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What I would like to see in the new Builds

You are right. I was most of the time the "Horror of the Seas but Nathan advise me and it works. If you want go the my post "My experience with Build 12.1 with Modpack" which in this section a little below and in the end of it is Nathan´s good advise how to increase the reputation. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" />
 
Interesting site, Rad <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/onya.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":onya" border="0" alt="onya.gif" />
Especially the figures are revealing: She´s overall no longer than 70 metres, which is not <i>too</i> long, shorter, in fact, than I had thought.
 
I like this page very much. I think, it is worthy even read all about Victory there. Anybody can learn something interesting about this ship, what didn´t know yet. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hi.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":gday" border="0" alt="hi.gif" />
 
Hey, Grimm and others. Have a look at this. It is a historical photo of building of the fregate USS Constitution. Look, as the hull of this 44 gun ship is huge. Much bigger than have all the frigates in the game.

Something about Constitution.
U.S.S. Constitution was built in the years 1794 -1797 as 44 guns frigate. Her length was 77 meters, which was by 7 meters more then in the case of another British fregates and her breadth was by 1 meter larger too. For that reason she was very stable in the course of shooting. With her weight about 2200 tons she was by 25% heavier than her British rivals. Because of her big weight she had enormous surface of sales and her masts rised 56 meters above the sea level, so as she stayed very fast. Her sheathing had in some places 50 centimeters and was fasten on the beams the thickness of which was 18 centimeters and they were placed only 38 centimeters from one to another. For that reason there was something like a double sheathing with the thickness from 38 to 50 centimeters. From there her renowned solidity and endurance. The masts were produced from Engelmann´s spruce and could carry 4000 square meters of sails. For that reason Constitution was despite of her grand weight very fast ship and easily reached speed of 14 knots because of her enormous surface of sails and of the high effectiveness of waterline. Crew was 400 men.


Building of the Constitution
<img src="http://www.thelib.com/gallery/albums/userpics/U.S.S%20Constitution3.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
 
And once more site. In the section Famous ships is clearly stated Victory was Man of War first class flag ship and the biggest MOW ever was Spanish Man of War Santissima Trinidad with 136 guns. The last one is the very interesting exposition abour xebecs.

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/silverfleet.geo/Ships/index2.html?20055" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/silverfleet.geo/S...dex2.html?20055</a>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/silverfleet.geo/Ships/info3.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/silverfleet.geo/S...hips/info3.html</a>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/xebecinc/?20055" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/xebecinc/?20055</a>

This three links was provided to me by Hayreddin Barbarossa from LIB.

<img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hi.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":gday" border="0" alt="hi.gif" />
 
Yeah Santissima Trinidad, we have that model here, take a look at my post its name is "Holy Cow" read it you will see...we are trying to convert but no updates on that... <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/urgh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":urgh" border="0" alt="urgh.gif" />
 
I can´t find it. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />
 
Thanks alot for all these interesting informations and sites, Rad <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/onya.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":onya" border="0" alt="onya.gif" />

I wonder, though, how did they PHOTOGRAPH the building in 1797 ? <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":shrug" border="0" alt="dunno.gif" /> Also, the clothes look mid 19th century to me. Could that be a photo of some restauration work?
 
Charles, exactly the same question I put to myself. But some things are sure. It is USS Constitution and it is real historical photo. Maybe it is some reconstruction from 19th century, I don´t know. This isn´t explained in the source. I would like to know where the practical photography started working. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hi.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":gday" border="0" alt="hi.gif" />
 
<img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/w00t.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":woot" border="0" alt="w00t.gif" /> The first true photographic process or heliography was invented around 1824 by a Frenchman, Nicephore Niépce. Here's a nice photography timeline:

<a href="http://www.niepce.com/pagus/`pagus-inv`.html" target="_blank">http://www.niepce.com/pagus/`pagus-inv`.html</a>

There were some fairly decent photographs being produces by the mid 1800's.

