B14 troubles

[CoastGuard71]

Guys, I'm on W7Pro not 10... whatever is going on is due to restrictions embedded in 7 not 10. Will anyone using 7 comment about this? This did not happen with previous builds so it's reasonable to suspect something was introduced that conflicts with the Lenovo chip set or the W7Pro... right? I'm looking at what is in play, what the error message hints at... not really helpful in diagnosing problems is it? I'm left with guessing.

Lenovo Intel965 chip set is what I am working with... has been good in previous builds... what about this is creating a conflict... error messages say DX8Render.dll is being corrupted... hence the in-game failure experienced. When the files are inspected I find two Radeon85 files that did not exist prior to this failure and the cryptic error message implicates duplicate Radeon85 which is unique to NVIDIA graphics code... right? Deleting the two Radeon85 inserts does not restore play... could MS security be involved, flagging the error as malware that persists even when the two insertions are removed? Is this the smoke that indicates a fire? Focus on W7 issues and limits. W7 actually uses DX9, could retrograde DX8 use be creating a conflict that was not previously conflicting? What about previous builds is so different from v22(24)? Any big change in graphics handling code could be problematic and generate errors like this. MS security has been a problem with Lenovo using W7, causing denial of allowing application drivers because they are not "digitally signed"... of all things!? MS demands contacting the application creator for a digital signature before MS allows the driver use!

Any incompatibility with the NVIDIA additions or changes in B14v22(24)? Why did this not happen in v19, 18, 17, 16...etc. If you alter something and errors appear you have altered something that is inconsistent with the code that previously worked. So, what alterations took place? I have no way of knowing... all I can do is provide the symptoms of the disease to you doctors of the code who should be able to at least guess as what is in play that creates such a conflict that the error messages describe... that's what they're for... troubleshooting problems caused by altering the code with incompatible routines conflicting with the logic.

Would be nice if anyone using W7Pro on a Lenovo T61 notebook would comment. Is not rational that these events are unique to only my notebook and the dozen different HD/SSD C and USB drives I'm using... I believe we can rule out an individual drive corruption being replicated in so many different and unique drives. I've run malware scans using three different commonly used and up to date malware applications with zero hits. Everything points to code incompatibility with the strangely irreproducible...

adjective​

1. That cannot be reproduced or duplicated.
2. Impossible to reproduce or duplicate.

...restoring of play after an extended period of idle time. Explain restoration of play after booting an unaffected play source, like from a USB drive of an earlier version. Sounds like an intermittent error flag being set and timing out, or reset, after inactivity of a period of time. Anything like that in the code? How about those crazy things MS causes when installed in PROGRAM(86) folders? Isn't that bizarre enough to intrigue some clever coder to investigate?

Right now I'm dealing with a VPN mystery. Privado VPN offers security and is Swiss in origin, or claims to be. So I installed it for trial. Suddenly EDGE and Firefox(DuckDuckGo) cannot link to the Net... Only when I delete PRIVADO is my Internet access restored... Explain that? Is my Lenovo haunted with evil malware spirits? No, there is an obvious conflict with something P runs in the background blocking my Internet link to my Comcast service.

So. my question to those who were involved in B14v22(24) is... what did you do to the working code that causes this dysfunction? Either it's you or MacroStupid... did you use W10 subs that are not W7 compatible? W7 users not having this issue would deselect the code alterations, leaving only Lenovo or MS security as the source of this. Since previous Builds did not exhibit this error the Lenovo is not the cause. Forced security updates by the 5-Ton OS "Gorilla" (MS) is a possible cause for W7... not W10... these changes are most likely directed to W10, since that is what MS is trying to force on users. Any chance the NVIDIA Radeon85 calls are inserting into the code that in W7 is only compatible with Intel965 chip set? Just throwing out possibilities that seem consistent with observations... would enjoy hearing other ideas how these facts can be reconciled with this demonstrated reality.

Thanks for taking the time to think about this even if it's not bothering you

So here is at least one account of everything working properly - including with Windows 10 and Intel graphics. Thank you for your reply, @AkrimalS!

Win7Pro? Lenovo T61... MS forced security updates? Not totally replicated circumstances

 

[Baste]

It is likely that not many are using Windows 7 these days, and even less likely that someone uses a computer model similar to yours.
I'm using Windows 7 Professional 64-bit at the moment because of compatibility with older software for projects that I have not yet migrated - and I don't get any of the problems you have described. Limited testing, but the modpack runs without error and doesn't crash or show any other obvious problem.
I think @Grey Roger also uses Windows 7 - probably also without any Build Mod issue, but he would have to confirm that himself.

