why always the caribean?

[Thagarr]

Good ol' Fred Bob, the voice of reason! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" /> Nothing like a good discussion to get the blood boiling! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" />

 

[Pieter Boelen]

<!--quoteo(post=323427:date=May 28 2009, 11:46 PM:name=Sordid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sordid @ May 28 2009, 11:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323427"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well yes and no. Just skipping entire parts of the voyage might create problems, what if you decide to alter course? If you're just skipping time instantly then you have a problem. What I'd love to see is an interface fashioned like an actual historical nautical map, with your ship's route and current position marked, as well as that of other ships in visual range or those you know about. You could then accelerate time at will and watch the blips move, and pause whenever you wanted. An absolute must would be an auto-pause when anything noteworthy happens. I absolutely hate how in Akella games enemy ships come whizzing out of hyperspace and if you so much as blink they're right on top of you before you know it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->How about having a chart on your desk in the captain's cabin with some navigational tools.
And then you could draw your route on it and then apply time compression and you'd see yourself sail over it.

Personally I'd like it to be more realistic, so you see only your own ship's position on the chart
(taken every day, unless it's cloudy, in which case it'd switch to (inaccurate) dead reckoning).
If something noteworthy is spotted near the horizon, you'd be called by one of your officers.
You would be able to predict the coming of a storm by keeping an eye on the sky.
Of course you'd need then to go out of time compression and check on the ship's deck.

The above is what I would like though, and probably wouldn't work so well for regular gamers.
Being a real-life ship's officer (almost), I'd like the navigation to resemble real period life too. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />

 

[Sordid]

<!--quoteo(post=323683:date=May 30 2009, 12:22 PM:name=Pieter Boelen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pieter Boelen @ May 30 2009, 12:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about having a chart on your desk in the captain's cabin with some navigational tools.
And then you could draw your route on it and then apply time compression and you'd see yourself sail over it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is pretty much what I meant. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You would be able to predict the coming of a storm by keeping an eye on the sky.
Of course you'd need then to go out of time compression and check on the ship's deck.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah-uh, too much hassle there. Having to switch modes all the time is one of the biggest gripes I have with COAS. The interface needs to be way more streamlined and intuitive. How about being able to turn around and look out the window?

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The above is what I would like though, and probably wouldn't work so well for regular gamers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well again, I don't think many regular gamers play sailing games in the first place. I would personally love to have as much realism in them as possible. Akella come the closest but there's still a long way to go.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Looking out the window would work. I just don't like seeing ships and storms on the map. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/whippa.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="whippa.gif" />

 

[Sordid]

I'd say it'd be an acceptable break from reality for the sake of gameplay, but hey, just make it possible to turn off and there you go. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

 

[Stallion]

<!--quoteo(post=323646:date=May 29 2009, 06:35 PM:name=Thagarr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thagarr @ May 29 2009, 06:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323646"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good ol' Fred Bob, the voice of reason! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" /> Nothing like a good discussion to get the blood boiling! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Yep. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" />

 

[rabisyong]

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->quick question here - are you trying to get something started? I'm just wondering why, if you so dislike pirates, you're even a member on a pirate-themed forum? Seems to me most of your posts have been about refuting everything that's been said in this thread, and about things the game doesn't do right. You do know you could just quit playing the game, right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I know where your comming from, and I am on this board because i know of no other forums where people interested in sailing games are active. It is not that i dislike pirates, just that i would like to see some sailing games using real navies instead of always pirates. I am trying to get something started, an intrest in my idea, and the other side of a period more focused on glory and spectacular action then pirating.

As for refuting things the game does not do right, i feel obligated to. The devs really did not do enough research about sailing. Case in point, sailing with the wind right aft is a bad point of sailing for any ship, because relitivley few sails can be filled, yet in this and every other sailing game, ships go faster with the wind right aft. There are other things like that that need to change, in this or a future game, but they wont change if people dont know about it.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In your opinion mate. I am not questioning your knowledge of the period, I am questioning your understanding of pirates. I am well aware of how many men crew a Royal Navy Frigate, and what they were capable of, and you can damn well believe so were the pirates that sailed during that era. A lot of them had served in the Royal Navy. British frigates were indeed formidable, but they were not untouchable. Black Bart captured at least one British frigate during his pirate career. As was pointed out in a couple of early posts, pirates were not looking for fleet actions or head on confrontation with Royal Navy warships. They were after booty. To a pirate, speed was life, you needed a fast, maneuverable ship that was capable of being manned by as few crew as possible. What good is it to spy a fat, juicy prize on the horizon if you don't have the speed to overtake her? Lame to you is seen as a thing of beauty to others.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

But dont you think a game that did include fleet actions and actions between men-of-war would be good and worth doing?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Empire: Total War has fleet-to-fleet battles, doesn't it?

