WIP Officer perk contributions

[Levis]

It would be nice with a couple of doctor style perks, like surgery and medicine. Improving the
things the doctor do already.

I was starting with that already with the potions things etc.
But perks should have a use also. And it hard to come up with good things for a doctor which would not be game breaking or OP

 

[Grey Roger]

The doctor isn't the problem. As I understand it, it's the first mate who needs to be given a new purpose. The perks currently given to him by @Levis' zip file fit well with his role as your executive officer and second in command - he's the one who organises landing parties and fireships, he's the one who checks that everything visible on the ship is consistent with your false flag, as well as having a hand in overall discipline (more by supervising junior officers, as opposed to the boatswain who deals with the basic crew, but the net effect is still covered by "Iron Will").

The point has been made before that the captain, i.e. the player, can't be a hero who does everything at once, he doesn't have the time and can't be everywhere. The first mate is why he can. The first mate's main job is to take some of the load. So, perhaps the player can only command a ship a level or two lower than would normally be permitted by his Leadership and Sailing skills, and that penalty is removed if you have a first mate. This should only apply to relatively large ships, maybe tier 3 or higher. Thus, at lower levels the first mate acts as a jack-of-all-trades with some of the basic perks from all officers, so he can fill in for anyone you don't yet have. At higher levels you can't efficiently command a large ship without a first mate to help you.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

The doctor isn't the problem. As I understand it, it's the first mate who needs to be given a new purpose.

Correct.

The point has been made before that the captain, i.e. the player, can't be a hero who does everything at once, he doesn't have the time and can't be everywhere. The first mate is why he can. The first mate's main job is to take some of the load. So, perhaps the player can only command a ship a level or two lower than would normally be permitted by his Leadership and Sailing skills, and that penalty is removed if you have a first mate. This should only apply to relatively large ships, maybe tier 3 or higher. Thus, at lower levels the first mate acts as a jack-of-all-trades with some of the basic perks from all officers, so he can fill in for anyone you don't yet have. At higher levels you can't efficiently command a large ship without a first mate to help you.

That's definitely a very interesting idea!
Certainly fits with my hope of somehow requiring more officers for larger ships, which seems to make sense to me.


WARNING! The below is a random idea and I am NOT suggesting it should be done.
However, what if....

ALL effective ship skills could be calculated as the TOTAL of all contributed skills divided by the reverse of the ship tier?
This instead of the current situation where only the HIGHEST number contributes and all officers with lower values basically contribute nothing at all.
That would have the following effects:
- Multiple low-level officers can do the job of one high-level officer (though for a higher combined salary, of course)
- Having multiple officers of the same type is not only worthwhile, it would be necessary
- Especially on larger ships, you would absolutely need a whole bunch of officers because you cannot possibly do it all by yourself

Of course what I described here is extremely simplistic and I don't think it would be balanced very well.
But maybe by limiting this effect to only large ships and using some non-linear logic, it might be made to work.

Or at the very least, this might be a fun thing to ponder for a bit and then subsequently ignore for the future because it is actually a TERRIBLE IDEA!

 

[Grey Roger]

I'm not sure that you should need more officers for large ships. The officer isn't doing much of the work himself, he's supervising crewmen who are doing the actual work. Also, beware of forcing the player up against the maximum number of passengers you can carry, bearing in mind that officers, prisoners and some sidequest NPC's count towards that maximum.

Plus, of course, this detracts from the idea of the first mate being your right-hand man, the one who means you can do everything as long as he's there to help you. And then we're back to trying to find a significant role for him.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I'm not sure that you should need more officers for large ships. The officer isn't doing much of the work himself, he's supervising crewmen who are doing the actual work.

True. But there is a limit to the number of crewmen you can supervise by yourself.
If I recall from the Hornblower books, all the Midshipmen were assigned to oversee a "section" of the cannon crew in battle.
So I imagine that working as if you've got multiple Gunners.

Also, beware of forcing the player up against the maximum number of passengers you can carry, bearing in mind that officers, prisoners and some sidequest NPC's count towards that maximum.

