WIP Improvements to Smuggling.

[DeathDaisy]

I think you answered your own question, Pieter.

It's been too long since I played so I don't remember how fast characters level up. I can't say if 5 and 8 are good numbers.

But I do think luck should be a factor. Hylie thought so too because he mentioned having a luck of 6 and still got caught. It may be impossible for a level 35 character to do any smuggling with the current code. Is this what was intended?

Hook

with a luck of 6 the chance of bad info is still 25%, which I suppose is a catastrophic risk at high levels when failure means you might well face a fleet of warships...

EDIT: I just remembered the smuggling perks go some way to help with the risk and reward, but not with the chance for bad info, maybe adding that to the perks are something to consider?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

That won't help - if anything, it makes the problem worse, as it means low level characters aren't exempt from meeting a fleet rather than a single ship, which they are at the moment.

That would be true if the code would say "&&", but currently it says "||".
That is another change that could be made though.

One other snag is that all coastguard ships are matched to a combination of your character level and your own ship. The idea is presumably that if you're in a big warship, the coastguard will send a big warship after you - there's not much point in them sending a sloop if you're in a battleship! But that means if you're in a battleship and your companions are in pinnaces, you may find yourself facing multiple battleships...

It's not a combination of rank and ship size.
Depending on your settings, it is either rank OR ship size.
As I said, it's the exact same function that generates the Governor Ship Hunting targets.

All of which is irrelevant if SMUGGLING_PERCENTAGE_BAD_INFO is set to 0.0 and if having good info means the coastguard

True.
I reckon that could be a good thing to try: set it to 0.0 and then try the whole thing.
That would need to be OK before proceeding further.

It's been too long since I played so I don't remember how fast characters level up. I can't say if 5 and 8 are good numbers.

You and me are in the same boat there. Haven't played on forever due to a perpetual lack of time.

But I do think luck should be a factor. Hylie thought so too because he mentioned having a luck of 6 and still got caught. It may be impossible for a level 35 character to do any smuggling with the current code. Is this what was intended?

I think luck does factor in there somewhere, but probably in the chance that you get good info on the Coast Guard schedule.
If you smuggle during their break, then you definitely do not get caught.
If you smuggle outside their break, then you definitely will be caught.
The timing is key, which is something you can influence as player.

with a luck of 6 the chance of bad info is still 25%, which I suppose is a catastrophic risk at high levels when failure means you might well face a fleet of warships...

EDIT: I just remembered the smuggling perks go some way to help with the risk and reward, but not with the chance for bad info, maybe adding that to the perks are something to consider?

@Levis, who originally made the new system, promised to look into it.
Maybe he can make use of your suggestions.

 

[LarryHookins]

I thought of something else. Consider that the random number generator is perverse and hates you. You have to take bold steps to keep it in line. Whatever you think the chance should be, cut it in half. Then cut it in half again.

If I were designing this from scratch, there would be an extremely low chance of getting caught. Maybe 10% at the worst. This is for an unlucky character at higher levels with bad information (or even no information), and even then there would be ways to improve your chances. Then, when the character gets complacent and gets caught, it can get catastrophic, sort of like what Hylie describes happens most of the time to him. I'd balance this by making smuggling be maybe twice as profitable as legitimate trading, but as rewards go up, so does risk.

If bad info means you always get caught, Hylie's getting caught at least 25% of the time. This is excessive. If this happens to every character over level 8, smuggling is not worth it no matter how lucrative.

