HMS Indefatigable (1784) frigate

[Martes]

Images from a test voyage

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[Pieter Boelen]

She looks amazing!

Glad to see you got the pennant working as well.
Do you have two sets of flag and penn locators?

 

[Martes]

She looks amazing!

Thanks! Actually, I can't take my eyes off her myself.

Glad to see you got the pennant working as well.
Do you have two sets of flag and penn locators?

Yes. The problem was I had to reset the refship.flag variables in ship_init.c to make it work.

Basically, she's ready for the game.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Yes. The problem was I had to reset the refship.flag variables in ship_init.c to make it work.

You can use Reinit (F11) to apply ships_init.c changes to an existing save.
There is also a quite simple console command to then update your own ship as well.
Tutorial - Modding Tips & Tricks

 

[Martes]

You can use Reinit (F11) to apply ships_init.c changes to an existing save.

I have already found the F11 + F12 trick, yes.
But the problem was that the setup of the old Indy I replaced was different from mine.

I had to remove redundant lines and use

refShip.Flags.Mast3.Flag1 = FLAG_PENNANT;
refShip.Flags.Mast4.Flag1 = FLAG_ENSIGN;

Then it worked fine

 

[Grey Roger]

What shall we do with her data, though? Maneuverability, speeds, hitpoints, etc?

If you look in "Ships_init.c", you'll find there's already a "HMS_Indefatigable". Presumably you've called yours something else. But as a start point, unless anyone knows better, you could always copy the stats from that one, then change whatever you know to be different for yours. Starting with armament - that version is listed as having 12lb guns. The real one had a mixture of 24lb guns and 12lb guns. PoTC can't handle different cannon calibres on the same ship so the armament in the game is usually an average of the various guns on the real ship, so perhaps give this one 18lb cannons. The current ship has a maximum crew of 420, whereas Wikipedia gives the real frigate's crew as 310.

If you can get the ship finished and put all the files somewhere where I can get at them this week, I'll include her in the update archive which I maintain. I'll be away next week and the week after, so if the ship misses this week's upload, it won't go in until at least September.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

It is best is everything attached to mast1 begins with the number 1, everything attached to mast2 begins with a 2, etc.

More ropes do add to the physics and graphics loads, but it's nothing that a modern computer can't handle except that the total load goes to one core only.

Oh, and there is no such thing as too much AA and AF so the ropes can be seen clearly.

 

[Captain Armstrong]

I don't think most other ships have averaged gun calibers-so it'd be best to give her 24pdrs like the constitution.

Love that first screenshot in a squall!

 

[Martes]

It is best is everything attached to mast1 begins with the number 1, everything attached to mast2 begins with a 2, etc.

Ha!

My numeration was a bit more complex.

- Tacks, ropes attached to the edges of the sails, were numbered
[mast number][yard number][1-starboard/2-port]
- Braces and lifts, which are also paired per yard, were numbered as
[mast number][yard number][rope number][1-starboard/2-port]
- Parts of the standing rigging that were exactly in the middle (x = 0), were numbered as
[5][source mast][destination mast][number from top/forward to bottom/stern in that region]

Can't say I didn't mess that a little, but overall I was able to pause and resume the process twice and still understand what I am doing and where.

Oh, and there is no such thing as too much AA and AF so the ropes can be seen clearly.

How did you setup that!? Video card settings or ENB?

If you look in "Ships_init.c", you'll find there's already a "HMS_Indefatigable". Presumably you've called yours something else. But as a start point, unless anyone knows better, you could always copy the stats from that one, then change whatever you know to be different for yours. Starting with armament - that version is listed as having 12lb guns. The real one had a mixture of 24lb guns and 12lb guns. PoTC can't handle different cannon calibres on the same ship so the armament in the game is usually an average of the various guns on the real ship, so perhaps give this one 18lb cannons. The current ship has a maximum crew of 420, whereas Wikipedia gives the real frigate's crew as 310.

