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Fixed Remove Rapists

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree here. To me, the defecting criminal is a matter of internal discipline in the gang. Why would I want to get involved?

@DeathDaisy: would you be willing to rewrite the dialog for the original scene? I put quite a bit of effort into sorting out the fight and now the woman only fights one attacker while the other two go for you. (Technical details: she no longer joins the player AI group. She and one enemy go into actor mode and fight each other. The other two enemies disregard them.)
 
Grey Roger said:
I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree here. To me, the defecting criminal is a matter of internal discipline in the gang. Why would I want to get involved?
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You get asked for help. You can choose whether to do so or not.
If you decide against it, then at least you don't need to feel bad for the exact reason you mention.
Right...?
 
Grey Roger said:
I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree here. To me, the defecting criminal is a matter of internal discipline in the gang. Why would I want to get involved?

@DeathDaisy: would you be willing to rewrite the dialog for the original scene? I put quite a bit of effort into sorting out the fight and now the woman only fights one attacker while the other two go for you. (Technical details: she no longer joins the player AI group. She and one enemy go into actor mode and fight each other. The other two enemies disregard them.)
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I left the option to refuse if the player feel that way. imo tho, wanting an honest life is a noble goal and helping a gang member go straight isnt just an internal affair, as the gangll surely not let them go just like that.. :ko its the premise for many a story

anyway, its pretty much a straight rewrite already, only the dialog and the girls model pool are changed. a former brigand is likely familiar with a sword, so your effort is def a large improvement either way :onya

I really think the defecting criminal is more interesting, but if its out of the question I can rewrite it closer to the original. Im not the one doing the archive after all, and its much better than leaving it as is. or make them into 2 separate enc perhaps?
 
Now that idea I do like - best of both worlds! I'll see if I can expand the Land Encounters system to accommodate another scenario, specifically the defecting criminal.

As for the original, I haven't done much to the dialog myself, but I do agree with something @DeathDaisy said earlier - the line about sharing a bed with such a hero is utterly stupid. This is what you might see instead:
rapists3.jpg
 
alright, so Ive rewritten the original dialog too to be more feisty and intense, and added a fair deal of shakespearean and other historical insults cuz those are hilarious xD I hope the new dialog looks alright!
 

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Hopefully the final version of the "Rapers" scenario:

Originally I tried putting the woman into the player's AI group. As she starts the encounter between you and the rapists, when the fight started all three went for her, making the fight stupid and easy - you could pick one, get at least one free hit and probably more, finish him off, then move onto the next.

After a few other attempts, I found that the method which worked best was to leave AI groups alone, put the woman and lead rapist into actor mode, and set them to attack each other with 'LAi_ActorAttack'. That worked fairly well, though if she finishes off her opponent before you've taken out the other two, she just stands there. And on one test run, after the fight was over, my officer started hitting the woman, who completely ignored this. That was enough to convince me to put in the skill check - the woman only fights if your "Fencing" skill is less than 3. That's fine, as the reason for putting the woman into the fight was to deny low level characters an excuse to refuse to help.

So, although it's been forced on me by necessity, all this adds up to a consistent character. The woman doesn't want to fight except in direst necessity, preferring to let a hardened fighter such as yourself take care of the killing. If you're not a hardened fighter ("Fencing" less than 3) then she takes on one enemy to help you.

That did mean I needed a couple of alternative dialog lines for when the woman does not fight. "Ha, we really showed those swine!" becomes "Ha, you really showed those swine!", and "One almost hopes we get to join swords again in the future" becomes "Though I am no killer, perhaps I shall learn from your brave example against such foulness". But only if she does not fight - if your skill is less than 3 and she joins in, then she uses @DeathDaisy's original lines.

Another change is more drastic and should be completely invisible. It appears that whoever wrote the original "Enc_RapersGirl_dialog" started off by copying "Enc_Raiders_dialog" and some of it is still there. Several dialog cases only seem to be referenced in the "Raiders" scenario. So I commented them all out and will probably remove them entirely, and overwrote some of the redundant text with the alternative dialog for the not-fighting woman.

Meanwhile, originally I'd disabled the option to refuse to help by commenting out a couple of lines in "Enc_Rapers_dialog.c". They're now removed. So is the entire quest case "LandEnc_RapersNoFight". (And then I had to put it back again, renamed, but that's a matter for the report about the defector scenario...)

The end result is that you can't refuse to help; if you're not up to the task of fighting three hostiles by yourself, the woman will help; and the woman's dialog uses @DeathDaisy's improved text.
 