Hook

 

[Grey Roger]

Not only that. From "smuggling.c":

void StartCoastGuardCheck()
{
   if(DEBUG_SMUGGLING>1) TraceAndLog("SMUGGLING Start event");
   SetEventHandler("CheckCoastGuard","CheckCoastGuard",1);
   float chance_get_caught = getCoastGuardEncounterChance();
   Characters[GetMaincharacterIndex()].postevent.CheckCoastGuard = true;
   PostEvent("CheckCoastGuard",5000,"f",chance_get_caught);
}

void CheckCoastGuard()
{
   ref PChar = GetMainCharacter();
   if(PChar.location == PChar.quest.contraband.CurrentPlace)
   {
       float chance_get_caught = GetEventData();
       if(Rand((100*SMUGGLING_TIME_CHANCE_MULT))<=chance_get_caught)
       {
           if(DEBUG_SMUGGLING>1) TraceAndLog("SMUGGLING Coastguard found you!");
           Lai_QuestDelay("Rand_ContrabandInterruption",1.0);
           StopCoastGuardCheck()
       }
       if(DEBUG_SMUGGLING>1) TraceAndLog("SMUGGLING caught chance is "+chance_get_caught+" in "+(100*SMUGGLING_TIME_CHANCE_MULT));
       if(DEBUG_SMUGGLING>1) TraceAndLog("SMUGGLING Evaded the Coastguard (for now)");
   }
   PostEvent("CheckCoastGuard",5000,"f",chance_get_caught);
}

If I read that right, it checks for the arrival of the coastguard based on the chance of getting caught, and then keeps checking every 5 seconds. Which means unless the chance of being caught is 0, sooner or later they're going to get you. That did indeed seem to be the case when I played at smuggling. If I got to the smugglers as fast as possible, concluded the dialog as quickly as possible, and then ran for the boat, I was not often caught. If I stayed around, the coastguard eventually turned up, which was very useful for testing their dialog but not so useful for smuggling in general.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

That also agrees with what I understand: if you are smuggling during the regular patrol times, you WILL get caught.
It is only during the break times that the chance should be zero and you'll be safe.

@LarryHookins makes a valid point, so lowering all the chance values seems like a good idea.
Definitely lower the "false information" chance so you'll be safer to smuggle even in the early game.
Then lower the 5-second chance as well so that even when you are badly timed, you have a chance of pulling through.

These should all be easy number tweaks and don't require massive changes to the system.
It's just a matter of balancing.

 

[DeathDaisy]

These should all be easy number tweaks and don't require massive changes to the system.
It's just a matter of balancing.

I agree, I think balancing is the biggest issue!

Something for the future maybe: I stumbled upon plans by @Levis for a charisma and some other charm perk in CharacterUtilite, maybe that's something for the bad info check? Could be fun for future persuasion checks in quests too!

 

[Hylie Pistof]

I only play the game "as delivered" so I get the same experience as the regular players.

I start at level 5 so by the time I save up enough money to buy a cargo for my tier 8 starter ship I'm probably at level 10-15 or more. Plus I might have an officer or two. But all of us will be low skill people with weak weapons and no armor going up against soldiers and battleships. It is not possible to survive.

Then why would a soldier give out information to a random sailor? It's more likely that he is talking to a government informer. It makes no sense. After capturing or killing me they would hang that soldier.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I only play the game "as delivered" so I get the same experience as the regular players.

Fair enough. But ideally the mod should be balanced based on the feedback of the players.
And it is easiest when it is a player who does the balancing.
Difficult to do that from a purely developer perspective.

Then why would a soldier give out information to a random sailor? It's more likely that he is talking to a government informer. It makes no sense. After capturing or killing me they would hang that soldier.

Just pretend the guy is drunk. He's hanging around a tavern, after all.

 

[DeathDaisy]

Then why would a soldier give out information to a random sailor? It's more likely that he is talking to a government informer. It makes no sense. After capturing or killing me they would hang that soldier.

while this is true, corruption and social engineering is sadly a fact of life in reality as well, despite dire consequences if found out.

For fun I added the charisma perks! Nowhere near implemented besides existing, but it was a fun exercise and maybe we can do something with them

 

[LarryHookins]

I only play the game "as delivered" so I get the same experience as the regular players.

Feel free to fix it. Then tell us what numbers you came up with.

Then why would a soldier give out information to a random sailor? It's more likely that he is talking to a government informer. It makes no sense. After capturing or killing me they would hang that soldier.