I don't know what that "radeon85" stuff is about, and likely neither does somebody else or else I guess they would have replied. Also, Radeon is an AMD brand, formerly by ATI. NVIDIA has GeForce.
Windows 7 can use DirectX 11.
If drivers show up as unsigned they are either indeed not signed, or an indication of a system environment installation that is not valid.

Would be nice if anyone using W7Pro on a Lenovo T61 notebook would comment.

Would be, but unlikely that anyone does.

Is not rational that these events are unique to only my notebook and the dozen different HD/SSD C and USB drives I'm using... I believe we can rule out an individual drive corruption being replicated in so many different and unique drives.

It is in fact rational that problems such as these would appear if the drives have invalid clone installations.

I've run malware scans using three different commonly used and up to date malware applications with zero hits. Everything points to code incompatibility with the strangely irreproducible...

Malware would have nothing to do with it. All these issues - Build Mod and otherwise - point to a faulty system environment.

Explain restoration of play after booting an unaffected play source, like from a USB drive of an earlier version.

Inexplicable, like how it is for previous versions seemingly having worked. Not unlikely to be because of a faulty system environment. Would you care to try to explain why you are the only one experiencing these problems? If the code had errors such as these one could think that the forum would be filled with reports of it.
It is of course theoretically possible that the program code has some obscure incompatibility with the firmware and hardware of your computers, but without having access to those models we cannot find out. We can, however, point to a clean install as a possible solution.

Right now I'm dealing with a VPN mystery. Privado VPN offers security and is Swiss in origin, or claims to be. So I installed it for trial. Suddenly EDGE and Firefox(DuckDuckGo) cannot link to the Net... Only when I delete PRIVADO is my Internet access restored... Explain that? Is my Lenovo haunted with evil malware spirits? No, there is an obvious conflict with something P runs in the background blocking my Internet link to my Comcast service.

Obviously something isn't working correctly - much like that the Build Mod doesn't work likely because of a faulty system environment.

Since previous Builds did not exhibit this error the Lenovo is not the cause.

I wasn't asked, but I'll reply anyway: Yes, your computer is a possible cause of these problems if the system environment wasn't configured correctly. This can be because of reasons such as a setting in the BIOS/UEFI, a driver problem, or an invalid clone installation being used on too different hardware.

Win7Pro? Lenovo T61... MS forced security updates? Not totally replicated circumstances

Impossible to replicate exactly without access to identical models. What can be shown is that the Build Mod runs without problem on different hardware and different versions of Windows.
If you believe "forced security updates" are a possible cause, why don't you do a clean install and go through each update manually as I mentioned previously? Then no update would be forced onto the system without your knowledge.

Everything I have said across the various threads about this is linked to experience as a qualified computer repair technician, so I have an idea of what I'm talking about and am not merely talking out of my ass.
But sure, please, by all means, perhaps the United States Coast Guard has more knowledge, experience, and training regarding various computer problems than most qualified technicians who work with this. Perhaps clone installations are best practice, and invalid firmware and hardware references are not a thing!
Am I guaranteeing that a clean installation would solve the problems? Not at all, but from experience I can say that it is very much worth a try.

You can of course keep trying in your own way, and only the Build Mod developers would be able to give more information about the code changes, but please understand that no one is likely to be able to really do anything since they apparently don't get these problems and thus can't look into it in more detail.

 

[CoastGuard71]

@CoastGuard71

Licensing has been a part of Windows since at least Windows 95. Activation being tied to the computer's hardware has been a part of Windows since Windows XP. These are not new things. It is expected behavior if Windows asks for reactivation when used on hardware that is too different from the hardware on which it was installed.

If updates are being pushed onto Windows 7 it is because it is set to automatically download and install them or that they were not manually checked before downloading and installing them.
I suggest and myself use the third option, "Check for updates but let me choose whether to download and install them", as shown here: https://www.computerhope.com/issues/pictures/windowsupdate.png
When updates are available I can then view them in the list, and for each and every one of them there is a link to that specific update's information page which I then click on so that I can check for myself what each update does before downloading it. For this it helps to have another browser installed, such as the Windows 7 version of Chrome or Firefox ESR. If an update adds something undesirable I right-click on it and choose to "hide" the update so that it won't show up anymore, won't be downloaded, and won't be installed.
Yes, it is tedious to do and takes a lot of time, but by doing this I have a properly updated system without any telemetry or "Get Windows 10" stuff on any of my Windows 7 computers and nothing gets pushed onto them.

