Feature Request Bring Arcade ship stats into consistency

[Tingyun]

Reporting on behalf of @Redbeard : Solved - Profile Bug/Confusion | Page 2 | PiratesAhoy!

This was initially reported as a possible bug with arcade mode, but on further investigation we discovered it was a result of the arcade ship mode stats.

Wait. I thought.... oh man. I thought starter ships where the same. That... changes things. I always choose the sloop for freeplay, and it didn't occur to me that their might be differences lol.

Ok just checked.

September 13th Save Sloop ->11.98/94.33
July 28th Save - Sloop -> 16.2/ 53.77 British Design.

GOOD LORD. That is quite a difference.

Redbeard is right to be shocked. Arcade stats for ships are all over the place. Sometimes, different ships are faster depending on realistic or arcade mode. Sometimes, one ship gets a tiny boost from arcade mode, another becomes a race car on water, and both were close to the same original stats.

It would be a LARGE project involving a lot of work, but long-term I think ship stats needs to be reworked for arcade mode (NOT realistic, they seem great there).

My suggestion would be to use a formula based off the current realistic mode values, which have clearly been chosen with much more thought, and as a first pass mechanically increase or decrease stats by a certain percentage. Then, make a second pass to ensure all ships meet the minimum values to handle in a properly arcade like manner.

But someone with more experience might have a better idea.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

The reason for this is historical. The Arcade Game Mode numbers are based on stock game values and then stuff was modified and added for many years.
I think there wasn't any real focus on "consistency" while this all happened.

Then much later, a new modder decided to come up with different numbers for Realistic Game Mode and actually DID focus on consistency there.
This was combined with vastly increasing the inertia for all ships so that now you need simulated "counter-rudder" to control your ships.

So I can certainly imagine there isn't any real correlation between ship handling between both separate modes.
They're just really, substantially different in all ways.

This doesn't mean it should stay this way, of course. But at least it does explain it.


Additionally, there is the randomization from national modifiers, plus just general randomization and the randomly assigned ship upgrades.
All combined together, no two ships are really the same regardless of realism mode.

 

[Tingyun]

@Pieter Boelen that makes perfect sense, and explains the present state.

Based on that, I think then the multiplicative formula process + second pass for minimums based off realistic values that I suggested above could be a workable solution, since such a great job was done on the realistic mode, it makes sense to use it as a base for a revised arcade mode.

Someone with game experience playing arcade mode extensively would be the ideal person for the job, both in figuring out what that multiplicative factor should be, and in doing the second pass over the resulting values. Or in possiblly suggesting a better method.

It may not be the highest priority, but it might be a good way for someone to get started in doing some modding and join the team. I don't know if perhaps @Redbeard would like to give it a try? Basically, you would:

1) figure out a multiplier to use on the realistic values for speed and maneuverability (obviously, seperate values for each)

2) multiply one ship's realistic speed and realistic manuverability by those two seperate values, and test in game whether the handling and speed feels right for arcade mode

3) if not, adjust, if so, pick and test another 2 or 3 ships, covering a range of ship styles

4) once you have picked the final multipliers, compute new arcade values for every ship from the current realistic ones using that formula, and enter it into the ships file

5) Take a final look and make sure it looks reasonable, and then post the resulting file.


To be more detailed, mechanically, you'll be editing the ships_init file in PROGRAM/Ships

You'll find this part:

if(iRealismMode>0 || REALISTIC_SHIP_INERTIA){
refShip.SpeedRate = 11.5;
refShip.TurnRate = 80;
refShip.InertiaAccelerationX = 4; refShip.InertiaBrakingX = 0.5;
refShip.InertiaAccelerationY = 2; refShip.InertiaBrakingY = 0.5;
refShip.InertiaAccelerationZ = 2.5; refShip.InertiaBrakingZ = 2.0;
}else{
refShip.SpeedRate = 12.5;
refShip.TurnRate = 31;
refShip.InertiaAccelerationX = 0.2; refShip.InertiaBrakingX = 2.0;
refShip.InertiaAccelerationY = 6; refShip.InertiaBrakingY = 3;
refShip.InertiaAccelerationZ = 2.0; refShip.InertiaBrakingZ = 4.0;


The top set of values is realistic mode don't change those.