It turned out to be fairly easy to add a new scenario. I copied and renamed the dialog files from "Rapists begone"; "Enc_Rapers_dialog" and "Enc_RapersGirl_dialog" are now "Enc_DefectorPursuer_dialog" and "Enc_Defector_dialog" respectively. The quest code is a straight copy of the code from the original, unmodified "Rapers" scenario, also renamed, e.g. case "LandEnc_RapersLogin" becomes case "LandEnc_DefectorLogin". It works, though at present it's nothing more than the original "Rapers" scenario with changed dialog. It might be nice to make the "Defector" scenario a bit more distinct. Therefore, @DeathDaisy, as this is your scenario, how would you like it to play out?

Battle: should the defector join in the fight? If so, should the defector fight only one enemy as in the modified rapist scenario, or try to take on the whole lot? In the latter case, an immortal defector makes the fight boringly easy, not to mention looks silly, but a non-immortal defector won't live long. One possibility which I haven't tried is to make the defector immortal for a limited time - this ought to be possible as something similar happens in the "Jack Sparrow" storyline, though it's the enemy who is immortal for a short time and there's a very good plot reason for it. The effect would be that you have time to get into the fight, but you'd better fight hard and aggressively if you want to save the defector's life. Or, any other suggestions?

If you help successfully, what should the reward be? At the moment, it's the same as the rapist scenario - random choice of a reputation increase or a small amount of money. Other possibilities could be the defector offering to join you as an officer, or maybe the defector stole an item and now gives it to you. Or think of something else.

If you choose not to help, what should happen? At present it's the same code as if you chose not to help the woman in the original rapist scenario, and as that was so offensive, presumably it's equally offensive here. What to do instead? Maybe have the pursuers attack and kill the defector? Or, having failed to get help, the defector surrenders and the whole lot walk off to a nearby exit? Or something else?

Give me some ideas about what you want to happen, and I'll see if I can make it happen.
 
awesome, rly great work! xD
Grey Roger said:
Battle: should the defector join in the fight? If so, should the defector fight only one enemy as in the modified rapist scenario, or try to take on the whole lot? In the latter case, an immortal defector makes the fight boringly easy, not to mention looks silly, but a non-immortal defector won't live long. One possibility which I haven't tried is to make the defector immortal for a limited time - this ought to be possible as something similar happens in the "Jack Sparrow" storyline, though it's the enemy who is immortal for a short time and there's a very good plot reason for it. The effect would be that you have time to get into the fight, but you'd better fight hard and aggressively if you want to save the defector's life. Or, any other suggestions?

If you help successfully, what should the reward be? At the moment, it's the same as the rapist scenario - random choice of a reputation increase or a small amount of money. Other possibilities could be the defector offering to join you as an officer, or maybe the defector stole an item and now gives it to you. Or think of something else.
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hmm, a tough one.. I rly like the idea of him offering to join as an officer! could one maybe scale him so that hes around or slightly above the pursuers level and/or give him some extra health, either permanently or just during the fight, to give him sum extra survivability? thatd probably make the former bandit a force to be reckoned with as an officer for a low-level player if they manage to save them, but on the other hand Fred Bob is a demigod no matter the players level, so maybe thats alright. for a high-level player theyd be a trash officer tho, so in that case maybe they could scale with the player.. and perhaps the bandits would too? thatd also make the enc more than a slight nuisance for higher levels. that or they could perhaps not offer to join if the player is very high level but would instead just offer something valuable that they had stolen but no longer want now that they wanna repent? that should probably be a random chance option anyway so you dont end up with an entourage of redeemed criminals over the campaign :p

Grey Roger said:
If you choose not to help, what should happen? At present it's the same code as if you chose not to help the woman in the original rapist scenario, and as that was so offensive, presumably it's equally offensive here. What to do instead? Maybe have the pursuers attack and kill the defector? Or, having failed to get help, the defector surrenders and the whole lot walk off to a nearby exit? Or something else?
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while not quite equally offensive imo, as rape overwhelmingly affect women and is heavily loaded with domination and degradation while general violence is awful but doesnt disproportionately target one group, thinking about it its def still very cruel and, to me, against the overall tone of the mod to have the helpless victim surrounded and beaten/tortured in the scene. how about if the victim keeps running for an exit and the other bandits draw their blades and pursue, either killing them before they escape or, if they fail, following them thru the exit, thus leaving the enc open-ended but probably fatal for the defector? or if the victim also draws his blade and attack by himself, most likely being killed. the surrender scene is also a good idea if you prefer that one :onya