Nonetheless, that is a really interesting photo! Thanks, Rad! <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/onya.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":onya" border="0" alt="onya.gif" />
 
Rad: Sorry about the delay, and also and more importantly my apologies regarding the Xebec. Don't you be apologizing about it, it's I who should be. I spoke most shortly and poorly towards you. :

Thank you for finding that stuff out; I read it with no less interest than you. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />


Regarding towns and ship classes. What I did, rather than making all towns use all classes, I simply commented out the two lines that check ship class and skip the ship if the class is not within the specified min and max.
At the bottom of ShipsShips.c, there is the function void FillShipsList(ref NPChar).
In it you will find the lines:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->  if (iClass > iClassMin) { continue; }

 if (iClass < iClassMax) { continue; }<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
Simply put // in front of each to disable the `class-based` skipping.

I did that to your files rather than setting maxclass to 1 to be sure that nothing would get in the way of all classes appearing.

Regarding MOWs tonnage. The game tonnage specified is just that--specified. It's just a number picked by Akella, it has, SFAIK, no connection to the model. What I meant was that Clutch did a volume calculation based on the MOW's dimensions (I assume by taking it as a portion of a cylinder), and found what amount of water that would displace, and thus the actual tonnage of the model.

I agree with you very much that the small ships are also extreme. Especially when the lomen on board are 2x as high as the cabin door...

Well, I'll be darned! I exported the MOW gm to OBJ and looked at the extents. The MOW's Z size is 96.5m, which is not so far from Victory's ~70m. Still a bit large, but not so bad. Ah, that's with Victory's bowsprit and none for the MOW; in fact Victory's gundeck length is ~57m, which is more of a change from 97.

So overlarge MOWs and oversmall small ships, and thus the oddness.

Regarding USS Constitution, I think you're right. IIRC circa 1880 (well, somewhere between 1870 and 1900, better said) she underwent a reconstruction. My recollection is that she was getting quite decayed, and there was a campaign to reconstruct her, which was helped when Oliver Wendell Holmes penned his Old Ironsides poem; memory also whispers that it was in large part the donations of schoolchildren (or parents through them) that paid for it.

What's confusing is that, a quarter century previously, USS Constellation also was "rebuilt"--actually, a built new, but Congress authorized only rebuilding, not new vessels, thus the subterfuge. (The original Constellation being a 36 and smaller sister of Constitution).

And lastly, to put the 36 in perspective, Constitution was only nominally a 44--say rather, a 54, and the firepower to rival a `third-rate` ship of the line because almost all her guns were overheavy. The epitome of a frigate, outrunning those few vessels she could not outfight.
She served until the mid 19th century IIRC--about the time they started using screw frigates--and her later armement was like the (new) Connie, far fewer but heavier guns.

But that's about the sum of my knowledge of her; I've forgotten most of what I once knew. :
 
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, I'll be darned! I exported the MOW gm to OBJ and looked at the extents. The MOW's Z size is 96.5m, which is not so far from Victory's ~70m. Still a bit large, but not so bad. Ah, that's with Victory's bowsprit and none for the MOW; in fact Victory's gundeck length is ~57m, which is more of a change from 97.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

How did you do that? And would it be possible to get then measures (lenght, height and width) for every ship model, so we can look up whether they´re correct or not? That would be some real nice info <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/onya.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":onya" border="0" alt="onya.gif" />
 
Hi, all. Nathan, thank you for you kind and wise words. As I can see anybody from us has a little truth about this matter. This issue is really more complicated than we are able to discuss in our a few sentences.
As I could convince myself Xebecs were real ships which had their origin in Mediterranean, probably in Italy town states and were took over by various countries. Spaniards often used them and those ships were very appreciated by corsairs and pirates from northern coast of Africa for their high speed and good armament. Because of their low hull which originated from galleys those ships weren´t too appropriate for sailing at open ocean but for Mediterranean were very convenient. But as I could read some xebecs (especially Spanish) was sailing across the ocean and reached Caribbean and operated there. For that reason I was mistaken in my konwledge but I always liked those ships. Their unusual design and stripped sails are very exotic and interesting for me and were always the freshing matter amongst all those galleons and frigates for me here.