I went the easy way and simply replaced the HMS_Indefatigable model.
In ships_init.c I changed a bit the numbers to reflect 24pdr guns and gave her more hull points, as she is the sturdy part of a ship of the line, and movement data from Connie (those I would tune down a bit for release, but that's up to you).
The reports say she ran up to 12.5 knots with wind aft and 9 kt close hauled.
As to the crew, I left 420 for prize-crews
My version of her section in ships_init.c will be included with the model for reference.

I don't think most other ships have averaged gun calibers-so it'd be best to give her 24pdrs like the constitution.

I would totally agree with that. If counting the pounds of the carronades,

(26*24 + (8+4+4)*12 + 6*42) / 48 = 22.25, which is closer to 24 than to 18.

If you can get the ship finished and put all the files somewhere where I can get at them this week, I'll include her in the update archive which I maintain. I'll be away next week and the week after, so if the ship misses this week's upload, it won't go in until at least September.

I will make some last checks, repack and PM you the link, hopefully today.
Obviously, the whole business of interchangeable figureheads, different paint schemes, etc - it's all for later patches

 

[Pieter Boelen]

One question that springs to mind: What to do with the old Indy?
If I recall, that's a repaint of one of the many old versions of HMS Surprise that we've had through the years.
That almost got completely replaced, but we "rescued" her as the Indy.
@Armada, do you remember the specifics of that?

 

[Grey Roger]

The old "Indy" shows up as "Razée Frigate" and is structurally identical to (and, for that matter, repaint compatible with) "FR_Boussole". It has different stats, so I'd keep it - possibly rename it again.

I would totally agree with that. If counting the pounds of the carronades,

(26*24 + (8+4+4)*12 + 6*42) / 48 = 22.25, which is closer to 24 than to 18.

Carronades count as two calibres smaller, so they'd effectively count as 24lb. In that case the average drops to 20.

As a comparison, the real HMS Surprise, a captured French Unité class frigate, had 24 x 32lb carronades and 10 x 18lb carronades, for an average of 27.88, which is closer to 24 than to 32. And a 24lb carronade in the game is the equivalent of a 12lb long gun. Not surprisingly, our "RN_Surprise" has 12lb guns. Realistically we should probably change that to 24lb carronades, but the point is, refShip.MaxCaliber is 12, reflecting the ship's average gun weight.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

The old "Indy" shows up as "Razée Frigate" and is structurally identical to (and, for that matter, repaint compatible with) "FR_Boussole".

In that case, I don't mind losing her altogether. But I leave that up to you.

 

[Captain Armstrong]

As a comparison, the real HMS Surprise, a captured French Unité class frigate, had 24 x 32lb carronades and 10 x 18lb carronades, for an average of 27.88, which is closer to 24 than to 32. And a 24lb carronade in the game is the equivalent of a 12lb long gun. Not surprisingly, our "RN_Surprise" has 12lb guns. Realistically we should probably change that to 24lb carronades, but the point is, refShip.MaxCaliber is 12, reflecting the ship's average gun weight.

Well that's a rather odd equivalence. 24pdr carronades generally replaced long 6pdrs, while 32pdr carronades normally replaced 9pdrs or 12pdrs. 42pdr carronades generally replaced 18pdrs or occasionally (like here) long 12pdrs. 18pdr carronades replaced 6pdrs where 24pdrs were deemed too heavy, or occasionally 4pdrs. 12pdr carronades replaced 4pdrs. I thought I tweaked this to be represented a bit more accurately in new horizons, but maybe someone else changed it back since.

 

[Grey Roger]

On the Surprise, in reality, the 24lb carronades replaced the original French 8lb long guns - we don't have 8lb, the nearest is 9lb. I imagine it's a matter of game balance, as replacing long guns with carronades three or four calibres higher would mean a ridiculous increase in hitting power unless there was some similarly drastic disadvantage. Also, carronades are something of a compromise because in reality they didn't exist until the 1770's, and originally only Britain had them - the name comes from the Carron ironworks where they were made.

