Included in Build Ship Encounter Chances Correction

[Pieter Boelen]

It seems that the game likes to randomly apply upgrades for free to ships.
We should disable that for all ships except randomly encountered ones.

In PROGRAM\SEA_AI\AIFantom.c find:

int Fantom_GetShipType(int iClassMax, int iClassMin, string sShipType, int iNation) // NK
{
int iShips[2];		// was 512 - must be careful!!!!
SetArraySize(&iShips, SHIP_TYPES_QUANTITY*10); // new version of chance
int i, iShipsNum, iClass;
for(i = 0; i < SHIP_TYPES_QUANTITY*10; i++) iShips[i] = INVALID_SHIP_TYPE;
// NK -->
int shipnation = -1;
float NatSkipChance;
ref rShip;
if(iNation == PIRATE) { NatSkipChance = NOSKIP_CHANCE_WRONGNATION_PIRATE; }
else { NatSkipChance = NOSKIP_CHANCE_WRONGNATION; }
if(sShipType == "pirate")
{
if(PIRATES_USE_BOTH_TYPES) { sShipType = ""; }
else { sShipType = "war"; }
}
iShipsNum = 0;
// move class clamps things to Force_... 05-05-11
for (i=0; i<SHIP_TYPES_QUANTITY; i++)
{
rShip = GetShipByType(i); // why was this type object? 05-05-11
iClass = sti(rShip.Class);
if (iClass > iClassMin) { continue; }
if (iClass < iClassMax) { continue; }
if (sti(rShip.CanEncounter) != true) { continue; }
// KK: Periods -->
if (iNation >= 0 && iNation < NATIONS_QUANTITY) {
string sNation = GetNationNameByType(iNation);
if (sNation == "britain") {sNation = "england";} // Screwface : Fix for other nations type under English flag
if (CheckAttribute(rShip, sNation) == true && stf(rShip.(sNation)) < FRAND(1.0)) continue;
}
string sPeriod = GetCurrentPeriod();
if (CheckAttribute(rShip, "period."+sPeriod) && stf(rShip.period.(sPeriod)) < FRAND(1.0)) continue;
// KK: Periods <--
// new version of chance - old was if(CheckAttribute(rShip,"chance")) { if(frnd() > stf(rShip.chance)) { continue; } } // 04-09-10 will skip if chance not met
// NK mod so we can disregard shiptype if we want to: 04-09-04
// LDH --> new fix for missing sShipType 03Sep06
//		if(sShipType != "") { if (!sti(rShip.Type.(sShipType))) { continue; } }	// Original NK code
if(sShipType != "")
{
if (CheckAttribute(rShip, "Type."+sShipType))
{
if (!sti(rShip.Type.(sShipType))) continue;
}
else
{
trace("Fantom_GetShipType(): Ship " + rShip.id + " has no shiptype");
continue;
}
}
// LDH <--
// NK -->
if(CheckAttribute(rShip,"Nation") && iNation != -1)
{
shipnation = sti(rShip.Nation);
if(shipnation != iNation && frnd() > NatSkipChance) { continue; }
}
iShips[iShipsNum] = i;
iShipsNum++;
}
if (iShipsNum==0)
{
Trace("Can't find ship type '" + sShipType + "' with ClassMin = " + iClassMin + " and ClassMax = " + iClassMax);
return INVALID_SHIP_TYPE;
}
i = rand(iShipsNum-1);
while(i > 0 && iShips[i] == INVALID_SHIP_TYPE) i--;
return iShips[i];
}

Replace with:

int Fantom_GetShipType(int iClassMax, int iClassMin, string sShipType, int iNation) // NK
{
return GetShipIndex("FlyingDutchman");
}

This will make ALL ships encountered the Flying Dutchman. Replace with whatever ship you want to encounter.
This will make zero sense of course, especially when you encounter a French fleet of them.
But hey, you asked for it!

