Poll Renaming Blackjack

[Grey Roger]

One of the gambling games available in taverns (and in @Levis' new casino in Cartagena) is Blackjack.

Except that it isn't. Blackjack was first introduced in America during the Klondike Gold Rush of 1896, so it shouldn't exist in any period covered by PoTC. And our game has no bonus for getting an immediate 21, let alone specifically an ace of spades plus a jack of clubs or spades (a black jack, hence the name).

Vingt-Un would be a more correct name for the game during the times of PoTC, as well as being more correct for the actual gameplay. But perhaps players might not recognise it. Then again, school level French should tell them that Vingt-Un simply means Twenty-One, while serious fans of card games will probably recognise the name from various reference books on the subject.

Twenty-One would at least be more recognisable to players who don't know any French, though its use as a name for the game is relatively modern, and players who recognise Blackjack or Pontoon might still not recognise Twenty-One.

If the game is renamed to either Vingt-Un or Twenty-One, the Spanish translation will probably change it to Ventiuno. Indeed the first recorded mention of the game is in a Spanish dictionary of 1611, as well as featuring in a story by Miguel de Cervantes.

Any opinions? I haven't even begun to try renaming it in PoTC, and won't start unless people like the idea.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

"Twenty-One" is a pretty self-explanatory name; which seems like a good thing to me.

As an experiment, I'm also trying to ask your question outside the forum:
Facebook Groups

 

[Dat Scharger]

Vingt-Un, at least keep it historically accurate!

Though maybe include a small joke, like the dealer mentioning that it should be renamed, with Black Jack being one of his ideas, but he has no idea how it came to him.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Though maybe include a small joke, like the dealer mentioning that it should be renamed, with Black Jack being one of his ideas, but he has no idea how it came to him.

HA!
I like that!

In the meantime, I ran the poll on Facebook as well and got a pretty decent response rate:

"Leave it as Blackjack" includes votes by:
@Tempesta

"Rename it to Twenty-One" includes votes by:
@Levis
@Captain Maggee

"Rename it to Vingt-Un" includes votes by:
@Bartolomeu o Portugues

Funny to see how, going purely by numbers, the verdict is completely reversed between here on the forum and "out there in 'public' ".

 

[Levis]

Though maybe include a small joke, like the dealer mentioning that it should be renamed, with Black Jack being one of his ideas, but he has no idea how it came to him.

I now feel the urge to make some kind of sidequest from my newly made casino where you have to do something (haven't figured out what) which will have the dealer invent the game of blackjack. and from that time on you get a bonus if you get a real black jack (black jack and ace of spades).
Maybe have it involve Miguel de Cervantes in some way. If I read his wikipedia page there was a chance he was in spanish america aroud 1592-1595. That would put him in the right era of POTC, and taking a few liberies with the character in other time periods should be possible (it's not like we don't do that with some others too right ?). And he used to be a gambler, so having him be related to actually the game ingame being renamed from vingt-un to blackjack would be very funny and even educational .

And we have windmills in the game so if we do it, it should use the windmill in some way too!

Edit: just brainstorming here, but if the quest involves you to get something from a windmill or something like that you could have a dialog like

Cervantes: "How did you manage to aquire that?"
You: "I fought the windmill and won."

Have your character make this as a sarcastic comment. A lot of people wouldn't pick it up but some might pick it up and like the reference .

 

[Grey Roger]

@Pieter Boelen: Facebook polls don't count, only this poll here.

@Levis: Miguel de Cervantes was alive in our "Early Explorers" period and the early part of "Spanish Main", but dead and buried in later periods. On the other hand, he featured the game in a short story called "Rinconte y Cortadillo", the names of two crooks working in Seville who were proficient in cheating at the game; perhaps use those as names for a couple of quest characters? As for a windmill, you should find an easily accessible one in a piece of jungle between Santo Domingo and Boca de Yuman.