From what I understand all of your drives with Windows installations on them have clone installations. Clone installations are supposed to only be used on computers with identical firmware and hardware - same BIOS/UEFI version and settings, same model of motherboard, chipset, CPU, and other hardware. When transferred to other firmware and hardware the installation is not valid as the system environment has references to settings and hardware that are not present, and this is likely to lead to errors.

It is also not strange if Windows then asks for reactivation as it correctly detects that the hardware is too different from the hardware on which it was originally installed. Windows licenses typically are for one license per computer and as such the same license key cannot be used on more than one computer. A license can be transferred from one computer to another provided that the Windows installation and thus the license key are removed from the previous computer and that a reactivation is done on the new computer. One can have opinions on whether or not it should be allowed to use the same license key on more than one computer, but at least it is possible to transfer a license.

If I have then understood correctly and your Windows installations are clone installations - or installed on one computer and then simply moved to another computer with different firmware and hardware - it is because of this likely that you get errors. A clean installation is always preferred as the circumstances are then as good as possible for the lowest likelihood of errors.

Yes, it is strange that it seemingly works when the drive is connected via USB, but as I said errors and weird behavior are likely to occur when the system environment in itself is not correct.

Here are some examples of things I have seen that don't make sense:
- A game running too slow unless a joystick was connected to the game port, despite not being configured to use a joystick.
- A computer being unable to connect to a certain wireless network, even though both computer and network followed the same 802.11 standard, even though it was able to connect to other networks, even though other computers were able to connect to the network, and no hindrances were in place on the access point.
- Wi-Fi routers of the exact same model behaving differently even though they were configured with the same firmware version and settings.

Weird things happen and if the sensible solutions don't work it can sometimes be worthwhile to try something else. It might not make sense to you that you have these problems and you are free to keep trying to solve them in your preferred way, but seeing as apparently no one else has these problems, I think it wouldn't hurt to try a clean install. It would give the best possible conditions as it is a fresh start with the lowest likelihood of errors and it just might solve the problems, and even if it doesn't it would at least be an attempted solution and at this point it might be worthwhile to try since the previous attempts at solving the problems haven't worked.
I do however have understanding for a reluctance to do it since it is tedious to zero-fill the HDD/secure erase the SSD, install Windows, have the proper drivers prepared beforehand and install them, manually check each update and wait for them to download and install, and everything else associated with a clean install of Windows 7. But, if it is what is necessary, then unfortunately it has to be done.

As I've said I myself don't get any of the problems in my limited testing and I don't play the Build Mod, but we can do a direct question to people who do have more experience with the Build Mod, such as the current maintainer of Build Mod version 14: @Grey Roger himself.
We can also ask people such as @Pieter Boelen, @AkrimalS, @Hammie, and @DH27.
Do any of you have any of the problems that CoastGuard71 is having? Can you reproduce the problems? Do you have any ideas of what in the code or anything else that could be looked at to try to solve the problems? Do you think something in the code might be the problem or do you think the problem is somewhere else?

It is of course these individuals' own choice if they want to reply at all or if they even read or even see this post - just like how it is for everyone else - but the question can be asked. Since I do know that people have reported problems before it is reasonable that they would also report these problems if they experienced them.


This I don't quite understand what you mean. An NVIDIA graphics driver for Windows 7 can be installed regardless of support for Windows 7 having ended. The game is supposed to work with GeForce and Radeon graphics chips. The "Intel compatibility fix" adds a workaround so that Intel graphics chips can also be used.

In any case, I think I have done what is reasonable in this matter, and I'm not a Build Mod developer so any issue that might exist in it in regards to these problems will not be handled by me.

Thanks for the info... I was never aware of this "license" issue and it has never been an issue in the past as I move SSD/HD around my 4 T61s that
I have. Suddenly MS is getting overwrought about licensing so much so that they actually published online a statement of policy that I've never seen. I've used W7 drives on my T510 tried on the T540P but gave up because of imaging issues. Oddly both bear original W7 key stickers showing they originally had W7 OS. In the previous 10 years Licensing has never been an issue as I've moved drives between computers... now it is? The T510 has activated and licensed W10Pro and runs the game without issue... however I've not been playing as long or often on it for this issue to raise it's ugly head. I did play on T61s for some time before this problem... even though I have denied updates (settings) security is still forcing updates since MS apparently has a hidden override built it... this is business software intended user.