That soldier didn't hand you his copy of the schedule. You got him drinking and talking and he casually mentioned that he'd be busy without knowing he was giving you important info. "Want to get together tomorrow night?" "I can't, I'll be on duty." "Oh, too bad. When is a good time for you?" Do this once each with several soldiers and you'll eventually have their entire schedule and no one will know.

Then lower the 5-second chance as well so that even when you are badly timed, you have a chance of pulling through.

Instead of having a timer every 5 seconds, have a single timer for the amount of time you have before the patrol shows up. If this is impractical, raise the time to a minute as well as lowering the chance. If this is also impractical, decide how long the player should have before a patrol shows up, and set the chance according to that. We're talking somewhere in the 1% every 5 seconds range. Even 3% every 5 seconds will be too much.

I do like the idea of giving a player who is supposed to get caught due to bad information to have a time limit so that if he gets in and out fast enough he'll get away with the operation.

Hook

 

[Grey Roger]

I do like the idea of giving a player who is supposed to get caught due to bad information to have a time limit so that if he gets in and out fast enough he'll get away with the operation.

And indeed, that is exactly what I did.

I tried another short test game. Start set-up: nation Britain, character type Sailor, ship Lugger. So no LoM, no Merchant Licence, no particular boost to combat or trade, and a basic little tier 8 ship. After stocking up on food, rum, planks and sailcloth (probably overstocking - usually I start with something larger), I didn't have enough money to buy a cargo, so I took a cargo quest from the storekeeper, to deliver something to Pirate Settlement, Nevis.

Hint: if you're going to Pirate Settlement, fly a British or allied flag. Coastal traffic is based on the "smuggling nation", which is Britain for the whole island of Nevis. Sometimes you'll run into enemy raiders but more often than not, if you meet something near Pirate Settlement, it's British or allied. In my case it was several ships, a couple of them quite big - I don't know exactly what type, they weren't attacking me so I didn't care. After delivering the cargo, I had enough money to buy some cinnamon and sandal, then headed for Guadeloupe. Out in the open sea, well away from any fort, I switched to a false French flag.

At Guadeloupe I did the usual business with the smuggler and a drunk soldier, then went round to the beach and landed at the recommended time. The soldier's info was good; no coastguards appeared, and I made a nice profit. Back in town, I stocked up on silk and headed for Puerto Rico.

Puerto Rico is a particularly risky destination because the smugglers are part way up the path, so you're likely to be attacked by the bandits who live on that path as well as the coastguard if they turn up, which they did. Fortunately the bandits who weren't attacking me slowed the coastguard down, unfortunately not long enough. I had enough time to finish business with the smugglers, killed a couple of bandits, and ran away from the coastguards. Back to town, where I picked up some ebony.

The coastguard also showed up at Jamaica. But the smugglers there are closer to the beach. Knowing that the coastguard can show up if you wait too long, I'm in the habit of getting through the dialog as fast as possible and then running for the boat, so I was already halfway there when the guards appeared. So long, suckers!


So, three smuggling runs, coastguard soldiers appeared in two of them, coastguard ships never showed up at all, and this is my record sheet so far:


How I'd improve smuggling:
1: Get rid of the "Smuggler's Life for Me" sidequest. Or at least, separate it from the opium smuggling and maybe turn it into a tutorial quest similar to the ones for international relations and pirating.
2: A bit more variety in the tavern soldier's dialog. He's got to be wondering if I'm ever going to get lucky with the barmaid, and anyway that line doesn't work too well for a female smuggler. A random choice of lines could make it a bit more interesting.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

So, three smuggling runs, coastguard soldiers appeared in two of them, coastguard ships never showed up at all

Based on this, do you think any rebalancing on the numbers might be needed?

Get rid of the "Smuggler's Life for Me" sidequest. Or at least, separate it from the opium smuggling and maybe turn it into a tutorial quest similar to the ones for international relations and pirating.

Could you please remind me what that "sidequest" does again?
I know you always objected to that one, but I can't remember the specifics anymore.

A bit more variety in the tavern soldier's dialog. He's got to be wondering if I'm ever going to get lucky with the barmaid, and anyway that line doesn't work too well for a female smuggler. A random choice of lines could make it a bit more interesting.