 

[Hylie Pistof]

Hmm. We did some sorting of which ships belonged in which time frame some months ago to fix some ctd. Here it is as a reference to put any changes in:


Early Explorers 1500-1599: Carrack and Caravel (caravol1 and caravel1)


The Spanish Main 1600-1679: Light Fluyt, Pinnace, Frigate (fleut4, pinnace1, frigate6)


Golden Age of Piracy 1680-1739: English Bark, Pinnace, Frigate (Barque4_47, pinnace1, frigate1)


Colonial Powers 1740-1769: Hannah, Pinnace, Frigate (Hannah_p1, pinnace1, frigate2)


Revolutions 1770-1789: Ketch, Schooner, Frigate (ketch, hooker1, corvette1_47)


The Corsican 1790-1830: Schooner, Indiaman, 40gun 5th rate (schooner4_50, fastmerchantman, lineship47)



As for the brigs, may I suggest dumping the snow brig? It has GA issues and the main mast can not be read, so it is not repairable.


Pieter: What is that mess for? :

 

[Legendary_Spider]

Pieter: What is that mess for? :

That's his answer to my earlier request. Thanks Pieter!

Yes, I know it will look weird, if I run into a fleet, but I'm bound to encounter a lone ship at some point.

 

[Legendary_Spider]

Is there any way to make it so I just encounter 1 ship?

 

[Black Bart]

This is just my opinion, but I think the Lugger is "too good" and for a reason.

When a player is first starting out with skills of 1 and a stock ship the other ships are too sluggish to be usable. A beginner doesn't have the skills yet to make a ship go at anywhere near its top speed and is easily run down by anyone that wants to. Start a game and get a different class 7 ship like the Trade Brig or Barque Longue and you will find yourself running into cliffs because it won't turn and averaging 2 knots at best.

Yeah i suspected as much. And that does mean you will never upgrade to any other ship in it's class, which is a shame. If upgrading other ships(like sloops) is a bad idea, what about down grading the Lugger's some? Just a little to see how it goes. I know with a Navigator of between 1-3 Sailing skill(and maybe Speed increase or StormHelm etc), the Lugger is very easy to handle, so the handling i'm good with, the speed could come down a knot or two maybe? OR the player gets to start in a Sloop(as in the voice acting of the opening 'Oxbay' movie) maybe? I'm looking for a reason to make the player want to upgrade their starting ships asap, without leaving them in a bathtub with popguns to defend against pirates!

Hmm actually i'm going to test that out(using the Sloop1 as the starting ship) and see how it changes things.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

Actually, upgrading to another class 7 ship ASAP is how I play. The Lugger has too small of a capacity to be very profitable and since it now takes so long to become a higher rated Captain, another larger class 7 ship is the way to go.

I like the barque longue quite a bit. That reminds me. I have not seen the Trade Brig ( Edinburgh & Bounty) for a while at all. Are they still in the Sea Hawk time line?

Take a look at this chart. It is already obsolete , but will give you a good overall idea of what is out there. Uh, you need something that can read .xls files like Microsoft office or what I use, Open Office 3.3.

 

[Armada]

I have not seen the Trade Brig ( Edinburgh & Bounty) for a while at all. Are they still in the Sea Hawk time line?

Nope. Last two periods only, as per historical accuracy.
You can see for yourself if you open Ships_init.c, search 'Edinburgh', and find this section:

//Period
refShip.period.0 = 0.0; //
refShip.period.1 = 0.0; //
refShip.period.2 = 0.0; //
refShip.period.3 = 0.0; //
refShip.period.4 = 0.9; //
refShip.period.5 = 1.0; //
//Nation
refShip.england = 0.5; //
refShip.france = 0.5; //
refShip.holland = 0.0; //
refShip.portugal = 0.0; //
refShip.pirate = 0.0; //
refShip.spain = 0.0; //
refShip.america = 0.4; //

A chance of 0.0 means it can't be encountered, and 1.0 means it will definitely be encountered at some point.
The sea Hawk storyline is Period 2.

