical hit the critical hit would deal full damage even though you blocked. With this the damage will be decreased as it is supposed to if your enemy pierces your block even if it is a critical hit.

I don't know if this fixes the problem, but it is a fix that should be there anyway. Please try this and see if the problem is gone.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

I installed this, but am probably not the best one to test it. What I have noticed is that overall I seem to be taking more damage. That might be the .07 thingy.

 

[Baste]

If you previously played with it set to "0.6", then yes, it's because of the Professional Fencer damage decrease change. To be precise, you don't take more damage, but the damage done to you isn't decreased as much. Damage done to you is decreased by 30% instead of 40%.

 

[Black Bart]

Awesome Baste thanks for keeping looking into this and i'll go add that change as you mentioned. What is weird is that the first 3-4 new start games i tried just about all the encounters were producing enemy NPC's that seemed to have the professional fencer perk(i'm guessing that must be what happended) and could deal full 'critical' damage through a block.

That example above in my 5th restart was the only one out of 20 odd encounters where i came across it. It's like at game start a bunch of stuff is 'seeded' in the code and sets a pattern. It might be the selection of the type of Officers you can find to recruit, or their skills and perks, or even what type of blades are more common in that specific game(many times i'll end up finding a 'clump' of same weapon types in random pick up locations, rather than a true random spread of weapon types etc).

Anyway i'll go change that code as you suggest and carry on the game start testing scenario

 

[Hylie Pistof]

Is there going to be a fix for the messed up weapons menu pictures?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I didn't know there was a bug with that? Are things actually displaying messed up altogether or is it some sort of picture/weapon mismatch?

 

[Hylie Pistof]

It's a weapons/picture mismatch. For instance the papenheimer rapier is shown as a machete or something. This was mentioned some time ago but must have fallen through the cracks.

Something else that probably been forgotten is that the wandering street merchants are messed up. The only thing they can sell is the golden cuirass. Everything else is a blank.

 

[Black Bart]

And the icon graphic for the 'Walloon Sword' is inplace of the one we used to have for the 'Small sword'. Those issues are mentioned in the PM with Sullan about the initItems.c file Pieter. It was to do with the merging of the two previous tables we had for weapons into the one single table iirc.

----------------------------

Ok i hit one of those 'bumps' using the newer LAI_fightparams.c file again. A series of 'insta-death' combats and this was after trying that new suggestion from Baste to add the line 'critical = critical*0.3;'.

This was on a new game start, Adventurer level, RPG system ON.

I've even gone directly into the code section of LAI_fightparams.c(from line 612 - 644) which deals with the new critical hit calculations, and i've tried a variety of differing values e.g. changing 'critical = damage*2.0' to 'critical = damage*1.5' and variations of that(where damage*1.0 = normal non critical damage) depending on the scale of the perk in the relevent section. I've tried reducing the base 'KDmg=' values for each of the perks etc, and even adjusting the values under the 'if(isBlocked)' section from *0.3 to *0.1 etc.

Then i reloaded the fights(over a dozen times), used F11 to reinitialize(as i had changed the code values) and still experienced lots of damage through blocks with low tier weapons. So currently it still seems very arbitrary as to how combat will work out. It probably needs more testing from game start by various people to see what their experience of it is, my concern being if it makes it into the build as the new default code, we might get lots of people getting frustrated with the high death rates

It might be the wider range of damages now in the weapons in initItems.c is not that good with this code? But then i figure if this wasn't an issue before the changes it shouldn't be now, and if it means we are resricted in how much each weapon can be modded in terms of weapon damage, that probably isn't a great thing either? Anyway more testing on this at gamestart from other people will be handy

 

[Hylie Pistof]

Yes, there are other swords with wrong pictures, like the small sword, the swept hilt rapier, and others.



As to penetrating blocks, the swords generally used to have higher block values up into the 90% range. Now the best swords are at 43%. Would that have anything to do with it?

If you need help I can take a break from working on the big ships and start a new game.

 

[Baste]

I tried to be close to Black Bart's settings, and these are the settings I recently tried my changes with:

Level: 3
Melee Combat: 3 - All other skills at 1
Abilities: Basic Defense, Advanced Defense, (Improved) Critical Hit
Melee weapon: Arabic Scimitar
Range weapon: Short pistol
Party: Just me alone
Miscellaneous: 2 Bandage

With these settings it seems to me that "instant death" is only an issue on Swashbuckler difficulty. On Adventurer or lower I have no problem, as long as I'm not getting fired upon continuously or get swarmed with enemies. Pistol shots seem to be the real danger. The melee attacks themselves aren't a problem, and I can practically block forever without getting seriously injured. Sometimes they will pierce the block and damage me, but just sometimes. On Swashbuckler, they can pierce my block quite frequently. The higher the difficulty, the higher their level and Melee skill, and thus their chance to pierce a block. This lead me to believe that the same scenario should happen with the stock critical hit code, so I tried the stock code again, but this time something was different... I found that it was easier with the stock code, but this is opposite how it is in my game, where it is easier with my changes. However, it seems the damage itself isn't the problem, but that I apparently have missed something regarding the pierce calculation. It's strange that it wasn't like this before when I tried the stock code again.

Anyway, apparently something is wrong, so I will look through it again. Will report back soon.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

I started a new game and got into my first "fight". It went as anticipated.

Level 3 with level 3 melee for the two of us.

Abilities: basic defense, advanced defense, toughness.

sword: broken Spanish rapier and good schianova

pistol: worn long pistol and good pirate pistol

bandages and potions.

It was 4 on 2 and we both died at the same time after 5 hits. 2 got past my block.

 

[Black Bart]

Yes, there are other swords with wrong pictures, like the small sword, the swept hilt rapier, and others.

Pretty sure this was due to the merged new initItems.c file Sulan has been working on, it's still not finished from the PM discussion that was going on, and he seems to be busy with other stuff, so it might just be an issue for a little while, it is just the icon graphics i suppose, but it would be nice to see the old ones back again.

As to penetrating blocks, the swords generally used to have higher block values up into the 90% range. Now the best swords are at 43%. Would that have anything to do with it?

If you need help I can take a break from working on the big ships and start a new game.

The very best weapons, the quest weapons still have the top stats(so 80-90% ranges depending on which weapon), the regular weapons now top out around the 60% mark(for pierce/block). But as the 'insta' death thing is happening on the most basic weapons(naval dirk/sabre/cutless/breadknife(even!) etc), this probably isn't the problem. You can switch back to the old LAI_fightparams file without changing any of the current weapons stats(in initItems.c) and the insta-death goes away. It's something in the new code.

And yes please do test out a starting level game, the more info we can give Baste the better

@ Baste interesting you mention the difficulty level, i was going to ask if maybe 'extra' perks(like professional fencer etc) are more likely to be given out as you go up the difficulty. Hmmm i think i'll start a new game on Apprentice level just to see if i get any of these pesky insta-death combats