Sounds like fun!

 

[Grey Roger]

Based on this, do you think any rebalancing on the numbers might be needed?

I don't know whether any rebalancing on the coastguard ships is needed because I didn't see any. Possibly alter the timing of the arrival of the coastguard soldiers so you have time enough to read through the smuggler's dialog, especially if English isn't your first language and you need a bit of time to make sense of it. Better yet, don't trigger the timer until you've finished the dialog. That way you can take as long as you like to read it. The real world justification would be that the coastguard is watching you and only comes to get you after you've done the deal. Otherwise for all they know, you might be an innocent visitor looking to bring his girlfriend for a picnic who just happened to wander into a crime scene.

Could you please remind me what that "sidequest" does again?
I know you always objected to that one, but I can't remember the specifics anymore.

It starts as soon as you have anything to do with smuggling. It has a couple of basic statements about smuggling, then most of the questbook is about the opium quest, which I don't want to touch for various reasons. As far as I can tell, the quest only closes after you've done the opium quest, and then only if you did it for a governor.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I don't know whether any rebalancing on the coastguard ships is needed because I didn't see any. Possibly alter the timing of the arrival of the coastguard soldiers so you have time enough to read through the smuggler's dialog, especially if English isn't your first language and you need a bit of time to make sense of it. Better yet, don't trigger the timer until you've finished the dialog. That way you can take as long as you like to read it. The real world justification would be that the coastguard is watching you and only comes to get you after you've done the deal. Otherwise for all they know, you might be an innocent visitor looking to bring his girlfriend for a picnic who just happened to wander into a crime scene.

Or maybe skip that "timer" thing while you are IN a dialog?
I once did something very similar to stop enemies from drawing their blade while you were talking.

It starts as soon as you have anything to do with smuggling. It has a couple of basic statements about smuggling, then most of the questbook is about the opium quest, which I don't want to touch for various reasons. As far as I can tell, the quest only closes after you've done the opium quest, and then only if you did it for a governor.

In that case, I have the following thoughts:
- Split the "Smuggling Tutorial" quest from the "Opium Quest"
- Have the "Tutorial" quest expire after a while and close itself/disappear
- Add some sort of indication for new players that the "Opium Quest" exists

 

[LarryHookins]

I'm reading good things here.

If you don't start the "5 second timer" until after the dialog is over, then the chances and timer duration don't matter much as you can get away easily enough. Probably a bit too easy.

Even if soldiers showed up while you were in the middle of the dialog, could you escape by running for the water? Is it possible for them to attack you if either of you is in the water? Except maybe with firearms.

As for ships showing up, maybe only one unless you have a squadron and have that based on a random number modified by your character level and luck, or just have the coast guard ship(s) spawned somewhere nearby if you are likely to be doing any smuggling, with several possible patrol paths. That way you can watch the coast guard and determine the best time to land. You know someone is likely to be doing some smuggling if he's got a hold full of contraband goods for that island.

Hook

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Is it possible for them to attack you if either of you is in the water? Except maybe with firearms.

While you're in "shore" mode, water is meaningless.
There's no such thing as "wet powder" in the game, so you can certainly have a fencing and shooting match while you're all standing in water.

 

[DeathDaisy]

He's got to be wondering if I'm ever going to get lucky with the barmaid, and anyway that line doesn't work too well for a female smuggler.

You'd think so, but what if we add

                string GoodLuck = DLG_TEXT[6];
                if(PChar.sex == "woman"){ GoodLuck = DLG_TEXT[43]; }
                Dialog.Text = GoodLuck +patroltime+DLG_TEXT[12];

where DLG_TEXT[43] is "Ah, that explains why I've never been able to get even a kiss from her. Good luck, lass. I suggest you go " Almost makes it more convincing!