 

[Black Bart]

Actually, upgrading to another class 7 ship ASAP is how I play. The Lugger has too small of a capacity to be very profitable and since it now takes so long to become a higher rated Captain, another larger class 7 ship is the way to go.
....................
Take a look at this chart. It is already obsolete , but will give you a good overall idea of what is out there. Uh, you need something that can read .xls files like Microsoft office or what I use, Open Office 3.3.

Thanks for that chart, i can see it coming in handy(and i can probably update a few things, like i notice in general prices for ships are reduced now etc). I'm only going on my 'bat sense' but in general i have no desire to upgrade from the Lugger to another class 7 ship(maybe a Ketch if any as it retains the same cargo capicity, has more cannon, more crew but is a little slower). I'll list the other class 7(non square riggers) below and give a quick summary vs the Lugger1:

Sloop1 = more expensive, slower, less cargo vs more crew, more+bigger guns, better HP(could be a good 'pirate' vessel bar the speed, so the Lugger will out run a Sloop quite comfortably)

Bermsloop163 = more expensive, less cargo, less cannon vs more crew, bigger guns, faster, better HP(definately a better 'pirate' vessel vs the trade aspect of Lugger1, but not used by pirates according to the xls file?) - the only issue with the bermuda sloop is that it's 'look' doesn't really fit as well as most of the boats in game(not to offend anyone here!), maybe it could do with some re-texturing or something like that? It also seems very large in game compared to it's actual stats? It needs some work on it anyway, and in principle should be a great pirate vessel.

Cutter1 = a lot more expensive, less cargo, slower vs more crew, bigger guns, better HP(a good 'pirate' vessel, but the lugger will outrun it)

Galeoth1 = a lot more expensive, less cargo, slower vs more crew, bigger guns, better HP(same as the sloop, just too slow to catch a Lugger)

Ketch = slightly more expensive, slightly slower than lugger vs more crew, more guns, more HP, same cargo(a really slight upgrade from the Lugger maybe, but with the same cargo probably not worth it?)

==========

In terms of pirate choices for encounters, only the BermSloop has the ability(and the Xebec) to be a threat to the starting Lugger simply down to the Luggers speed advantage.

As a starting ship, the stats on the current Lugger mean you don't really have a line of upgrade unless you go big and jump to another class, or go for the convoy(square-rig trade ships+patrol ships) approach. That line of game progression is slightly at odds with your general character+npc progression i find? Ideally for a starting ship you want the general worst ship in the game, and while i wouldn't want a Tartane if i could avoid it, i think we can maybe adjust the stats a little on the starting ship.

And on that note, my experiment with using Sloop1 as the starting ship didn't really sit right, and besides in the movie on escape from 'Oxbay' you are definately sailing the Lugger1 in the section that is voiced over by "...and only a lone sloop was seen sailing away to bring the news of the invasion to richmond..."(along those lines).

So my feeling is probably the Lugger1 is a good model to start out with, it certainly doesn't look as good as other Luggers in the game, so there is some incentive right away for upgrading.

I'm now half decided to create a smaller, less speedy Lugger1 for the starting ship, that will open up the other better looking and better stat Luggers as an upgrade path, as well as the ships i've listed above if you want to go the bigger crew and guns approach. I'm doing initial testing on this configuration in Ships_init.c:

refShip.Name = "Lugger1";
refShip.SName = "Lugger1";
refShip.id = refShip.Name;
refShip.Class = 7;
refShip.Cannon = CANNON_TYPE_LONG_LBS4;
refShip.MaxCaliber = 4;
refShip.Weight = Tonnes2CWT(100);//BB was 120
refShip.Capacity = 700;//BB was 1000
refShip.CannonsQuantity = 12;
refShip.MaxCrew = 24;
refShip.MinCrew = 5;
refShip.Price = 12000;
refShip.HP = 600;
refShip.SP = 200;
if (!bArcadeMode){
refShip.SpeedRate = 10.5;//BB was 12.0
refShip.TurnRate = 90;

[That is not all the text from this section, just edit the commented lines to test out if you want]

If many of the other re-textured Luggers use Lugger1 as a base it may be we can simply create a complete new starting Lugger?