Meanwhile, I've been doing some experimenting to find out exactly what is needed to rename the game. None of this is in my update folder so nothing is decided for general release yet, but:

Several files needed to be changed because the way "Habitue_dialog.c" and "gamble.c" are structured, the displayed name of the game is also the basis for switches controlling the game code. The point is, now I know which files to change, it would be easy to change them to show "Twenty-One" instead of "Vingt-Un". But there was one complication. See the hyphen in "VINGT-UN" on the game table screen? That can't appear in the game at present. The game title on that screen uses "Menu font.tga.tx" which has no hyphen. So I added it, along with an entry in "fonts_euro.ini" to use it, and regardless of how the poll goes and the game is named, that at least is going into the update. (I also modified "Menu font rus.tga.tx" and "fonts_new.ini" for the benefit of our Russian friends.)

 

[Levis]

Meanwhile, I've been doing some experimenting to find out exactly what is needed to rename the game. None of this is in my update folder so nothing is decided for general release yet, but:
View attachment 38782 View attachment 38783
Several files needed to be changed because the way "Habitue_dialog.c" and "gamble.c" are structured, the displayed name of the game is also the basis for switches controlling the game code. The point is, now I know which files to change, it would be easy to change them to show "Twenty-One" instead of "Vingt-Un". But there was one complication. See the hyphen in "VINGT-UN" on the game table screen? That can't appear in the game at present. The game title on that screen uses "Menu font.tga.tx" which has no hyphen. So I added it, along with an entry in "fonts_euro.ini" to use it, and regardless of how the poll goes and the game is named, that at least is going into the update. (I also modified "Menu font rus.tga.tx" and "fonts_new.ini" for the benefit of our Russian friends.)

Please wait with updateing it to vingt-un.
I have some more fixes to the code of gambling. for example I now fixed that in the blackjack the first card of the dealer is face up (as it is suppost to be) and in poker it now also checks the high card value, and the AI is a bit better.
I hope to upload it all today, but the gamling code was quite a mess so cleaned it up a bit and adding some debug lines now with a switch so if other people go try to fix things later then it should be easier for them. Some function names are very deceptive .

Also found a bug where if you where trying to get the patrol schedule by gambling but then lost and went to another gambler to earn more money it would still show the patrol schedule in the bet. So fixed that too now.

 

[Levis]

[USER=21139]@Levis: Miguel de Cervantes was alive in our "Early Explorers" period and the early part of "Spanish Main", but dead and buried in later periods. On the other hand, he featured the game in a short story called "Rinconte y Cortadillo", the names of two crooks working in Seville who were proficient in cheating at the game; perhaps use those as names for a couple of quest characters? As for a windmill, you should find an easily accessible one in a piece of jungle between Santo Domingo and Boca de Yuman.
[/USER]

That sounds like an idea . Another quest involving gambling wouldn't be to bad I think. Especially if it let you play some games to solve the quest because this might get people closer to reaching the quest trigger for the girl lost in a bet. Imho that's the best hidden quest in the (base) game. I remember when I was trying to 100% the base game (without a guide) I tought I did everything but missed that quest.

 

[pedrwyth]

I have just posted elsewhere about many changes I have made to gamble.c too. I would like your file ASAP because otherwise I am wasting my time despite having flagged we were working on a gambler quest before you started this! I too have a trace line in every function and swapped around where things happen (for poker)

 

[Grey Roger]

Another quest involving gambling wouldn't be to bad I think. Especially if it let you play some games to solve the quest because this might get people closer to reaching the quest trigger for the girl lost in a bet.

The "Girl Won in a Card Game" quest (badly named, the original PoTC only had dice and I still normally play dice rather than cards ) is already a lot easier to trigger than it was in the stock game. You only need to play a couple of games and you don't even need to win them. If I remember correctly, in the stock game you had to defeat every gambler in the (much smaller) archipelago before you could trigger the quest.

I thought from post #5 that you already had an idea for a gambling quest. If so, I hope you go ahead with it - but preferably with Rinconte and Cortadillo rather than Miguel de Cervantes!