BTW there's nothing weird using a drive with USB adapter... usually have to mount the drive to get a letter ID assigned so It shows on the computer list and I can access it... just strange that using it as the C gives the error, disconnect and used as USB runs the program with no problem.
Now, that is an isolation clue as to what is involved in the error... I'm not savvy enough as you who make a living with computers and codes,,, so I'm asking for your guesses and suggestions. Rebuilding a drive is a lot of time and effort and possible loss of valuable records and applications on those drives... I cringe every time I do a cleanup or /f, /r cmd since I never know if things are going to stay viable. Just defragging a drive caused it to become W7 inactivated with warnings I was the "victim of fraudulent software". Windows is spooky enough. As I've pointed out IT'S NOT THE DRIVE... OTHERWISE ALL 12 OF MY SSD/HD'S ARE AFFECTED...not reasonable or likely. The original came from a retired SYSOP computer... so it's probably hygienic.

Review the images of error messages... involves graphics rendering corruption of DX8 by NVIDIA inserting RADEON85... why? Is this misguided interpretation by MS diagnostics? Focus on that clue and describe why it is or explain it away as a misguided artifact of bad MS diagnostics. Did W7 security flag this since removing the RADEON85 code lines does not restore the program. Why after an unspecific off time does the program run? But, after running and shutting down for an unspecific time sometimes runs... usually fails.

Is this issue unique to my T61 using the same W7Pro version... Not 10 not W7Home... the Pro has ridiculous security traps due to it's intended use in business where a highly trained expert sets the functional limits and the minions are blocked from making ANY changes. Trouble is I'm the Adm but don't have sufficient privileges to do many things that I used to do because of update changes that have taken away my control of my computer..

The clones were made onto new and "clean" SSD/HD... not overwrites. Even my original drive is victim to this bug that has only appeared in B14v22/24... never prior... hence, something that was changed in the graphics subprogram has an unintended pathway resulting in conflict reported as this error. Did nobody bother to Beta test each module before incorporating? Explain this away...

I really do appreciate your insight and expertise in these very enjoyable discussions... having retired I miss the interactions with colleagues in problem solving some very tough issues. Since this is C++ I'm out of my FORTRAN element and can only fall back on my computer program logic that this different symbolism uses to explain cause and effect. Stick with the specifics of the event and speculate, since it is limited to the graphics rendering module, what will cause such a result. There's no hardware involved... this issue is code logic specific, in my opinion.

Persuade me otherwise?

Follow the Trades, Mate

It is likely that not many are using Windows 7 these days, and even less likely that someone uses a computer model similar to yours.
I'm using Windows 7 Professional 64-bit at the moment because of compatibility with older software for projects that I have not yet migrated - and I don't get any of the problems you have described. Limited testing, but the modpack runs without error and doesn't crash or show any other obvious problem.
I think @Grey Roger also uses Windows 7 - probably also without any Build Mod issue, but he would have to confirm that himself.

I don't know what that "radeon85" stuff is about, and likely neither does somebody else or else I guess they would have replied. Also, Radeon is an AMD brand, formerly by ATI. NVIDIA has GeForce.
Windows 7 can use DirectX 11.
If drivers show up as unsigned they are either indeed not signed, or an indication of a system environment installation that is not valid.


Would be, but unlikely that anyone does.


It is in fact rational that problems such as these would appear if the drives have invalid clone installations.


Malware would have nothing to do with it. All these issues - Build Mod and otherwise - point to a faulty system environment.


Inexplicable, like how it is for previous versions seemingly having worked. Not unlikely to be because of a faulty system environment. Would you care to try to explain why you are the only one experiencing these problems? If the code had errors such as these one could think that the forum would be filled with reports of it.
It is of course theoretically possible that the program code has some obscure incompatibility with the firmware and hardware of your computers, but without having access to those models we cannot find out. We can, however, point to a clean install as a possible solution.


Obviously something isn't working correctly - much like that the Build Mod doesn't work likely because of a faulty system environment.


I wasn't asked, but I'll reply anyway: Yes, your computer is a possible cause of these problems if the system environment wasn't configured correctly. This can be because of reasons such as a setting in the BIOS/UEFI, a driver problem, or an invalid clone installation being used on too different hardware.


Impossible to replicate exactly without access to identical models. What can be shown is that the Build Mod runs without problem on different hardware and different versions of Windows.
If you believe "forced security updates" are a possible cause, why don't you do a clean install and go through each update manually as I mentioned previously? Then no update would be forced onto the system without your knowledge.

Everything I have said across the various threads about this is linked to experience as a qualified computer repair technician, so I have an idea of what I'm talking about and am not merely talking out of my ass.
But sure, please, by all means, perhaps the United States Coast Guard has more knowledge, experience, and training regarding various computer problems than most qualified technicians who work with this. Perhaps clone installations are best practice, and invalid firmware and hardware references are not a thing!
Am I guaranteeing that a clean installation would solve the problems? Not at all, but from experience I can say that it is very much worth a try.