The stuff under the "else" is arcade mode.

So in this example, if I picked 1.2 as the speed multiplier, and 0.5 as the manuverability multiplier, I would:

change refShip.SpeedRate = 12.5; , 12.5 becomes 11.5*1.2=13.8, so I make it refShip.SpeedRate = 13.8;

refShip.TurnRate = 31; 31 becomes 80*.5=40, so I make it refShip.TurnRate = 40

Again, only altering the lines below the }else{

Of course, those are just examples, a multiplier should be picked that seems right to that person based on their experience.


It would take a bit of work, and some good judgement, but it isn't complex or difficult at all. Hopefully someone will volunteer, it would be especially good for someone wanting to try out modding.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Additional points:
- If it is indeed to be a multiplication factor, we could also put that factor ITSELF into the game code and then remove the 'iRealismMode' if-statement altogether (imagine the cleaner code!!!).
- But in that case, something similar needs to be done with those inertia values.

 

[Tingyun]

That sounds great!

I have no idea how inertia works on arcade mode, but someone should be able to suggest something simple to do with those.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I have no idea how inertia works on arcade mode

Exactly the same as on Realistic! The numbers are just lower.

Actually, the reason the numbers are higher on Realistic is a "hack" that happens to work surprisingly well.
The Arcade numbers are "normal".

 

[ANSEL]

I play arcade mode most of the time, and I must say I,m pretty satisfied with
it as it are now.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I play arcade mode most of the time, and I must say I,m pretty satisfied with
it as it are now.

Thanks!

I think the only true "gameplay issue" here is that a ship that is better in Realistic Game Mode is not necessarily better in Arcade.
But I don't think that is a very big issue. I doubt players will be switching back and forth very often. Either they use the one or the other.

 

[Tingyun]

I don't personally care as I only play realistic.

It may be that long-time players no longer notice the oddness of the stats, because they are used to it.

But for new players, the current stats are so all over the map that @Redbeard was convinced he had a bug until I talked him through it.

One would assume long-time players would not be harmed by making the stats more sensible, even if they weren't particularly bothered by the old system anymore, and it might actually improve things for them. Meanwhile, it would make it more understandable for the new ones.

But I made this post for the sake of @Redbeard , to get his issue reported, and I don't have a personal stake. Maybe Redbeard can tell us whether he would like the stats to be made more sensible and consistent?

At any rate, sadly, I better be off for real now, as addictively fun as participating in the great discussions here is. Bye everyone,

 

[ANSEL]

@Pieter Boelen says:I doubt players will be switching back and forth very often. Either they use the one or the other.

I will say one out of ten of my games is played in realistic mode.

 

[Tingyun]

Just a final clarification:

The issue isn't switching back and forth between modes, it is that the arcade stats aren't particularly sensible for the ship models, and don't make sense in relation to other arcade mode ships. Meaning the problem is when you compare two ships within arcade mode, their stats don't always make sense.

Using the realistic mode as a basis is only because those have already been carefully designed to be sensible for the ships, so it provides an easy shortcut to improving arcade mode stats

In other words, the goal would be to make the stats sensible for those ships in arcade mode, to make them better for the models they are attached to--relationship to realistic mode is just a simple heuristic, not the end goal.

 

[Redbeard]

Well, its going to really depend on what people want for the final product.

For instance, before modifying any of the game files, I think that actual direction needs to be clarified. Lets look at arcade mode as a whole. What is its purpose? Is it a faster version of the main mod? Allowing for fast travel and quicker battle times? Or are we going for a simplified version of the mod, that focuses on vanilla/stock/original POTC gameplay, with the exception of new ships and features? Alot of the mod is optional, with various checks, (I personally play with cannon gunpowder on, but pistol charges off.) so perhaps one could go for a completely vanilla experience with the new graphics and ships.