Please wait with updateing it to vingt-un.
...
I hope to upload it all today, but the gamling code was quite a mess so cleaned it up a bit and adding some debug lines now with a switch so if other people go try to fix things later then it should be easier for them. Some function names are very deceptive .

As for renaming the game, at present I still have the original files in my update folder - the screenshots were from my own development installation. I'll wait a while longer to see how the poll develops. But I know how to modify "gamble.c" to use a different name. Meanwhile, please hold off on exposing the dealer's first card because that seems to be a rule unique to blackjack, and the poll is currently against keeping that name. (I'm also rather wary about "cleaning up" code that works but looks messy - there have been numerous problems caused in the past by such clean-up operations!)

 

[Levis]

I have just posted elsewhere about many changes I have made to gamble.c too. I would like your file ASAP because otherwise I am wasting my time despite having flagged we were working on a gambler quest before you started this! I too have a trace line in every function and swapped around where things happen (for poker)

I'll upload it tonight. If needed you can send your file and I will do the work of merging your changes in mine because you where first .

 

[pedrwyth]

I'll upload it tonight. If needed you can send your file and I will do the work of merging your changes in mine because you where first .

That's Ok, thanks for the offer but mine is still in development (although I have spent a fair bit of time evaluating how the poker performs and getting the dealer NOT to show you his cards when you want to increase your bet (it took ages to get the dealer with a pat 5 card hand for example to check he would show that when the result was known - previously my changes had him declaring such a hand but not showing it - definitely likely to cause offence in the tavern)) I have a number of things that I need to do that do not relate to "normal" play eg I have changed to using chips not money for the tournament plus need to track the number of hands played so far (because I conceptually set a limit so the contest does not drag on too long). I know what I am trying to achieve with these but have not finalised them yet.

I am interested in what you have done for the poker AI and presume your high card value gets rid of the "draw" on a "variegated".

I had changed the references to doubling to be within "blackjack" code, on which note I was confused why when doubling the turn automatically went to the dealer - you may still want/need to draw more cards (or even double again) if you have low values. I would suggest getting rid of the last three lines (from memory) of your double up function (as was) to allow this to happen - it seemed to work OK when I tried it. Of course that may be a variant of the game as I understand it (pontoon) but not in the one you know.

I also couldn't see why the high bet (with or without gamble perk) should wrap the set button round to low again - no-one is going to let you take your money back off the table once wagered?

 

[Levis]

That's Ok, thanks for the offer but mine is still in development (although I have spent a fair bit of time evaluating how the poker performs and getting the dealer NOT to show you his cards when you want to increase your bet (it took ages to get the dealer with a pat 5 card hand for example to check he would show that when the result was known - previously my changes had him declaring such a hand but not showing it - definitely likely to cause offence in the tavern)) I have a number of things that I need to do that do not relate to "normal" play eg I have changed to using chips not money for the tournament plus need to track the number of hands played so far (because I conceptually set a limit so the contest does not drag on too long). I know what I am trying to achieve with these but have not finalised them yet.

I am interested in what you have done for the poker AI and presume your high card value gets rid of the "draw" on a "variegated".

I had changed the references to doubling to be within "blackjack" code, on which note I was confused why when doubling the turn automatically went to the dealer - you may still want/need to draw more cards (or even double again) if you have low values. I would suggest getting rid of the last three lines (from memory) of your double up function (as was) to allow this to happen - it seemed to work OK when I tried it. Of course that may be a variant of the game as I understand it (pontoon) but not in the one you know.

I also couldn't see why the high bet (with or without gamble perk) should wrap the set button round to low again - no-one is going to let you take your money back off the table once wagered?