Personally I'd like a game where you can both join the navy and play that way, but ALSO play as a pirate.

 

[LordDrow]

Indeed, I myself would love to see a game like this actually provide for both Naval as well as pirate chars. It would be nice to have a real choice of what your career in the game will be.

Cap'n Drow

 

[Thagarr]

<!--quoteo(post=324088:date=May 31 2009, 01:30 PM:name=rabisyong)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rabisyong @ May 31 2009, 01:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=324088"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But dont you think a game that did include fleet actions and actions between men-of-war would be good and worth doing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I do indeed! It would be fantastic if a game could completely recreate massive battles like that in a highly detailed 3D environment. There were a couple of older games that did include scenarios like that, but they were just 2D, and not very high in graphic detail. But all the strategy was there. Sea Dogs was so close to being able to deliver both pirates and a naval carer. If Bethesda and Disney had not hijacked SD2, who knows for sure how it would ended up. The more I see from game developers though, the more I am convinced that to get the game we want, we will have to make it ourselves.

 

[Captain Monty]

A slight aside here - there was actually one Pirate game that featured various areas of Europe - "Corsairs" by Microids - a French company (it may have had a different name in the U.S. of course...).

It had various issues, but was a valiant attempt and definitely a "just one more go" type of game. I have a copy still but sadly it will not play under Windows XP - it gets as far as the options screens but crashes as soon as you attempt to start a scenario.

Love Pieter's idea further up - I always enjoyed the Atari ST version of Sid Meier's Pirates - which instead of just showing you where you were on a map had you take a "sun sight" to get an idea of your logitude (or maybe latitude since it was set before Chronometers were invented, I forget) after which you could check your estimated position on a printed map... Now that would be fun in a modern 3D game.

I too would like a Napoleonic sea based game as described above, I read every one of Patrick O'Brien's novels, - but will always hanker after the ultimate Pirate game (for me that would be Cutthroats redone for modern PCs with even greater levels of realism and less in the way of accountancy...) It is indeed all about freedom.

By the way, how come no one ever mentions the MMOG "World of Pirates" here ? (sorry - random, way off topic comment).

 

[Stallion]

<!--quoteo(post=324088:date=May 31 2009, 12:30 PM:name=rabisyong)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rabisyong @ May 31 2009, 12:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=324088"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know where your comming from, and I am on this board because i know of no other forums where people interested in sailing games are active. It is not that i dislike pirates, just that i would like to see some sailing games using real navies instead of always pirates. I am trying to get something started, an intrest in my idea, and the other side of a period more focused on glory and spectacular action then pirating.

As for refuting things the game does not do right, i feel obligated to. The devs really did not do enough research about sailing. Case in point, sailing with the wind right aft is a bad point of sailing for any ship, because relitivley few sails can be filled, yet in this and every other sailing game, ships go faster with the wind right aft. There are other things like that that need to change, in this or a future game, but they wont change if people dont know about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Ah, okay - guess I've been spending too much time of late on forums where people sign on purely to get a fight going amongst the members. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" /> Upon first glance, I thought you were one of those crazies. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blush.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="ops" border="0" alt="blush.gif" /> Sorry 'bout that. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="cheers.gif" /> Just seems rare nowadays to find some heated, yet constructive debates on a forum. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="yes.gif" /> On the other hand, this is PA, which is like no other forum on the 'net - heck, where else would you find a talking horse that can also type? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/w00t.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="w00t.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="24.gif" />

...now you know why I mostly lurk in the spam-only threads! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" />

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Taking sights to establish your position would certainly be fun as far as I'm concerned.
But I'm probably one of the few people who actually did that in real life, so I imagine not everybody would appreciate such a feature. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="dunno.gif" />
With the inclusion of the Hornblower quest in our PotC Build mod, we're trying to add in some navy affairs too.