The aim is to make other smaller(class 7) craft a desirable upgrade option, and reduce the starting Lugger simply being able to out-pace anyone other than the BermSloop(or most other ships upwind). Pirate encounters should become a bit more of a big deal. Now this is just a tweak test for the Lugger1, but that may have a small knock-on effect for the other luggers, and maybe a few others(i won't know for sure until i get out in the water vs them etc).

One immediate example i can think of was another Lugger, which had a really nice texture, but from the 3rd person sailing perspective, you could see this Lugger was a much wider hull shape and deeper and rounder across the girth, BUT had exactly the same stats as the Lugger1. Now this may be just that there are more model/skins than individual stats, so some are shared etc? But we should certainly not stop trying to improve ship balance where it makes sense.

Anyway the main aim is to try to make the NPC Pirate ships more of a concern during at sea encounters, as it is in the starting Lugger i simply leave them in my wake(unless it's a Xebec!).

 

[morgan terror]

but why do you want all pirates to be a problem? right now around half the pirates are trouble, and a new player has more than enough difficulty sailing around without getting himself killed already. giving the player a worse ship would mean that an inexperienced player wouldn't encounter anything weaker than him, so he wouldn't be able to take it on. i know an experienced player has no problems with taking on targets bigger than him, but i remember the Oiseau being a serious problem for me when sailing a lugger myself, back when i just started. and that was before the realism mods and new AI increased the difficulty.

point is, the player doesn't have to be at the very bottom of the food chain. that's just needlessly hard. if you want extra difficulty you can just select a smaller starting ship, which will be possible once the old sandbox mode has been modded back in.

 

[Legendary_Spider]

point is, the player doesn't have to be at the very bottom of the food chain. that's just needlessly hard.

Well spoken!

If you overwhelm inexperienced players when they first start out, they'll get frustrated and will lose interest and won't wanna play the game anymore because they keep dying. Give them a fighting chance. No one likes their ass kicked right out of the gate. lol

 

[Black Bart]

Lugger1:

refShip.Weight = Tonnes2CWT(100);//BB was 120
refShip.Capacity = 700;//BB was 1000
refShip.SpeedRate = 10.5;//BB was 12.0

that's all we're talking about guys, with the random ship improvements you often start with the starting 10.5 will be more, and still in the majority of pirate encounters which are square riggers you can simply sail upwind and escape(as per usual). it's not as big a deal as you are making out really

I've put more detail as to exactly why i'm testing this in my 'black barts tweaks' thread in the modding section. 'Boredom'(unless you go looking for action) at game start is the main reason. And keep in mind i am a new player to build 14! Build 12 was the last time i was regularily playing! And remember the build mod does change, all through it's life infact as we try to improve on it.

And just to clarify i'm not someone that likes games too hard, which is why i've decided to not play on Swashbuckler level out of choice. But challange is a good thing in a game, and currently with Lugger1(and all Luggers) as the near fastest ships on the sea, you reduce a large portion of that, and incentive to upgrade to other ships, the thrill/fear of encounters etc. All that detail is in the other post btw.

Edit: btw this does not effect Arcade game mode at all, just realistic game mode. If that puts your mind at ease.

 

[morgan terror]

if it's not such a big deal, then why do you want to change it in the first place?

you're still ignoring the problem that new players do not know that different ships sail best at different angles to the wind, and that being constantly killed would turn boredom into major annoyance. besides, the boredom factor depends entirely on the player now, in the sense of wether or not he chooses to get into trouble. with a weaker ship, he'd be forced to constantly get into trouble, which is definately something i'd find more irritating than less action. secondly, you're also forgetting that non-modders can't see the modding section, who are also players, who are exactly the kind of people who should be able to comment on changing the gameplay in the first place. thirdly, the lugger had the speed of 12 knots because it was historically accurate, which is not something which should be changed.

additionally, the difficulty level has exactly zero things to do with ship stats. it affects swordfighting. the fact that luggers are better than other class 7 ships is irrelevant, since there's another 6 classes to aim for.