What is the maximum? If need be, can't we just increase that number? I can think of no reason why there should be a limit, really.

Plus, of course, this detracts from the idea of the first mate being your right-hand man, the one who means you can do everything as long as he's there to help you. And then we're back to trying to find a significant role for him.

If we're thinking of Leadership and you have a Tier 1 ship, then to have a high effective ship skill, you'd need several First Mates to help you contribute their Leadership.
So it most definitely would not make the First Mate useless again; quite the opposite!

It would certainly be strange to have multiple "First Mates" though. They can't all be "First", can they

 

[Grey Roger]

True. But there is a limit to the number of crewmen you can supervise by yourself.
If I recall from the Hornblower books, all the Midshipmen were assigned to oversee a "section" of the cannon crew in battle.
So I imagine that working as if you've got multiple Gunners.

Midshipmen were very junior, not particularly skilled, officers in training. If you do what I did to "Enc_Walker.c" to bypass the checks on who you can recruit, so that you can recruit random citizens, then you can get "Citizen" type officers, and they're your midshipmen. If you're using the normal "Enc_Walker.c" then you won't get these, in which case midshipmen are effectively just part of the crew hierarchy which also includes senior crewmen who aren't officers. Your gunner, for example, is then just the top man in the hierarchy of his department; the underlings are included in the crew.

What is the maximum? If need be, can't we just increase that number? I can think of no reason why there should be a limit, really.

I'd imagine some sort of array is declared to hold all the passengers and has to be a certain size, though that's just a guess. I've a vague memory that the maximum at the moment is 36, but I'm not sure. You'll know when you've reached it because if an enemy surrenders, you won't have the options to hire him as an officer or put him in the brig as you can't have any more passengers.

If we're thinking of Leadership and you have a Tier 1 ship, then to have a high effective ship skill, you'd need several First Mates to help you contribute their Leadership.
So it most definitely would not make the First Mate useless again; quite the opposite!

Boatswains also contribute Leadership, though not as much. Besides, this would also mean you need several navigators, who presumably compete in some way to decide which one is actually standing by the wheel.

It would certainly be strange to have multiple "First Mates" though. They can't all be "First", can they

On a warship they'd probably be your First, Second and Third Lieutenants. Which means whatever scheme you use, it shouldn't require more than three of any officer type even on the biggest ship.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Midshipmen were very junior, not particularly skilled, officers in training.

Yep, like myself when I was a Cadet. Still, they could even be given command of prize ships and they definitely have officer status.

I'd imagine some sort of array is declared to hold all the passengers and has to be a certain size, though that's just a guess. I've a vague memory that the maximum at the moment is 36, but I'm not sure. You'll know when you've reached it because if an enemy surrenders, you won't have the options to hire him as an officer or put him in the brig as you can't have any more passengers.

Should just be a bunch of attributes stating "I am an officer of this other guy".
I don't think there is a real array used.

Boatswains also contribute Leadership, though not as much.

Very true. That would make those half skill contributions actually useful, wouldn't it?
As it is now, if you have two officers of equal skills, one which contributes 100% and another who does 50%, then that 50% basically does no good.
But with my suggestion, that would count as well.

Besides, this would also mean you need several navigators, who presumably compete in some way to decide which one is actually standing by the wheel.

That's not what Navigators do!

The helmsmen stand by the helm; possible multiple while in a storm.
There would be an "officer of the watch" standing there though and there'd be only one of them in charge at the same time.
I'd assume there might be an assistant too, but only if that is a Midshipman/Cadet.
While on modern ships there can sometimes be a Senior and Junior officer on watch (oh, the memories!!!), I doubt that would be common practice back on the days.

The actual "Navigator" would probably be the Captain or First Mate and all that would mean is that he prepares the "voyage plan", e.g. the route to sail.
A Navigator would also check the position (using the stars while at sea, otherwise using bearings to known points on the shore) and order changes to the voyage plan as required,
for example if the ship had drifted away from the intended track.

Of course the game as it currently stands does not replicate this sort of logic very well at all.