 

[Thagarr]

If it was done correctly though Pieter, it could be a lot of fun and people may just actually learn something about navigation. One of the things that I have wanted to see in these games is more challenging puzzles like in the Monkey Island series. Maybe set it up so the first time you try to navigate, you have to preform a series of tasks that give you clues about exactly how to do it. Once people realized they had accomplished something they might find it fun to do as well. Of course there should be two types of sailing, an arcade mode and realistic as well. Maybe that could be a feature that could be turned on and off.

And your right Stallion, PA is definitely one of a kind! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/me.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="me.gif" />

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I wonder how you might make some arcade astronomical navigation. It might actually be handled in a somewhat gamey way.
What if you were given a sextant and then you have to literally aim and shoot stars. The more accurate your shooting, the better your position.
And after each star you sighted, you'd need to note the time of the sighting by pressing a "note time" button or actually typing it on a piece of digital paper.

You'd need to shoot at least three stars in a relatively short time and make sure they're spread out nicely around you.
And then there'd be the rocking of the ship and clouds in the sky to make things more complicated for you.
I suppose we might then have the subsequent calculations done automatically, since there's not much gamey stuff you can do with that.

Once you did the star sights a couple of times, you might leave it up to a capable officer, but then you'd have to trust in his abilities.
He would then do one every night, unless weather conditions prevent him from doing so.
You would always be able to do it yourself as well though to ensure better accuracy.

Of course for an actual star sight, you need to measure the vertical angle between the horizon and the star you're shooting.
As such, you need to have the horizon visible too, which is the reason why star sights are usually taken just before sunrise or just after sunset.
At that time, the horizon is bright enough to see, but you also see the stars.
In the middle of the night, unless the moon is very bright, you can't see the horizon very well.
Of course I took star sights in the middle of the night anyway. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />

 

[Marinx]

<!--quoteo(post=323196:date=May 28 2009, 07:29 AM:name=rabisyong)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rabisyong @ May 28 2009, 07:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323196"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why are sailing games always set in the caribean, with the character always a pirate or at best a privateer? Why has no one made a game where you play an post-captain in the Royal Navy, or the other major powers? You could start out as a lutenant or commander, in command of a sloop, then get promoted to post-captain and command frigates and 74's, then become an admiral and command fleets, mabey even get some nice titles, like Earl St. Vincent or Viscount Nelson. There you could have some real sea battles between men-of-war, not these pathetic pirate skirmishes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

There is one game I used to play a lot in 1997 on my 486. it's called "New horizons: uncharted waters". It was released in 1994 for DOS.

From wiki:

"Uncharted Waters: New Horizons


Known as Daikoukai Jidai II in Japan, this game is perhaps the most famous of the series. Even though an English version exists, it still has not managed to achieve the mainstream popularity Pirates! had. There is only a relatively small following outside of East Asia.

Also set in the 16th century, this game is a sequel to the first title and was released for SNES and Sega Genesis System in 1994. It was the last part of the series to be ported for PC. It also saw releases on Sega Saturn and PlayStation in Japan exclusively. The Super NES version recently appeared on Nintendo's Virtual Console in Japan on March 17, 2009 and in North America on April 6, 2009.[1]

In this game, there are six protagonists to choose from, each of them representing a different path or career featured in the game. They are listed as follows:

* João Franco: Son of Leon from the first game, a Portuguese explorer sent by his father to follow the family's footsteps and discover the secrets of the lost Atlantis continent.
* Catalina Erantzo: Former Spanish naval officer turned pirate, she avenges the loss of her brother and her fianceé and suspects that the Franco family is behind this scheme. She is loosely based upon the historical character of Catalina de Erauso, the Lieutenant Nun.
* Otto Baynes: English naval officer, a privateer sent by Henry VIII in a secret mission to defeat the Spanish Armada and prevent Spanish hegemony in the European continent.
* Ernst von Bohr: Dutch teacher and cartographer, he is set to make a journey to far lands and with this experience create a map of the entire world.
* Pietro Conti: Italian treasure hunter, he inherited a huge debt from his father and is set to travel for treasures and other secrets in order to cover the debt.
* Ali Vezas: Turkish merchant, he grew up as an orphan in extreme poverty. With the help of his friend, he decides to become a trade merchant and find his lost sister.