 

[Black Bart]

I'm just testing it out Morgan, if i find it improves the game balance overall i'll let it be known(giving examples etc) and Pieter can decide wether to include it or not. If not no big deal, it will simply go into my Mod of the Build Mod

But seriously, you think small trade ships in the Caribbean were never afraid when they saw pirates on the horizon? Or actually decided wether to fight them or not!!

And i'd probably challange the speed of the Lugger vs Sloops as we have them in game, i can see they would be comparable just from the rigging and sail type, but there was a reason the Sloop was a favourite pirate vessel of the day, and i've not found too much evidence to definitively say a Lugger was a good 2knots faster than the Sloop

I know difficulty doesn't effect ships, but i was just saying i find Swashbuckler too hard to play under, the land combat is very frustrating when you die most the time. So i'm not looking to make the game harder. I'm aiming to make it better as you can always find things to improve.

And again if you play Arcade mode(as many new players will) it won't affect your ships at all. This is for realism mode only.

 

[morgan terror]

as the game is now, i have to adjust course if i want to outrun a pirate ship with a rig different from mine. it was no different back then.

the reason why sloops were preferred over luggers is that:
-they reguired less crew to man the rigging
-they were more manuevrable
-they were more fit for the job.

the reason why sloops were favored over luggers was actually because sloops were far more common. luggers were primarily used by the french coastguard and coastal smugglers. they were effectively designed to outrun pirate sloops.

but regarding why a lugger should be faster than a sloop, look again. a lugger has at least twice the canvas compared to a sloop, with about the same tonnage. the hull of a lugger, however, is wider for the sake of holding cargo, so that slows it down a bit, but the sail area more than compensates for the slightly fatter hull. it's still faster than the sloop. this isn't about historical evidence, it's basic ship construction.

isn't the effect twice as big in arcade mode? ships speeds are doubled, so the differences between speeds are as well.

 

[Black Bart]

as the game is now, i have to adjust course if i want to outrun a pirate ship with a rig different from mine. it was no different back then.

the reason why sloops were preferred over luggers is that:
-they reguired less crew to man the rigging
-they were more manuevrable
-they were more fit for the job.

the reason why sloops were favored over luggers was actually because sloops were far more common. luggers were primarily used by the french coastguard and coastal smugglers. they were effectively designed to outrun pirate sloops.

Just as a quick comparison, but the way i've pretty much always understood the two types:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugger

They were primarily fishing boats, trawlers, or oyster-catchers(of which my old Oysterman was descended) - working boats. I'm sure some got adapted for other uses, but that was their basic design purpose.

The Sloop was less a working boat and more a fast transport, either for small cargo's or people, it also has quite a shallow draft, which is one of the reasons it is so agile. It also often had extra sail that could be used, either from bowsprit or spiniker etc, again it was built for speed as it's main attribute, as much as a fore&aft sail configuration could give anyway:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloop

but regarding why a lugger should be faster than a sloop, look again. a lugger has at least twice the canvas compared to a sloop, with about the same tonnage. the hull of a lugger, however, is wider for the sake of holding cargo, so that slows it down a bit, but the sail area more than compensates for the slightly fatter hull. it's still faster than the sloop. this isn't about historical evidence, it's basic ship construction.

I could look at reducing the Luggers upwind capabilities ve the Sloop maybe instead? The stat for the Lugger is currently 90, while the Sloop is 95(higher being better)?

isn't the effect twice as big in arcade mode? ships speeds are doubled, so the differences between speeds are as well.

No the values are seperate in the file, one for realism mode, one for arcade(luggers are 14.0 in arcade mode(but with much worse handling (50!! - why? novice players need an easier game surely? Unless maybe the quicker turning in Arcade mode cancels it out)). So whatever change i do(if adopted) will not effect those using Arcade mode.