You can of course keep trying in your own way, and only the Build Mod developers would be able to give more information about the code changes, but please understand that no one is likely to be able to really do anything since they apparently don't get these problems and thus can't look into it in more detail.

Windows 7 appears to still be running on at least 100 million machines, despite Microsoft ending support for the operating system a year ago. ZDNet has been analyzing the proportion of PCs still running Windows 7 across various analytics reports. While each data source pegs Windows 7 at different percentages of market share, most agree that the OS still makes up for around 20 percent of PCs.

The ThinkPad T61 is a premium, business-class laptop computer manufactured originally by IBM, which sold the rights to Lenovo.[1] A ThinkPad, it was part of the T series, and was first manufactured in 2006. It was offered as a modular platform, allowing buyers to customize most all of its major features, including processor speed, amount of RAM and hard disk storage, screen size and resolution, quality and speed of video card, and additional capabilities such as a fingerprint reader, smart card reader, and Zip drive.[

If you look into my posting you will find an image of the error diagnostic that show duplicate RADEON85 as issues involved in the load failure affecting the DX8Render.dll. This is NOT my statement it is reported by MS diagnostics of the failure mode... please review as satisfaction of this issue.

I'm using 4 (four) different T61, all showing the same problem using 12 different SSD/HD and an equal number of USB drives... that in prior versions did not show this error and ran the games without fault until v18 when sinking a target companion vessel freezes the screen... a graphics problem? No, more likely a save game problem overflow. That rules out setting in the BIOS... or the C or USB devices which have performed without this fault in the past years and various revisions.

I worked 4 years at CGHQ in Washington DC in office of Research and Development and Office of Environmental and Transportation Technology, as a science officer on multiple projects including expert systems development for a new class of cutters, environmental applications and issues requiring FORTRAN modeling and attended many classes of instruction in various languages in use for business programming at that time. On release I returned to graduate studies at U of Missouri, in the Arts and Sciences school where I obtained MS and PhD in Analytical Chemistry with emphasis in environmental modeling. I just might meet the qualifications of technician in FORTRAN as I took programming classes in applied physical chemistry modeling in undergrad and graduate classes for computer programming. However C was just emerging as a business language since FORTRAN was a lot more symbolic in nature not compatible with business majors using common language forms of programming. Until July 1995 I would return on active duty to work on critical environmental and operational issues that required computer skills and programming development.

I certainly respect your knowledge and experience which is why I seek you out from the crowd to discuss this issue I'm suddenly confronting after nearly a decade of using this game with only minor problems. You are the only expert that is willing to deal with this at my level of understanding and my zeal to continue play of this fun game. My critical scientist nature drives me to solve this problem that I cannot do alone since this C++ is not my area of expertise... I rely on you but I do know functional symptoms since they are the same in logic regardless of the code used. Think logic progression to an end result. Why this version, this result, these diagnostics, explain why, as documented, two lines of NVIDIA code show up inserted into the game code when only the Intel965 chips are present... not explainable is it?

As stated the clone came from a W7Pro C drive used in a SYSOP T61... how much more reliable a source can you get? Same BIOS, same OS, same code source... not much room for digression?

Instead of casting about for infinitely variable unknowns let's focus on the clues we have from the source. That's a relevant starting point. Why this version and no prior version? Another specific clue. What security updates have been forced into the OS that could cause this that haven't existed in past games. Why when error occurs does the same error appear when prior versions are played, but only after playing then downtime then restart results in this error block? These are behaviors that come from a common cause.

As always I appreciate your insight and skills in dealing with problematic programs.

 

[Baste]

All posts about this discussion have been moved from the other thread to this thread as this is a more appropriate place. Please keep further posts about this discussion in this thread.

At the moment I would just risk repeating myself but I will add that it seems that most Build Mod developers aren't active anymore.

 

[CoastGuard71]

I downloaded and installed the latest update from scratch using all the parts currently available onto my T61 C drive, I then copied the British PROGRAM module from Baste's provided British games, and have been playing for two days as of today without the "DX8Render.dll" crash. This on a T61 I used as a reserve for other applications and not subject to Push updates by being on NET when I boot in the morning. This was a former SYSOP computer and has extra guards against unwanted updates. So far so good... still playing even after overnight downtime.

Keeping fingers crossed...

