Included in Build Ship's Log: Add Additional Entries

[Jason]

Wow I have learned a lot about all this and maybe I can close this with two points.

I think what happened to cost me my LOM is I sailed in Port Royal flying a British flag. I was recognized and fired upon. I returned fire without changing the flag.

I bought a new LOM and my rank was restored. Yay!

Again I learned a lot from this. Not the leas of which is how rich in information the ships log is.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought it was only legal to sink a ship if you had a LoM and were flying the appropriate flag, so it was piracy if you are flying Personal flag when you fight a ship belonging to the LoM nation's enemy.

That would indeed be a bit TOO harsh. Thankfully that isn't the case though.

I've had a look through 'UpdateRMRelation' and have (I hope!) a better idea of how it works.

It seems to be impossible to be in service of a nation except by being professional navy or having a LoM.

True.

So would a French merchant sailor be in service of Personal?

The function technically would return UNKNOWN_NATION, which is another way of saying "not officially in the service of ANY nation".

For figuring out whether a fight is self defence or piracy, I'm trying to work out how to distinguish between someone who is playing, say, a French non-military character, flies a French flag routinely, and defends himself against an attacking British ship; versus someone who is playing, say, a Dutch non-military character, encounters a British ship, wants to attack it so hoists a French flag to provoke it into attacking him. The former would be self-defence, the latter would be piracy because the British ship was peaceful to the player until he provoked it.

Maybe a very simple one could be to check:
- If the ship belongs to a nation that is hostile to you personally
AND
- You are flying either your Served Nation OR your Personal flag

But of course that would end up covering almost EVERY conceivable situation. The only exceptions being:
- You are attacking a ship of a nation that isn't actually hostile to you at all (EVIL!!!)
- You were flying a still-hostile-but-not-your-own flag (whoever is going to do that?)

So the end result would be that effectively the whole "potential for piracy" system gets killed.
Which, to me, seems like a loss in functionality rather than an improvement.

I quite like the current system: If you don't get better (because you just escaped or didn't capture the ship), then it isn't an act of piracy and it is OK.
As soon as you gain an advantage, either because you could pick up the cargo of the ship you sank or because you captured that ship, then it IS piracy. Even so, it is only minor piracy.
The game is really quite forgiving in that respect and you need to keep up that behaviour for quite some time AND not compensate to actually notice any ill effects of that.

So for now, I stand by my original decision that it is quite fine as-is.

Eventually, once I rewrite it to check the disadvantaged party, I want to take @Flannery's suggestion so that all the nation relation effects are SKIPPED if you kill all survivors.
No survivors means no witnesses and no witnesses means no consequences.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

think what happened to cost me my LOM is I sailed in Port Royal flying a British flag. I was recognized and fired upon. I returned fire without changing the flag.

Ah, that indeed may not help. That being said, that still isn't considered a bad thing UNLESS you capture/sink a ship in that situation.
You should be getting an on-screen warning if you fire your cannons while flying a friendly flag though.

I bought a new LOM and my rank was restored. Yay!

At least that part is working correctly then. Thanks for confirming.
You should now also no longer be considered a Pirate.

Again I learned a lot from this. Not the leas of which is how rich in information the ships log is.

Not rich enough for my liking. We still need more!

 

[Flannery]

I normally play a coverted Pirate/Privateer in the shape of a legal merchant and my prefered way of piracy to avoid trouble is to stalk patrols and fleets of friendly nations while doing merchant assignments.

Then when the friendly patrol/navy encounter a enemy and battle is started, me and my crew fire up the grill and open a keg of rum, lean back, throw our feet up on the rails and watch the fireworks

Then we wait til the surviving fleet/patrol leaves the area, hoist the flags and prey on the surrendered ships left defenceless behind.... *evil grin* ....

Then switch flags and sail off with our spoils and a extra ship or two to either use or sell....

 

[Jason]

Ah, that indeed may not help. That being said, that still isn't considered a bad thing UNLESS you capture/sink a ship in that situation.
You should be getting an on-screen warning if you fire your cannons while flying a friendly flag though.


At least that part is working correctly then. Thanks for confirming.
You should now also no longer be considered a Pirate.


Not rich enough for my liking. We still need more!

Well, I don't think the log reports the capture of towns so that might be something to add.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Indeed it doesn't.
Did you do any town capturing in your play through?
If indeed you captured Jamaica while under an English flag, I think that would be the explanation I've been looking for.

 

[Flannery]

I do apologise as my post was MOST random and pretty much had NOTHING to do with the OP

Carry on...

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I do apologise as my post was MOST random and pretty much had NOTHING to do with the OP

Still interesting though.

 

[Jason]

Indeed it doesn't.
Did you do any town capturing in your play through?
If indeed you captured Jamaica while under an English flag, I think that would be the explanation I've been looking for.

I did capture Jamica and when the shooting started I was flying the English flag. I think I switched it. I have subsequently taken Bridgetown with a French Flag flying.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I did capture Jamica and when the shooting started I was flying the English flag. I think I switched it. I have subsequently taken Bridgetown with a French Flag flying.

It might indeed have been the Jamaica capture then; that would completely explain it.
Completing an attack under a friendly flag is considered really quite piratey, so you'd even lose your LoM with France.
Still... since they did like you, with a bit of money you could make them forget about it again.

I'll make sure to add some extra Ship's Log entries for stuff like this, so that if it happens again, we'll have actual evidence.

 

[Jason]

That is great Pieter. While you are dealing with log entries and the like, is there anyway taking a town could impact your promotion like sinking a ship.?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

That is great Pieter. While you are dealing with log entries and the like, is there anyway taking a town could impact your promotion like sinking a ship.?

I'm pretty sure it already does. You should gain PLENTY points for that.