 

[morgan terror]

if it's historically supported as you say, the stats could be changed. but there's still the matter of the effect on gameplay. maybe the player should indeed start off with a sloop instead, after the stats have been changed to your liking, but my opinion on the strength of the player's ship compared to other class 7 ships stays the same. giving the player a weaker vessel is really not a good idea.

6 lugsails are slightly harder to bring round than a gaff and jib, though that would mainly affect manuevrability, and not upwind performance. that's because of the sheer amount of sails the lugger has. concerning upwind performance, i don't know. i think a sloop would be slightly better. the source i have on the ships here says that luggers were primarily used by the people i already mentioned, though a single source is of course not too reliable. still, it shouldn't be completely discarded either.

 

[morgan terror]

i have been reading that article of yours, and it says that the lugger's rig is easier to handle than both a gaff and a square rig. (that's for individual sails, not all of them together) it doesn't say much about speed though, except for a short bit of text praising the efficiency of lugsails compared to a square rig.

 

[Black Bart]

yeah it is quite a nice article, never heard of 'the bermudian' before, got it bookmarked now though as it seems to be quite 'thorough'.

I've tested starting out in the Sloop, and it just didn't fit - too many guns, too much crew, and those are just figures i don't want to change as they seem fine. Makeing a slightly weaker starting Lugger feels much the better tack imho.

In terms of concerns for the starting player, in my current game my starting Lugger came in at 10.9(just for the varience equation - i had no starting improvements), and i haven't yet noticed much difference - the strength and direction of wind is still the bigest factor is sailing it compared to the previous stats. BUT having said that i know for sure, if i get a pirate encounter i am going to be looking real hard thorugh my eye-piece as i'm now much more in range of other 'good into wind' ship types. That so far feels like a good player experience, but maybe after my 10th time being sunk i'll change my mind ( so far so good).

It WAS getting a bit boring(as i outline in the 'tweaks' thread), and a shame that we have this amazing encounter at sea in direct sail feature, and mostly it couldn't effect the course of my game in any real way. The only time i got scared was being chased by a French fleet(i did the article over at MotB based on this), and recently when a pirate Xebec got very into trying to sink me. Out of about oh....100 or so seperate ship encounters so far that is pretty slim pickings imho? I shouldn't have to choose to engage 99% of the time, it should be a little more out of my control than that, that's all i'm thinking on this, and the experimentation will go forward to see what results at the end :nk

 

[morgan terror]

bermudian is a collective term, i think. it includes the bermuda sloop and some schooners as well.

i've been having way more trouble with pirates than you have, and that was enough for me. most of the time i just wanted to get to the next island without getting my ass kicked and having to start over. it was mainly the fault of high concentrations of xebecs. also, a new player still has no way of knowing that different ships have different handling. he WILL be beaten a lot because of this, if that truns out to be what decides between escaping or not. the high speed of the lugger gives the player some room for mistakes.

how's the cutter? it's got some pretty similar combat value, but a different rigging type.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

I'm a little late to this conversation.

The lugger is too fast and sails too well into the wind? The only time I sail it I don't have any way to measure speed and my skills are all 1, so everything is faster and turns much better. The only way I can escape is to shoot out their sails.

I would take those overall stats with a grain of salt. Some small ships are faster into the wind than they are with the wind. I have seen cutters going 14 knots into the wind. They can literally sail circles around the barque longue while it is traveling at its best point with the wind. In the short time I had one in my fleet we were chasing a snow brig with the wind. It was getting away from my fluyt (10.2knots theoretical top speed) when the cutter went shooting past like I was going the other way. It caught and engaged the brig and they demasted each other allowing me to catch up some time later to to deliver the coup de grace.

The Bermuda sloop is another very fast ship that goes into the wind well. It will lose its mast in every battle too.

All of the ships were worked over quite thoroughly in the Willemstad building trials, and the only ship I question is the xebec. That was a personal favorite of the one doing the work and was set up as a littoral combat ship.