CG71

 

[CoastGuard71]

I need to remind all that the version I'm discussing is the British version Baste kindly modded to limit the game to only the Free Play and Tales of a Sea Hawk... further modded due to my Lenovo T61 having only the Intel965 chip set and no NVIDIA capability. Two zip downloads were provided one subtitled No Intel (NVIDIA version?) which I processed and run on my Lenovo T510 with NVIDIA onboard... the other bore no subtitle which I took to be the version with Intel Fix added. This I processed and downloaded but failed to mark or discriminate use only on T61. It is very possible and probable that version was working when used on the T61. However, since I didn't tag the No Intel version it may be what is causing the problem when run on the T61. Having spent time unzipping those files I merely copied replicates to various drives USB/SSD/HD and have no label differentiating.

I recently did a new install of the June revision from MODDB replace the PROGRAM file with the Baste Brit version and have been playing it on a T61 with no problem for several days. I'm beginning to suspect those which exhibit the error are the No Intel version being run on T61s not NVIDIA capable causing this fault. Comments? Is this theory reasonable? I see a logic casual link possible and no one has come up with any other explanation.

My T510 W10Pro NVIDIA capable has run the No Intel version without issue and as I commented previously is strikingly more visually fun with depth perception and vivid colors adding to the enjoyment. This is why no one else is reporting similar problems running this British modded variant on their Lenovo T61 W7Pro system, which itself is not that common. How many players are aware this British variant was available for the brief time Baste made it available for download, how many downloads took place? I imagine no one else was aware of this variant and knew of this opportunity even though I commented on how much I enjoyed this simplified game choice and British version features.

BTW, as said previously, in SETTINGS I have deselected updates and get frequent messages to reset it so that updates can be downloaded automatically... not my choice. I have read that MS does not support W7 and will not update the OS... however I have, in fact, experienced a ~15 minutes download on booting my T61 with the Internet function active, without my permission or any button to cancel or means of stopping this action... this was a Push download action that was not permitted by setting. I have read that security updates are forced overriding any restriction in Settings. Since then the frequent blocks for drivers not digitally signed have appeared while running apps that I've used for years and I no longer have "Sufficient Privileges" to access files that I previously used. Something changed and it wasn't done with my approval. I no longer boot any T61 with WiFi/Internet active.
“End of support” for Windows 7 means the operating system itself no longer gets fixes. Other software, like Windows Security Essentials or Microsoft Office, are technically not part of the operating system and may be supported for a longer time. Their updates, and possibly that of other non-operating system components, continue to be delivered via Windows 7’s Windows Update mechanism.

I'm left with deleting those downloads that error out and replace with my most recent PA! update download with PROGRAM from Baste's British version dropped in to give the same game play without this bizarre issue. So far after several days of play no issues... I may have solved my problem on my own.

 

[CoastGuard71]

Still having problems with the June update game. Ship images are not showing in the game after battle during the assimilation processing. I may have to delete and reinstall this game if code was dropped during installation. Mutiny is very overdone in this version happens far too much for no reason at all... not very intelligent since it is not consistent with the period. Used to be a cheat to turn off the mutiny subprogram... what happened to that? GR... how do I find the module and turn it off? This is ridiculous and incredibly irritating. What happened to the No Mutiny cheat? Is it still in the code and how can I activate it? Baste, do you know where any of this is?

I would really appreciate help cleaning this out of the game.

Thanks Maties,
CG71

 

[Grey Roger]

Presumably the mutiny is happening because you have too much money and the crew are becoming envious. This is now prevented by getting a Merchant Licence. It tells your crew that you are an honest, law-abiding, peaceful trader. You can get a licence from the East India Trading Company office in Port Royale, the Dutch West India Company office in Willemstad on Curacao, or the Casa de Contratacion in Cartagena. It will cost you a lot of money - but then, you have that money if your crew are becoming envious.

Or you can start a game as a merchant character. Then you get a licence for free.

Or you can switch to paying the crew by dividing loot, which is what they want you to do and will mutiny if you don't. They don't like risking their lives just so you can keep all the gold for yourself! The reason mutinies didn't happen often in reality is that pirate and privateer captains did split prize money with their crews.

Once you have signed articles with the crew, you'll need to split the loot every so often, otherwise they'll mutiny again - you promised to share the gold with them, so keep your promise! The original way to do this was at a loanshark, but a recent addition allows you to talk to your quartermaster on your ship's deck while you are moored in port - very useful if you're in a port which doesn't have a loanshark.

 

[CoastGuard71]

Ahoy GR!

OK, now tell me how much is "too much"? This is entirely arbitrary and makes no sense at all... at that time I had just begun and had only 1.9M GC... not large enough to instigate a mutiny in any past versions I've played. There are no banks to park the money... costs of repair and updating ships is high requiring such nominal amounts. I asked about the previous "No loot mutiny" cheat What happened to that? Who took it out and why?