While the game is more or less open-ended, developing the character's career is necessary to advance the plot"

To me it is still the best game of that theme.

Here is link for <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncharted_Waters" target="_blank">wiki</a>

And link for <a href="http://www.unchartedwatersnewhorizons.com/" target="_blank">fan site</a> where you can download the game.

 

[LordDrow]

Marinx - Good call, that was a wonderful classic example of a great Eastern game brought to the west.

I've got copies of this game for both my SNES and PC. Great game!

Cap'n Drow

 

[Captain Monty]

Yep - also a New Horizons fan, only played the PC version though.

Those who want the "explore the world" thing might want to check out "Discovery Online" from Jango Game
( <a href="http://donline.jangogame.com" target="_blank">http://donline.jangogame.com</a> ), it's as close as you are going to get to a modern version of Uncharted Waters: New Horizons, unless you can speak Japanese and have a go at Uncharted Waters Online that is. I tried Discovery Online recently and was enjoying it but stopped playing when I installed the latest build mod <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> (incredible job by the way, I had no idea it had come on so much). It's free but features an in-game shop so wealthy players have something of an advantage. No complaints though, it's still free.

Totally agree with Pieter's further comments on real, or arcadey real navigation. Difficult to do in an instanced 3D game unless you take out the live map and have your "worked" position plotted on to a static map, and I am aware of the difficulties with acccurate positioning already in the game as part of the direct sail mod. It would work well in a top down type of sailing game though, perhaps with a view scaleable from close to the relevant ship up to its maximum viewable horizon - perhaps 10 miles... That would also allow the use of speeded up time for those who don't fancy sailing world distances in real time Sadly there is no such game, but it's a great idea.

Now if in the same fantasy game you could scale right down to directing Empire Total War type units in boarding actions (which Corsairs featured by the way - mentioned earlier) and also for cutting out and town raids (a la Cutthroats) then you're talking.

The older I get, the more childish I seem to be getting...

 

[wolfsrain]

Uncharted waters, now that brings back memories. Sadly the other titles in the series were never translated. I have a PSP and wanted, the remake of Uncharted waters 4, but that is only available in japanese...And the music for Uncharted Waters was done by Yokko Kanno, a composer well known in the ranks of the anime fans ( Macross Plus, Cowboy Bebop, Escaflowne are just a few examples )

 

[Youpime]

Thread resurrection !
As long time fan of the Silent Hunter series, i think it is possible to render acceptably detailed coasts, even with limited development resources, and on really huge maps. The Silent Hunter games model the coasts of the whole world, everything is very repetitive and generic, but it doesn't looks too bad. And that's the whole planet ! And on the whole planet, terrain elevation is realistic, vegetation is present and most of the major ports are detailed. By reducing the size of the map to a sea or an ocean, it should be possible to sensibly increase the level of detail of the map, still with a generic landscape. The area of the WoW map is around 700 km², which is absolutely not comparable to the size needed to set up a true seafaring game (atlantic ocean=82 400 000 km², with 111 866 km of coastline). I don't know what kind of hard drive you'd need if all that coast was not generically modeled, but it would certainly take a few years to load. The current map we play on in PotC is probably smaller than 1/10 of Cuba (110 000 km²), but all islands are modeled. With a highly detailed game like oblivion, the size suffers : the size of cyrodiil is 44km². Other extremes are possible too : with procedural generation, Infinity recreates an entire galaxy, with millions of interactive planets on wich it is possible to land. But of course, everything in the galaxy is completely random (procedural).
About the AI issues, in silent hunter and in pretty much any naval game, only the smallest ships (up to the destroyer size for WW2 games) are truly AI controlled. All bigger ships only follow waypoints placed in the mission editor. The only autonomous parts of their AI are the packages they use to evade torpedoes and avoid collisions. The problem is that in any STRATEGIC naval game, we would need all ships to react in real time. For example, sailing ships should stay in line formation 'till they get the opportunity ot recieve the order to "charge" and fire some raking broadsides... I mean, they should apply the real tactics of their era. Maybe that some naval RTS games have such ship AI, but anyway game devs CAN write that kind of code if they want to...