Just not if you do it under a friendly flag to that town.
As you noticed, that is considered a nasty act of piracy and would cause you to lose your LoM.
And if you don't have a LoM anymore, you also can't gain any points.

If you like to do some pirating, you might consider officially JOINING the pirates.
You'll get points with them then too.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

I normally play a coverted Pirate/Privateer in the shape of a legal merchant and my prefered way of piracy to avoid trouble is to stalk patrols and fleets of friendly nations while doing merchant assignments.

Then when the friendly patrol/navy encounter a enemy and battle is started, me and my crew fire up the grill and open a keg of rum, lean back, throw our feet up on the rails and watch the fireworks

Then we wait til the surviving fleet/patrol leaves the area, hoist the flags and prey on the surrendered ships left defenceless behind.... *evil grin* ....

Then switch flags and sail off with our spoils and a extra ship or two to either use or sell....

That is a well known and well used method to gain wealth. I learned of it many years ago and it is a really good way to get a very good ship early in the game.

 

[Black Bart]

That is a well known and well used method to gain wealth. I learned of it many years ago and it is a really good way to get a very good ship early in the game.

That sounds like a bit of an exploit though doesn't it? Shouldn't any surrendered ships 'belong' to the nations (ships) that they surrendered too? So in effect become their property after the hostilities are over? I think it would have been deemed an act of Piracy to 'steal' these ships in those situations at the time (obviously not a problem if you were an actual pirate!).

..........
Eventually, once I rewrite it to check the disadvantaged party, I want to take @Flannery's suggestion so that all the nation relation effects are SKIPPED if you kill all survivors.
No survivors means no witnesses and no witnesses means no consequences.

There are always survivors though, what about your crew when they are on shore-leave, or no longer in your service? Their should always be a small chance (1-5%?) your actions may be discovered?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

That sounds like a bit of an exploit though doesn't it? Shouldn't any surrendered ships 'belong' to the nations (ships) that they surrendered too? So in effect become their property after the hostilities are over? I think it would have been deemed an act of Piracy to 'steal' these ships in those situations at the time (obviously not a problem if you were an actual pirate!).

There is indeed a mechanism of "surrendering TO a certain nation", but I don't think it works quite right.
Also, it is based purely on who was flying a flag hostile to them at the time. If ever I get the chance, I should have a look into it and see what it does.

There are always survivors though, what about your crew when they are on shore-leave, or no longer in your service? Their should always be a small chance (1-5%?) your actions may be discovered?

Once the logic in place, it is easy enough to add random chances like that later to make it more "fuzzy".

 

[Hylie Pistof]

So we sails up to the surrendered ship all peaceful and such and then change the flag to a hostile one. Board and capture the ship and quickly sail away before anyone can do anything. And if we use the flag of the victorious ships they see us as friends helping them out. The English were infamous for using false flags and it is a pleasure to return the favor.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

As far as I can tell, there is no actual bug in the above report. However, the Ship's Log didn't give enough comprehensive information to confirm that.

So I intend to add the following extra entries:
- When you get bad consequences due to item traders (looting/killing)
- When you get/lose a LoM
- When you capture or loot a town

Any others that need adding?

 

[Grey Roger]

There are always survivors though, what about your crew when they are on shore-leave, or no longer in your service? Their should always be a small chance (1-5%?) your actions may be discovered?

I agree. Whether it's the survivor you didn't spot clinging to a piece of driftwood; or the crewman who doesn't share your bloodlust, quits, and tells people why; or the crewmen who do share your bloodlust and brag about it after a few rums in the next tavern; there is likely to be evidence. I'd raise the chance to at least 10% - 20%. And have serious consequences for perpetrating massacres, starting with a major loss of reputation, and proceeding to becoming Public Enemy Number 1 when you can expect to encounter large naval squadrons specifically tasked with hunting you down. Exterminating survivors should be a high risk strategy - no consequences until the detection chance passes, major consequences when it does. One of the things a captured enemy can say is "Be prudent, <insert nation> will be sure to hunt you down" - if you get a reputation for extermination, make that happen!

And am I the only one uncomfortable with the idea of a game which encourages the player to commit atrocities?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

And am I the only one uncomfortable with the idea of a game which encourages the player to commit atrocities?

"Encourage" is a large word. I'd definitely NOT want to do that!

"No consequences" means also no GOOD consequences. So when you're in the Pirate Brotherhood, you'd gain zero points with them too.
Plus with my initial ideas for reputation, this also means that while you ARE being evil, you DON'T get the reputation for it.
And having a hugely bad reputation should then get you advantages. So by "killing all survivors", you'd be skipping that too.
Not necessarily a good thing at all. More a "completely pointless evil" thing to do.
But if you want to just get the ship and the money and maintain a low profile at the same time....?

Anyway, this is all yet to be determined. After Beta 4 has been released. I've got ideas aplenty, but (still!) need to hold off until that is done.
Also don't have the time I need to make it happen. So.... still purely hypothetical for now.

Plus, since all these situations don't yet exist in the game in any form, my first approach would be to make it all STUPIDLY SIMPLE.
With this quite literally being "stupid". But you've got to start somewhere. Once the simple approach serves it purpose, it is easy enough to build on it.
But I've explained that so very many times before.

This here is probably not the best place to brainstorm on it, because here all I want to know is:
What kind of extra Ship's Log entries would be considered important?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

As far as I can tell, there is no actual bug in the above report. However, the Ship's Log didn't give enough comprehensive information to confirm that.

So I intend to add the following extra entries:
- When you get bad consequences due to item traders (looting/killing)
- When you get/lose a LoM
- When you capture or loot a town

Any others that need adding?

As nobody mentioned any other extra entries to be added, the above mentioned ones will what I add this weekend.
After that, I consider this done.