Every time I captured a prize, established my prize crew and began sailing to my destination I had a mutiny on the prize ship... this is absurd! This was not a "too much loot" instigated mutiny but arbitrary and a departure from past game play. Again, this feature has become overdone like Gmail security checks or MS security blocks.

Who changed the status and why is this not continuity of play? It is disruptive since the play scheme is dramatically changed for no good reason or benefit of reality in play... during this period mutiny was rare because it was a death sentence that the British Navy pursued such criminals to the ends of the earth to capture and hang participants...1789 mutiny on the Bounty is a typical example.

In this revision mutiny has become as common as bilge rats and is an irritating disruption of play. Not in any way representative of the period and is the personal instigation of a coder that enjoys making obstacles for players.. a rather sadistic individual to think of such a thing as "enjoyable" play. Neither authentic nor conducive to realistic play.

Forcing players to get a License from the East India Co. is a farce since crew does not respect such a piece of paper or can even read it! Mutinies were not prevented by waving a piece of paper in front of the crew! This is the idea of someone who has no knowledge of the period or human behavior in this time.

This is a gimmick... players do not want or need gimmicks! Game play in previous versions did not feature this gimmick and were just as enjoyable without it. Another Gimmick is the crew demanding payment... crew demands on the captain were mutinous events... the captain was the representative of the King while at sea and had the same powers including putting to death for such actions. Besides, it is false. The crew would be "paid off" at the end of the deployment and not before... check historical records. What could they do with gold coins onboard ship and rarely going ashore at ports. Crews with money would desert at every port visited. Another reason is Crew deserting at ports would be criminals with death by hanging when caught. Coders need to read true and factual records from the period if they really want to recreate the time and life. This game has so many defects it is no realistic version of the life of seamen of that era. Compulsory reading of the "Hornblower" series of books should be required of anyone involved in creating this game.

Again, I ask for the restoration of the no mutinies cheat for those that do not like irrational and unrealistic gimmicks in a game. Keep your East India license since it is factual, but not for stopping mutinies... for establishing credibility dealing with merchants in the Caribbean and Britain.

So, tell me why I'm wrong?

 

[Grey Roger]

You talk of naval discipline. And you are right. That is why, if you play as a naval officer such as Horatio Hornblower, you won't have mutinies.

Merchants didn't have mutinies either because they weren't expecting to go into battles regularly, so the crew weren't being asked to fight and die so that the captain could get rich. That is why, if you have a merchant licence, you won't get mutinies when you amass over 1M - provided you act like a lawful merchant and not like a pirate.

But any pirate or privateer captain who didn't share the prize money with his crew would certainly face a mutiny! If any real pirate captains were that stupid, we probably haven't heard of them because they wouldn't have lived long.

Another reason you might get a mutiny is if the officer you put in command of the prize ship doesn't like the way you run things. If your reputation is good ("Matey", "Dashing" or "Hero"), and his is evil ("Swindler", "Bloody Terror" or "Horror of the High Seas"), or vice versa, he'll try to turn the crew of his ship against you. So make sure to assign an officer whose outlook on life is the same as yours.

 

[CoastGuard71]

A letter of marque was a commission authorizing privately owned ships (known as privateers) to capture enemy ships.
A letter of marque was issued by the High Court of Admiralty. Any captured vessels were then brought before admiralty courts for condemnation and sale.
Privateers were viewed as heroic and noble as opposed to pirates, who had no letters of marque, and were universally condemned as thieves and vagabonds.
The earliest letter of marque was issued in 1293 and they continued to be issued in times of war until privateering was abolished in 1856.

Therefore:
I am a commissioned provisional officer of the British Royal Navy, hence the assignment of Naval Rank, as well as all other countries whose marque I hold... not a merchant... crews are under the Admiralty Laws of Wartime and mutiny is death when caught. Naval crews also do not demand payment from the captain who, at sea, represents the King with ultimate authority and power. As said, what would they do with it at sea, and it causes desertions in any port. This is the reality of the period and what is done is unrealistic and irritating. Make it a rule that anyone doing code in this game must first read the Hornblower series of novels, as Pieter has done, before attempting to make a simulation such as this.

BTW:
I hire as first mates only those with morality rates neutral and above so that is no excuse for crew mutinies as presented in this revision. In past
versions I have accumulated up to 5M GC without booty mutiny due to the presence of the cheat "No Loot Mutinies" a numpad key which has been removed in this latest version.... WHY? Put it back!