With New Horizons, we can approach the ship issue in one of two ways. In arcade mode, should the ships reflect similar to stock vanilla values, or should we be focusing on a more historical version like New Horizons realism mode. Afterall, even ships of the same class, historically performed a bit different. Ships are not factory made, but hand made, and in real life performance could vary considerably based on construction materials and conditions. I came from Sid Meier's Pirates, and various other open ended games, and I assume that one ship type works a certain way. In Sid Meier's Pirates and Port Royale 2, a Sloop is a sloop, is a sloop. It has one upgradeable speed. The random variation could be seen as a FEATURE of the game, and I'm not sure I'd want to remove that from the base mod. I could however, see making a personal mod or something that adjusts ship values.

Long story short, now that I see what's going on, maybe its a feature that one sloop handles so differently. Especially since I have NO IDEA how stock POTC handles ship variations. Are vanilla sloops all the same? Or are there stat differences? I don't feel that I have enough experience with the game itself to really have any say in the matter, as I've been playing the game for a whole month. Should the stat differences be narrowed down or widened? I cannot say. Its going to depend on what the goal and vision of arcade is. For what its worth, I came to new horizons looking for POTC +. I wanted that arcadey open world gameplay. If it where up to me, I'd be changing values to be more in line with vanilla, and if vanilla has no stat changes I'd make things more gamey. Gamey meaning that each 'class' of ship should perform pretty similarly.

With arcade mode, rigging isn't a big issue. Neither is point of sail. When you remove these two things from the situation, suddenly ships handle mostly the same if they have similar stats. Its pretty jarring, for instance I captured a 6th rate Frigate that moves faster than my sloop, and turns marginally slower which goes against everything I know gameplay wise. Again, when we add in rigging, and points of sail, things are alot different. Since arcade mode doesn't really use these....

Well... thats a wall of text.

TL;DR: I don't feel arcade mode should be messed with by someone as inexperienced as me. At least unless its a modfile/optional feature of New Horizons. The variation between ships within a class probably reflects real life better. However if we modify arcade to be more 'gamey' we should have a clearer vision of what we want arcade mode to be, especially with ships being such a big part of gameplay.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Are vanilla sloops all the same?

All the same, yes. All the variation is mod-added.

TL;DR: I don't feel arcade mode should be messed with by someone as inexperienced as me. At least unless its a modfile/optional feature of New Horizons. The variation between ships within a class probably reflects real life better. However if we modify arcade to be more 'gamey' we should have a clearer vision of what we want arcade mode to be, especially with ships being such a big part of gameplay.

I generally play on Arcade Game Mode the most, purely because it makes for far quicker testing.
Other than that, I vastly prefer the concept of the more realistic game modes.

A very gamey approach is that such a thing as a "best" ship actually exists. So a "Class 1" ship would objectively be better than a "Class 2" ship.
PotC isn't set up like that at the moment. Instead, different ships are good for different purposes. So the "best" ship depends on what you want.
Would you imagine that should be changed then?

 

[Redbeard]

Thats what Im not sure about. Should we keep it the same way? Changing any ship stats across the board for arcade is going to change things. I think we should keep it as is.

In real life a 1st rate was far better than a 2nd rate during line battles, whereas a 5th rate was better for patrolling, interceptions, etc. (at least in my limited understanding of naval warfare. More of a land warfare knowledge guy myself.) This makes more sense. When I mean gamey, I mean further defining each role. Again, a sloop was ALWAYS quicker and more maneuverable than say a fluyt in Pirates! This made for good gameplay as you found your favorite class and stuck with it. In the current POTC, you have a very good chance of stumbling across a larger ship that is faster, and can outrun a sloop.