What about dimesion of ships concerns. It is really interesting. I would like to know how large was for example the biggest Manowar the Santissima Trinidad. If you somehow mesured that the length is 96 meters, it is really a little too much, but I think it isn´t somehow substantial for the game. But my lay open when I am watching on human figure and MOWs they simply don´t seem to me so huge, so as their length would be about 96 meters. When I look at photos of Victory it seems to me that her dimensions are similar as our MOWs. But I think it isn´t substantial. But what about another ships concerns this is even much confusing. As we could observe some smaller ships are often too small here. And what about frigates concerns, while the Constitution had about 77 meters and there is stated the English frigates were by approximately by 7 meters shorter than American ones, in another material is written that some English rank and sort of frigates were smaller, about 50 meters of length. For example there existed the Leda class of frigates approved in 1794. They were 5 class ships and between 1800 -1847 Britons build 47 those Leda class frigates. For example at frigates Trincomalee the length of her hull was about 50 meters on the lower deck. See below.

<a href="http://www.`hms-trincomalee`.co.uk/" target="_blank">http://www.`hms-trincomalee`.co.uk/</a>

And similarly, for example some galleons were bigger that are in the game for example the galleon from 17th century Sovereign of the Seas or some Spanish galleons. But some of them were quite small as for example Golden Hind, between 25 - 30 meters. I think we will be reverting to this issue again and again. Maybe in the future someone who is good in this moddeling would be able to create some new great ships by using of some plans and exact historical datas of some famous ships and would make up them exactly as they really looked and in exact dimmensions. I would like to see the ships Sovereign of the Seas and Solei Royal. These two famous ship sailed one time on the high seas concurrently and as I read in the end The Solei Royal was defeated and sunk by Sovereign of the Seas. And the Dutchmen had really great ships too, highly decorated, especially in 17th century in the era of their famous admiral von Ruyter. I am sending here some website link which I like very much. There are historical paintings of various ships and naval themes. The descriptions of events on them are very detailed and suggestive. Please have a look at it if you want.

<a href="http://www.nmm.ac.uk/mag/pages/mnuExplore/BrowseByDate.cfm" target="_blank">http://www.nmm.ac.uk/mag/pages/mnuExplore/...rowseByDate.cfm</a>

Nathan, thanks for your hints. I try to write up them or print them for the future using. But my Manowar_gub still can´t be bought anywhere. I don´t know what happen here all the time. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hi.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":gday" border="0" alt="hi.gif" />

Hi, Grimm. You are right the overall length of Victory is 69 meters, at the gun deck 56,7 meters, which is stated at the website above. Shes wasn´t the biggest MOW of all, but probably the most famous of all. Nathan didn´t say here whether he meaned overall length or deck length or waterline length. And was his measuring exact enough? Maybe Nathan could explain more detailed here how he did it. Maybe I would do some my measurement for my curiousity. But I am afraid maybe it can´t be measured exactly at all here. Some dimmensions are a little screwed in the game for examples dimmensions of forts and towns, I think. Simply stated I somehow can´t believe that these our Manowars in the game has 96 meters in length when I compare them to the figures of people for example. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mybad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":facepalm" border="0" alt="mybad.gif" />
 
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How did you do that?  <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't know how Nathan did it, but you can do it yourself with the tool.
Load the gm into it and click the View/Details menu item. Somewhere in the treeview you should find the bounding box size.
 