Please ask whoever did this to restore that cheat for those of us who do not want unrealistic GIMMICKS spoiling our game. This serves no purpose furthering the development of the game and, in fact, could be a reason of frustration to stop playing. This game is meant to be fun... not gimmicked to death and annoying to play. Here's a clever idea... make it player's option! YES?)

BTW Pirates were the first democracy, since the band of men... or gang... elected the Captain by vote. Written Articles (Constitution) were created by the gang (group) which covered the distribution of loot based on actions during the boarding, loss of limbs, injuries, etc. So, the ship was more like a corporation with strict regulations and remuneration rules so everyone shared according to their effort in gaining the loot. Challenges of the captain were made if he proved ineffective in gaining loot and rather than killing him they usually put him ashore on some island.

Yest another BTW: My ship is an HMS... Royal Naval Vessel under Admiralty Law... right?

Thanks GR, Steady on... oh come on... at least discuss this with me...

 

[CoastGuard71]

FYI:​

World History Encyclopedia​

In the poorly ventilated, cramped, and not always clean ships of the period, a sailor was far more likely to die from disease than a Spanish cannon shot. Indeed, casualties were often so high that a ship had to be abandoned for want of sufficient crew to sail it. The big attraction, of course, and the reason sailors faced the hazards of sea, disease, and warfare, was the possibility of acquiring loot. Sailors on privateering expeditions were permitted to take whatever they liked that was not from the cargo of a captured ship (that was divided between the captain, officers, and investors, with a tiny sum leftover then shared amongst the ordinary seamen). In reality, it was very difficult to control who grabbed what after a capture, and a quick handful of gold coins or even jewels would have ended a sailor's financial worries for the rest of their lives. Consequently, manning a privateering expedition was not as difficult as finding a crew for a naval vessel where there was no chance of booty. Indeed, so popular was the lure of treasure that there was often a shortage of crews for ordinary fishing vessels in English ports.

 

[CoastGuard71]

GR-
Got another game issue I need your knowledge to restore. My captives are not showing in the location they are supposed to be. I've about 9 captures that have disappeared instead of being where they are supposed to be... sounds like yet another game glitch. What module do I need to copy from a working game to drop in to fix this issue... only you know where all the little bits of code are hidden and I'd rather fix one module than reload the whole game over again.
Thanks for the life ring Mate

 

[CoastGuard71]

All posts about this discussion have been moved from the other thread to this thread as this is a more appropriate place. Please keep further posts about this discussion in this thread.

At the moment I would just risk repeating myself but I will add that it seems that most Build Mod developers aren't active anymore.

Of course I understand they've moved on to bigger and better things and abandoned what thy can't fix...quitters?(

I still like B14 better and would like to do what I can to salvage this very user friendly game, but with my handicap of not knowing C++ and not having the logic diagram for this build I have no recourse but to ask those who are willing to assist me in trouble shooting the issues that popup frequently. You are very competent and seem to enjoy the coding experience... me too. but here I'm out of my league and know it so that I must appeal to those who can make a difference.

While playing the June revision, a fresh full assembly, my captive Captains are not appearing in my brig. If I knew which module this is coded I would simply copy and drop in a working module... however the "logic roadmap" is not available and I must appeal to those who should or may know to direct me to the goal... any chance, even though you are no longer involved in the coding, you have an idea of which module is defective due to drop-outs in downloading? Or can ask someone who would surely know. I've already posted an appeal to GR for help with this and had the thought you might also have an idea since this must be one of the first modules created having been in every version I've played since v16. If you can I would appreciate the help... several days into this game and I've been trying several drop-ins with no luck. Hate to have to delete and rebuild from scratch... takes so damn long to do that, would be nice to find a simple fix... simple is always best.

Thanks Mate

Ron

BTW: Shouldn't the Mates doing the BNH B15 be aware of these issues and correct them in the new updated and more accurate revision? After all, these problems are not artifacts of the engine,,, coding errors most likely since no one can come up with an explanation.
Also: not asking for new coding just need to know where the code is for these existing issues so I can fix it myself... since none of these appeared in earlier versions.

 

[CoastGuard71]

Another game fault issues has repeated ... check it out... Phantom ships reappeared... is the game deteriorating as it's being played or is this another reason the developers ran away?

Anyone interested in solving this fascinating riddle of the "Phantom Ships"? Which module do I need to replace from a working game to get ships to appear... Hints anyone?

 

[CoastGuard71]

Guess I'm left in a lifeboat and will fend for myself... trial and error until the right module is dropped in time.

Thanks for the help Maties