With arcade, no point of sail make a big difference. Same with rigging. Ive outrun pirate sloops in my 6th rate frigate with no upgrades. From a 'gamey' perspective that shouldn't be possible as you want balance across the board. From a realism perspective it makes a bit more sense.

This is why I'm hesitant to change anything.

I tested two fresh starts each with a sloop, and one had an was a 11/92 and the other was a 16/58 where speed/turn rate. That is a pretty massive difference. One can outrun most things, one can't outrun your average barque! Bringing them inline would require a more gamey approach, but I'm not certain it SHOULD be done. Depends what you are going for here.

 

[ANSEL]

I think we should keep arcade mod as it is. We want a game, not a simulator. I think there have been to much focus
on realism lately. Realism is a god thing in the game, but only to a certain point. As I say POTC is a game, not a simulator.
I play for Adventure and Action and enjoy all the beauty things in the game, not for realism.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Wait, what? Nobody was suggesting anything even remotely like changing Arcade mode into a simulator.
Why would we want that? It's Arcade!

The only thing @Tingyun suggested was to have the relative differences between ships the same as in Realistic Game Mode.
But Arcade would still be faster and more manoeuvrable, just like it is now.
You would probably not notice much of a difference if this is done.

And @Redbeard was suggesting the very opposite: to make it even *less* realistic than it is now.

For the record, it is totally possible for larger ships to be faster than smaller ones.
A longer hull gives a higher hull speed. And more sail area gives more forward force.

 

[Levis]

if we are going to do this I also prefer to use some math to calculate the new values ingame and have only 1 set of parameters per ship.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

To further clarify on the original suggestion, the idea is that a ship with a higher turn rate than another in Realistic also has a higher turn rate than that other ship in Arcade.
In other words: If you know what ships are "good" in one of the two modes, the same applies to the other one.

This is different from the current situation, where the stats of the ships basically have no correlation between the two modes. So a ship could be terrible in Realistic, but completely awesome in Arcade.
That is somewhat weird, but should only really be bothersome for players who use both modes and would like to be able to reuse their experience on ship handling between them.

If we do it as @Levis and I suggest, then this does have the added advantage of cleaning up ships_init.c quite substantially by getting rid of all those realism mode if-statements.
We might even be able to go as far as to have the Arcade modifiers outside ships_init.c altogether,
which would hopefully mean you can switch realism modes in mid-game and the ship handling would immediately update without requiring a Reinitialization.


What @Redbeard suggests is to remove the randomization on ship stats in Arcade Game Mode.
While valid, I think that is also a separate request. I'm not sure if there is a toggle on that now, but I don't think it should be very hard to add that.
This would mean that a "Lugger1" always has the same stats, regardless of nationality and without randomization applied.

My suggestion to Redbeard: If you want that, start a new Feature Request thread for it.
Specify there also if you want to maintain the national modifiers at all.

 

[ANSEL]

But this randomization on ship stats in Arcade Game Mode is making the game more exciting .
I think it will be very very sad, if the ships always has the same stats, regardless of nationality and without randomization applied.
The fact ship are different in this way is one of the things that make arcade mode worth playing.
If a Lugger or a Sloop always is the same, the game will loose a vital "Spice")

 

[Pieter Boelen]

But this randomization on ship stats in Arcade Game Mode is making the game more exciting .
I think it will be very very sad, if the ships always has the same stats, regardless of nationality and without randomization applied.
The fact ship are different in this way is one of the things that make arcade mode worth playing.
If a Lugger or a Sloop always is the same, the game will loose a vital "Spice)

I fully agree.

As per my above post, "removing the randomization" is NOT the point of this thread. If desired by anyone, a separate thread should be started for it.
It is only @Redbeard who would want this anyway (as far as I know), so if he really does want it, a TOGGLE can be added on it (which defaults to the current situation, of course!).
Then he can switch it off if he wants and for everybody else, nothing changes.

I can guarantee you that the default mod settings will remain for absolute certain to KEEP the randomization.
So don't worry about that one.