On a warship they'd probably be your First, Second and Third Lieutenants. Which means whatever scheme you use, it shouldn't require more than three of any officer type even on the biggest ship.

Very much correct.

 

[Grey Roger]

Yep, like myself when I was a Cadet. Still, they could even be given command of prize ships and they definitely have officer status.

Which means, due to my customised "Enc_Walker.c", I'm getting midshipmen and nobody else is.

Should just be a bunch of attributes stating "I am an officer of this other guy".
I don't think there is a real array used.

It seems so. Digging around a bit, it seems that the number of passengers you have is stored in "ch.Fellows.Passengers.Quantity". When you add a passenger, function "AddPassenger" does various things with references and attributes, but only if you have less than PASSENGERS_MAX passengers already. And that's defined in "characters.h", currently set at 32.

That's not what Navigators do!

The helmsmen stand by the helm; possible multiple while in a storm.
There would be an "officer of the watch" standing there though and there'd be only one of them in charge at the same time.
I'd assume there might be an assistant too, but only if that is a Midshipman/Cadet.
While on modern ships there can sometimes be a Senior and Junior officer on watch (oh, the memories!!!), I doubt that would be common practice back on the days.

The actual "Navigator" would probably be the Captain or First Mate and all that would mean is that he prepares the "voyage plan", e.g. the route to sail.
A Navigator would also check the position (using the stars while at sea, otherwise using bearings to known points on the shore) and order changes to the voyage plan as required,
for example if the ship had drifted away from the intended track.

Of course the game as it currently stands does not replicate this sort of logic very well at all.

No, the navigator in the game contributes "Sailing" skill, which I believe affects how well you can steer the ship. Effectively he's at the wheel.

Maybe arrange that if your officers have sufficient "Sailing" skill between them, you get the same benefit as having the enhanced compass, chronometer and sextant, or whichever two of those does it, which is that you can see your position on the worldmap. That's about the only navigation and voyage-planning benefit I can think of for the navigator(s) to provide. Increase the first mate to 100% "Sailing" contribution if he's supposed to be your real navigator.

How about arranging so that anything up to tier 5 doesn't need more than one of any officer type. Tier 3 or tier 4 needs two. Tier 1 or tier 2 needs three. I'm mainly thinking of gunners; tier 3 and tier 4 ships are liable to have two gun decks, tier 1 and tier 2 may have three, and the gunnery officer can only be on one deck at a time. Unless you're planning on different requirements for different officer types, that nails down how many gunners you need, and by implication how many you need of anything else.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

No, the navigator in the game contributes "Sailing" skill, which I believe affects how well you can steer the ship. Effectively he's at the wheel.

In the game, yes.

I think effectively then that would be a "Sailing Master", e.g. a (petty?) officer who is in charge of trimming the sails properly.

Maybe arrange that if your officers have sufficient "Sailing" skill between them, you get the same benefit as having the enhanced compass, chronometer and sextant, or whichever two of those does it, which is that you can see your position on the worldmap. That's about the only navigation and voyage-planning benefit I can think of for the navigator(s) to provide.

Interesting idea!
But would those officers not NEED those items to do that job?

How about arranging so that anything up to tier 5 doesn't need more than one of any officer type. Tier 3 or tier 4 needs two. Tier 1 or tier 2 needs three. I'm mainly thinking of gunners; tier 3 and tier 4 ships are liable to have two gun decks, tier 1 and tier 2 may have three, and the gunnery officer can only be on one deck at a time. Unless you're planning on different requirements for different officer types, that nails down how many gunners you need, and by implication how many you need of anything else.

Indeed something like that is beginning to sound pretty good!

 

[Grey Roger]

In the game, yes.

I think effectively then that would be a "Sailing Master", e.g. a (petty?) officer who is in charge of trimming the sails properly.

You can rename the Navigator if you like. He'll be doing the same thing. A navigator by any other name would sail as well.

Interesting idea!
But would those officers not NEED those items to do that job?