srsly super thanks for the help xD
 
DeathDaisy said:
hmm, a tough one.. I rly like the idea of him offering to join as an officer! could one maybe scale him so that hes around or slightly above the pursuers level and/or give him some extra health, either permanently or just during the fight, to give him sum extra survivability? thatd probably make the former bandit a force to be reckoned with as an officer for a low-level player if they manage to save them, but on the other hand Fred Bob is a demigod no matter the players level, so maybe thats alright. for a high-level player theyd be a trash officer tho, so in that case maybe they could scale with the player.. and perhaps the bandits would too? thatd also make the enc more than a slight nuisance for higher levels. that or they could perhaps not offer to join if the player is very high level but would instead just offer something valuable that they had stolen but no longer want now that they wanna repent? that should probably be a random chance option anyway so you dont end up with an entourage of redeemed criminals over the campaign :p
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OK, I'll see if I can set up a random choice of recruitment or item. I don't know how HP and level are set up for these random encounters but I believe they're already scaled to the player's level - it's almost certainly the same system for highwaymen, random thugs, rapists and now criminals, and if it weren't scaled to the player's level then highwaymen would either be ridiculously hard to kill at the start of a game or ridiculously easy to kill later in the game.

You're unlikely to get many reformed criminals as officers anyway as this isn't a very common encounter type. :D

while not quite equally offensive imo, as rape overwhelmingly affect women and is heavily loaded with domination and degradation while general violence is awful but doesnt disproportionately target one group, thinking about it its def still very cruel and, to me, against the overall tone of the mod to have the helpless victim surrounded and beaten/tortured in the scene.
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My point was, that code is supposed to depict a rape, and if so, it's a rape, regardless of the scenario or the gender of the target. (Besides, having gone to a lot of effort to get rid of that code, and having been convinced that it's offensive, I'm rather keen to not have it back in again...)
how about if the victim keeps running for an exit and the other bandits draw their blades and pursue, either killing them before they escape or, if they fail, following them thru the exit, thus leaving the enc open-ended but probably fatal for the defector? or if the victim also draws his blade and attack by himself, most likely being killed. the surrender scene is also a good idea if you prefer that one :onya
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Your scenario, your choice - chase, fight or surrender?

I suspect that having the defector draw a sword and try to fight is going to be the hardest. 'LAi_ActorAttack' works well enough for a staged one-on-one fight but probably won't work so well for multiple-against-one - the defector is liable to kill one pursuer and then just stand there. Putting the defector into the player's AI group would work, but that would then turn the pursuers against you after you've said you don't want to get involved. Putting the defector into a different AI group from the pursuers but not in the player's AI group is liable to do weird things - it's been tried before. I have some idea of how I could arrange for the pursuers to attack the defector while the defector runs for the exit, and if the defector dies then the pursuers walk towards the exit. Having the whole lot walk to the exit as if the defector has surrendered shouldn't be too hard either. (What might work is to have the pursuers attack the defector, who tries to run away, with a check on the pursuers' HP. If any pursuer's HP goes down and the defector isn't fighting back then it has to be the player who did it, and that means the pursuers can become hostile to the player AI group while the defector joins you - effectively a second chance to intervene once you see what's going on.)
 
Grey Roger said:
OK, I'll see if I can set up a random choice of recruitment or item. I don't know how HP and level are set up for these random encounters but I believe they're already scaled to the player's level - it's almost certainly the same system for highwaymen, random thugs, rapists and now criminals, and if it weren't scaled to the player's level then highwaymen would either be ridiculously hard to kill at the start of a game or ridiculously easy to kill later in the game.

You're unlikely to get many reformed criminals as officers anyway as this isn't a very common encounter type. :D
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nice, thats no problem then :onya

Grey Roger said:
My point was, that code is supposed to depict a rape, and if so, it's a rape, regardless of the scenario or the gender of the target. (Besides, having gone to a lot of effort to get rid of that code, and having been convinced that it's offensive, I'm rather keen to not have it back in again...)
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aha thats very fair, youre right! sorry I misunderstood

Grey Roger said:
(What might work is to have the pursuers attack the defector, who tries to run away, with a check on the pursuers' HP. If any pursuer's HP goes down and the defector isn't fighting back then it has to be the player who did it, and that means the pursuers can become hostile to the player AI group while the defector joins you - effectively a second chance to intervene once you see what's going on.)
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this sounds really awesome if it isnt too much work xD
 
Grey Roger said:
Putting the defector into a different AI group from the pursuers but not in the player's AI group is liable to do weird things - it's been tried before.
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That is supposed to be the normal way of handling it, though.
But the AI groups system is massively messy, so it's not really surprising that it will act up eventually.
 
You want to know how badly messed up the AI system is? I still remember one playthrough of the "Assassin" storyline. Towards the end, there's a fight between an enemy crew and some Dutch soldiers. You're supposed to be friends with the Dutch soldiers, and you're both supposed to be fighting the enemy crew. And the battle seemed to have gone well enough.

Let's see if anyone can guess what happened after I left the battle scene and was in the first piece of jungle on the way back into town...
 
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