But anyway, idea dump; it seems the officers use the same function and got the same chance of giving bad info as the guards, based solely on player luck. Wouldnt it be cool if it was based on the officers luck and skills? that would make it a more attractive option as you could pick an officer with a better chance than you of finding good info.

another probably harder to implement and possibly lousy idea is that maybe you could smack a guard with the sandbag and straight up steal the patrol book that would make sure you got the right time, but if you were seen you would have the town guard after you and perhaps lose nation relation.

finally, with the moonlight romance line, and future random lines, maybe there could be a persuasion check based on leadership (which I guess is closest to charisma?) or something? instead of just checking if you tumbled with the tavern maid that's a place for eventual charm perks too i guess

I'll maybe have a look at one or more of these, but figured I'd put them out there if someone more skilled want inspiration

 

[Pieter Boelen]

But anyway, idea dump; it seems the officers use the same function and got the same chance of giving bad info as the guards, based solely on player luck. Wouldnt it be cool if it was based on the officers luck and skills? that would make it a more attractive option as you could pick an officer with a better chance than you of finding good info.

I most definitely like that idea!

Not sure how easy it would be to implement that, but it does make sense.
Sending an officer has the risk of losing that officer. So that risk should be offset by an advantage of some kind too.

another probably harder to implement and possibly lousy idea is that maybe you could smack a guard with the sandbag and straight up steal the patrol book that would make sure you got the right time, but if you were seen you would have the town guard after you and perhaps lose nation relation.

You can pretty much do that after you're caught.
One of the guards then always has the Patrol Book, so if you survive them, you'll be better prepared next time.
That's one reason why "getting caught" isn't necessarily the worst thing in the world.

 

[Grey Roger]

But anyway, idea dump; it seems the officers use the same function and got the same chance of giving bad info as the guards, based solely on player luck. Wouldnt it be cool if it was based on the officers luck and skills? that would make it a more attractive option as you could pick an officer with a better chance than you of finding good info.

Personally I've no intention of risking an officer anyway. Especially not one with any worthwhile skills. (Though I've just thought of another strategy within the existing system. Find an officer for hire. If he wants less than 500 as initial payment, hire him and immediately send him to scout for information, because he's cheaper than bribing a soldier. If Mr. Expendable gets caught, who cares? )

another probably harder to implement and possibly lousy idea is that maybe you could smack a guard with the sandbag and straight up steal the patrol book that would make sure you got the right time, but if you were seen you would have the town guard after you and perhaps lose nation relation.

Just one more reason to only smuggle to hostile nations. That way you don't care about losing nation relations. But since the idea of trying to get the patrol book is to avoid having to fight soldiers then this is probably not a viable proposition because if you don't mind the risk of having to fight or run from the town guard then you shouldn't be worried about having to fight or run from the coastguard either... (Especially as the town guard are probably a lot tougher.)

Another thought, perhaps as an alternative for female characters instead of claiming you're trying to have fun with the barmaid: have you tried my "Kapitein of Kralendijk" sidequest? Early on, you invite a soldier to join you in the tavern room for a drinking session which ends with him on the floor and you stealing his uniform. Maybe copy and modify the code so you can do something similar, only you're after the patrol book instead...

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Personally I've no intention of risking an officer anyway. Especially not one with any worthwhile skills.

Fair point. Yet another reason why that should REALLY provide a benefit!

Though I've just thought of another strategy within the existing system. Find an officer for hire. If he wants less than 500 as initial payment, hire him and immediately send him to scout for information, because he's cheaper than bribing a soldier. If Mr. Expendable gets caught, who cares?

Just one more reason to only smuggle to hostile nations. That way you don't care about losing nation relations.

Fights on dry land generally do not influence nation relations.
So as long as you don't capture/sink the Coast Guard ships, you shouldn't really have a hugely bad impact even if you are caught by your own served nation.

But since the idea of trying to get the patrol book is to avoid having to fight soldiers then this is probably not a viable proposition because if you don't mind the risk of having to fight or run from the town guard then you shouldn't be worried about having to fight or run from the coastguard either... (Especially as the town guard are probably a lot tougher.)

I think the idea is that if you DO get caught, which is obviously not a whole lot of fun, then at least you get some compensation for next time.