No, because unlike you, they're specialised navigators. What you need fancy equipment to do, they can do by accurate dead reckoning.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

You can rename the Navigator if you like. He'll be doing the same thing. A navigator by any other name would sail as well.

I was indeed wondering if it would make sense to do that.

No, because unlike you, they're specialised navigators. What you need fancy equipment to do, they can do by accurate dead reckoning.

Seriously?

Dead reckoning is by far the least accurate method of navigation.
It is what you use when you don't have anything better available. Like a sextant and stars.

 

[Grey Roger]

Then presumably you always have some sort of basic sextant, otherwise how did you stay afloat long enough to make the money to afford the shiny one? The one you buy is a fancier type. The navigator, being a specialist, can get the same results using the basic type.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Then presumably you always have some sort of basic sextant, otherwise how did you stay afloat long enough to make the money to afford the shiny one?

You don't need a sextant to stay afloat. You need a sextant to know where you are when you're out of sight of land.

When in sight of land, a compass with sight bearings is much better. And even if you have nothing, you can still see which way to point your bow.

 

[Grey Roger]

The point remains, you must have some sort of basic navigational equipment otherwise you can't go anywhere. What you buy is fancier stuff to make it easier for you to get precise information. The specialised navigators can get the same information out of the basic equipment, which is why if they're good enough, you don't need the equipment.

Whether that would do you any good is another matter, bearing in mind that by the time they're that good you probably already have the fancy equipment...

 

[Pieter Boelen]

The point remains, you must have some sort of basic navigational equipment otherwise you can't go anywhere.

That point isn't quite correct though, which becomes quite apparent when play Iron Man Game Mode.

If you have no navigation equipment items, you literally don't know where North is and can only navigate by sight and, possibly, by using the direction that the sun rises/sets.
That is absolutely possible, but of course extremely inaccurate.

When you buy a compass, at least you know which way you're going. Only with a sextant and a chronometer can you tell your position even away from the land.

So by my reasoning, if you don't have the navigation equipment items, you literally have NO basic equipment at all.

 

[Grey Roger]

Oh well, never mind then. It was just a suggestion to make the navigator actually useful as a navigator. If he can't be useful unless you have the equipment which makes him redundant then he may as well be demoted to helmsman.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Oh well, never mind then. It was just a suggestion to make the navigator actually useful as a navigator. If he can't be useful unless you have the equipment which makes him redundant then he may as well be demoted to helmsman.

A navigator isn't useless even with the equipment.
Even though the captain (in this case, the player) could do it, he cannot do it together with everything else that needs doing, so he delegates these tasks.
That is why it was me doing all of that and not the captain.

 

[Tingyun]

Some interesting ideas in this thread!

I'd say some effect along the above lines of making the firstmate contribute to skills generally on larger ships makes a lot of sense.

There is still a seperate issue of the doctor magically deflecting cannonballs from the ship's hull--since people like him having the reduce crew damage effect, perhaps those two effects of the defense perk can be split, the crew damage reduction as a seperate perk from hull/sail damage, and the former remains with doctor. The latter can go to the carpenter, if the firstmste already has another valuable role.

 

[Grey Roger]

Having ship damage reduction perks assigned to the carpenter makes more sense anyway. Neither the surgeon nor the carpenter really prevent cannonballs from hitting the ship. The surgeon can patch up less serious injuries right away so that someone who just took a bunch of splinters in the arm but still has the arm can get back into action. The carpenter can do quick repairs and shoring up so that, for example, a hit below the waterline causing the ship to flood isn't leaking any more. The carpenter's first perk would also be the one which enables fires to be put out. And then it becomes worthwhile getting two carpenters so that one can concentrate on buying the current repair perks while the other concentrates on buying the damage control perks. Later on they'll probably both have all the perks, but by then you probably have a large enough ship that @Pieter Boelen's suggestion of needing more officers to command it efficiently comes into effect.

 

[Tingyun]

Complete agreement with @Grey Roger , splitting the defense perk effects will help both the doctor and the carpenter roles, and as long as the firstmate is taken care of by the other excelent ideas in this thread, every officer should be improved and useful.