Ah, I did it the long way--export to OBJ from the GM Viewer, load in 3D Exploration.
But your tool, as always, makes things easier. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/par-ty.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheers" border="0" alt="par-ty.gif" />
 
Well, I have a solution for you re: manowar_gub.
Sadly I still don't know why it's not _automatically_ appearing, but I can give you this code to put in your console to set your current ship type to manowar_gub (and thence give it to your officers via transfer->swap ships and press F12 again to get another one). See bottom.

Re: historical ships for POTC. I too would love to see that! Sadly we don't seem to have many (model)shipwrights around...that or they're just hard at work. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Re: Lengths. The length I gave is gundeck + the peak, i.e. the length overall _minus_ the bowsprit length. That's the length you'll get from looking at the extents of the ship GM.
If you want length overall, it gets a little tricky. What you need to do is:
1. Find maximum negative Z extent of the ship model, as Inez explains. Make it positive (i.e. -46 to 46). Note this is _not_ the bounding box in Z, but the _negative Z_ extent.
2. Find the Z coordinate of the mast1 locator in the ship GM (using Inez's tool; go to Data->locators, click show, find mast1, look at Z coord). Add that to the number you got in 1.
3. Open the ship's mast1.gm and look at the bounding box size, as Inez says. Add that number to the number you got from adding in 2.

There you go! The length overall.

Now, the code.
Open programconsole.c
Place this code directly above the LogIt() line at the bottom.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->    pchar.ship.type = "Manowar_gub";

    GetCharacterShipType(pchar);

    aref arship; makearef(arship, pchar.ship);

    DeleteAttribute(arship,"stats");

    SetRandomStatsToShip(arship, GetCharacterShipType(pchar), PIRATE);<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->

Replace PIRATE with whatever nation you prefer it to be from (ENGLAND, SPAIN, FRANCE, etc).

This will not only give you that ship, it will also `re-roll` the stats. After you hit F12, go to F2->Ships, and look at the stats. If you don't like them, hit F12 again and check again. Repeat as necessary.

Also, be sure that your current ship is a manowar, and your cargo is significantly less than max (because the stats you're rolling may mean less cargo capacity than you started with).
 
Thanks Nathan for your help. I urge this issue with the MOW_gub especially for the reason I thought nobody can buy it in current game. But if it is only some bug or discrepancy in my current game, so, I can tranquilly wait for my further installation. I hope the buying of MOW_gub will start working again. As I can see It´s probably only me which can´t buy this ship. Or am I wrong? What about in the case of another people? Could you ask anybody about that? If even in the next version of Build this ship wouldn´t appear it would pitty, I think. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hi.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":gday" border="0" alt="hi.gif" />

What do you plan for the next version ? Unification of B12.1 with Modpack into Build 13 or something another? Will be anything essential in the next version than it is in version 12.1 + Modpack ? <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mybad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":facepalm" border="0" alt="mybad.gif" />
 
I´d think for a B13 release we should get really big things, like directory reading, the new islands, the destroyable cannons and changing politics finished. As far as we´re now, a B12.2 would be in order, I´d say.
 
Oh my ..., destroyable cannons. As I know myself I think I will switch off this function. It´s not for me, such another restriction. Restriciton of ships, fires on the deck, shortgate of wheat, crew members, destroyable cannons. Game can change into nightmare. But never mind as Nathan said everyhting will be tweakable and this is what soothes me . So that before my staring new game I will be tweaking and ajusting for several days and then I will be able to play it. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/w00t.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":woot" border="0" alt="w00t.gif" /> <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="xD:" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" />

What is directory reading? I don´t know. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mybad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":facepalm" border="0" alt="mybad.gif" />
 
Did anyone talk about the USS Constitution? Check this out:
<img src="http://www.hangsim.com/vs/images/downshots/constit.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Best 3D ship model EVER! (from what I've seen, that is). But she has been, just as the Santissima Trinidad, built by a friend of me, Alan Winter in this case, and I've also had a lot of input in the building process, so I suppose I'm a bit biased. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheeky" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />
 
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