I posted it in the other topic. I think some of the questions about the dealer showing the hand are a lot easier to understand in my new version .
In official blackjack if you double up you are not allow to draw more cards. if you double up you get one more card and then it's the dealers turn, those are the rules.
Having the bet wrap around is for the first part, if you are still setting the bet, there is no option to lower it, so if you keep clicking it wraps around. During the game itself it's locked.
But a lot of these things are fixed in my version , I think the changes you want to make will be a lot easier in my version too. the version I now uploaded is WIP. I hope to have the good version tonight.

 

[Grey Roger]

As far as I can tell, in any version of twenty-one in which doubling is permitted, you can't draw any more cards, and indeed this is the case in the existing version of "gamble.c".

But according to both the general Wikipedia article on twenty-one and the specific article on blackjack, if the dealer and player have the same score then it's a tie and no money should change hands, whereas in both the original "gamble.c" and your new version, the dealer always wins ties. Also, if the player gets a natural 21 (ace plus any 10 or face card) and the dealer does not, the dealer should not try to draw up to a total of 21. A natural 21 is an auto-win unless both the dealer and the player were dealt a natural 21, in which case it's a tie. If I read the code correctly, ending the game immediately on a natural 21 can be implemented by changing these lines:

               if(sti(playerChar.cards.value)>=21) { bStop = false; bPlayerMove = true; bGambleMove = false; UpdateTable(); }
               if(sti(gambleChar.cards.value)==21) { bStop = false; bPlayerMove = false; bGambleMove = true; UpdateTable(); }

On both lines, change to 'bStop = true'.

Changing the end game to recognise a tie may be a little harder but should be possible.

 

[Levis]

As far as I can tell, in any version of twenty-one in which doubling is permitted, you can't draw any more cards, and indeed this is the case in the existing version of "gamble.c".

But according to both the general Wikipedia article on twenty-one and the specific article on blackjack, if the dealer and player have the same score then it's a tie and no money should change hands, whereas in both the original "gamble.c" and your new version, the dealer always wins ties. Also, if the player gets a natural 21 (ace plus any 10 or face card) and the dealer does not, the dealer should not try to draw up to a total of 21. A natural 21 is an auto-win unless both the dealer and the player were dealt a natural 21, in which case it's a tie. If I read the code correctly, ending the game immediately on a natural 21 can be implemented by changing these lines:

               if(sti(playerChar.cards.value)>=21) { bStop = false; bPlayerMove = true; bGambleMove = false; UpdateTable(); }
               if(sti(gambleChar.cards.value)==21) { bStop = false; bPlayerMove = false; bGambleMove = true; UpdateTable(); }

On both lines, change to 'bStop = true'.

Changing the end game to recognise a tie may be a little harder but should be possible.

I'll take a look at that. it was something which bugged me to a bit indeed.
I wasn't able to finish the code yesterday. Found some more spagethi code. In the blackjack code there where like 3 different places where it decided how things would proceed and there was an arbitrary value of 14, if your score was below 14 you couldn't pass on the turn. So did a lot of trimming and cleaning up there too (and found more small bugs).
I think that if you get 21 you should indeed instantly win. and I'm also for a tie. it would also give some descission for the dealer. if there is a tie he could decide to keep the tie or try to get another card with the risk of getting busted. That would mean that in the future I could try to make the AI there behave smarter based on the level or something like that.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

@Pieter Boelen: Facebook polls don't count, only this poll here.

I beg you effin' pardon???
That's 24 of our actual fans you're dismissing out of hand.
OK that is not!

Miguel de Cervantes was alive in our "Early Explorers" period and the early part of "Spanish Main", but dead and buried in later periods.

We don't need to let history rule us.
Creative license is allowed.

And we have windmills in the game so if we do it, it should use the windmill in some way too!

Edit: just brainstorming here, but if the quest involves you to get something from a windmill or something like that you could have a dialog like
Have your character make this as a sarcastic comment. A lot of people wouldn't pick it up but some might pick it up and like the reference .

Please do it! I like it already.

And Don Quixote should be preeetty universally known; no...?

I now feel the urge to make some kind of sidequest from my newly made casino where you have to do something (haven't figured out what) which will have the dealer invent the game of blackjack. and from that time on you get a bonus if you get a real black jack (black jack and ace of spades).

That could actually be a nice "intermediate solution" between renaming and not renaming.
It can be "Twenty One" at the start; but once you play a (fairly easy to find) sidequest, it turns into Blackjack.

but preferably with Rinconte and Cortadillo rather than Miguel de Cervantes!

I'd say: all three of 'em then.
References are more fun when people are most likely to actually catch them.

Found some more spagethi code.

Did somebody say spaghetti in a pirate context?

Spoiler

 

[Grey Roger]

OK, I've calmed down a bit. What I was originally going to write might very well have got me kicked off the forum.

I beg you effin' pardon???
That's 24 of our actual fans you're dismissing out of hand.
OK that is not!

Perhaps I should not have set a poll at all - other modders seem to work without asking for opinions, maybe I should do likewise.

Also:
We can see on Facebook who voted which way. We can not see who voted here. There are certainly some folks in the Facebook poll whom I recognise as members here. Should they then get two votes? Or should only one poll be counted? If it's the PA! poll which counts then I'm right to ignore the Facebook poll. If the Facebook poll is the one which counts then it could set a dangerous precedent:

I don't use Facebook and have no intention of ever doing so. I'm probably not alone. If Facebook is now to become the place for polls then those of us who do not use it are excluded, both from setting polls and from voting in them.

We don't need to let history rule us.
Creative license is allowed.

To a limited extent, otherwise what's the point of having distinct periods? Why have we gone to so much effort to try to make the game historically accurate?

That could actually be a nice "intermediate solution" between renaming and not renaming.
It can be "Twenty One" at the start; but once you play a (fairly easy to find) sidequest, it turns into Blackjack.

No it can't, partly because the poll here is currently in favour of Vingt-Un but mainly because it won't work in code. Both "Habitue_dialog.c" and "gamble.c" have switches based on the game name which is also used for the visible name, which is why I had to change them in my experimental renaming and will need to do so again when they've been finalised to include both the latest fixes and the new gambler quest. If "Twenty-One" changes to "Blackjack" part way through a game then the code breaks.

 

[Levis]

No it can't, partly because the poll here is currently in favour of Vingt-Un but mainly because it won't work in code. Both "Habitue_dialog.c" and "gamble.c" have switches based on the game name which is also used for the visible name, which is why I had to change them in my experimental renaming and will need to do so again when they've been finalised to include both the latest fixes and the new gambler quest. If "Twenty-One" changes to "Blackjack" part way through a game then the code breaks.

This is something we can fix .
I do like the idea of having it named Vingt-Un and having some kind of ingame event/quest which have the game be renamed to blackjack. But before that we might want to look into it a bit more. It concerns a aces of spades and a black jack card. I don't know where this comes from originally but it might be linked to something racist?

 

[Levis]

Perhaps I should not have set a poll at all - other modders seem to work without asking for opinions, maybe I should do likewise.

I do appreciate the poll and discussion .

 

[Grey Roger]

This is something we can fix .
I do like the idea of having it named Vingt-Un and having some kind of ingame event/quest which have the game be renamed to blackjack. But before that we might want to look into it a bit more. It concerns a aces of spades and a black jack card. I don't know where this comes from originally but it might be linked to something racist?

Looking again at the Wikipedia article on blackjack, it doesn't appear to have racist connotations, just a specific combination leading to a high bonus payout in the hope of attracting attention to the game. It may not even be true - the name "blackjack" also applies to the mineral zinc blende, which would tie into the game name's origin in the Klondike Gold Rush.

But the whole point of this is to eliminate the anachronistic name "blackjack". There's little point if it's going to appear again anyway, especially if doing so requires making the code more complex and potentially unreliable. (If there is a racist element, it may be the name "Black Jack", not the possibly apocryphal combination of cards needed to achieve it. So if that's a worry, it's another reason to get rid of the name. )