But back to the Indefatigable, in which we're trying to work out whether she should have 18lb or 24lb guns to simulate the mixed armament of the real ship. If we're counting carronades as three calibres down rather than two, that strengthens the case for giving her 18lb guns in the game.

 

[Grey Roger]

In that case, I don't mind losing her altogether. But I leave that up to you.

That was supposed to be a case for keeping the ship! In fact, "FR_Boussole" shows up in "Colonial Powers", whereas the existing "Indy" only exists from "Revolutions" onwards (and the realistic "Indy" should probably only exist in "Napoleonic" as she was converted to a frigate in 1794). So when the new "Indy" goes into the game, the older one can be renamed and allowed into "Colonial Powers". After all, if the British capture a "Boussole", it effectively becomes an "Indy" - at least, it does when I'm playing "Tales of a Sea Hawk", it's my favourite type of ship in that period and I usually repaint it .

 

[Martes]

But back to the Indefatigable, in which we're trying to work out whether she should have 18lb or 24lb guns to simulate the mixed armament of the real ship. If we're counting carronades as three calibres down rather than two

That would be even stranger, since they replaced guns due to _their_ lighter weight, but delivered (at close range, though) much heavier punch.
I wouldn't argue with decision to arm her with 18pdrs, since it is all a matter of representation, and you should see better how to fit that in the current system.
I would insist, on the other hand, that you give her a ship-of-the-line grade of hit points, since that is what she is - lower part of the hull of a ship of the line, where the timbers are the thickest.

That was supposed to be a case for keeping the ship!

You can keep her as "RN_Boussole"? One more frigate to the set

 

[Captain Armstrong]

IIRC the french 8pdr shot weighed slightly more than The British 9pr due to differing measurements, but I agree that they were quite close. regardless of that the surprise was in fact fitted with 32pdr carronades for her main battery after capture, not 24s. (This might just be a typo, you said her correct armament in the prior post) and that only supports that long 9=32pdr carronade further. Also Shouldn't her max long gun caliber be 9pdrs, then? Or does the long gun caliber average the long main battery with carronades on the QD& forcastle?

Also, Carronades did provide a massive increase in hitting power over long guns of the same mass, that's why they were so popular. Their drawbacks were in much reduced range and penetration power (which are of course related). Those were real disadvantages though, and why the main battery of long guns were very rarely replaced by carronades (just look to the fate of the USS Essex) By the napoleonic era they had been adopted by major navies, though of course in the 1770s and to a certain extent through the early 1790s it was only the Brits that had them. I certainly agree they shouldn't be available at all before the 'revolutions' time period. I think it might be more realistic to drop the range of carronades further as a whole rather than downgrade their calibers unrealisticly on each ship, if they are overpowered. Its unfortunate that there is not the complexity in how potc calculates damage to represent their reduced penetration power except as a function of range

The Indy actually has fewer guns than the average napoleonic 18pdr 38(46) but they are all a caliber higher (24s vs 18s on the gundeck, long 12s and 42pdr carronades vs long 9s and 32pdr carronades on the QD& forcastle) so in my opinion she should have a 24pdr armament-but I'll admit you are more up to date with how NH is balanced in this regard.

Hopefully all this can be avoided in NHR, because Arming each deck with their correct armament will make for much more realistic (and dynamic) gameplay without the compromises present in either maxing out armament or trying to average it.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

That sounds similar to the numbering system I used too. Some of the numbering systems used were so chaotic that they had to be tossed overboard and a new numbering system installed from scratch.

I have an AMD video card and in Radeon Settings under games it has the .exe for every game I have installed listed and I can set the graphics options for each one individually.

 

[Martes]

I have an AMD video card and in Radeon Settings under games it has the .exe for every game I have installed listed and I can set the graphics options for each one individually.

That is what I meant by video card settings

On another note, I have been experimenting a little here...

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I am fully aware this is completely unhistorical (at least there is no evidence Indy was ever fitted with one), but I couldn't deny myself to try and add a chase port to the forward of the gundeck.
It is closed, obviously, and there is no even little place to fit there another gun - so it's purely graphical, but I do think it makes the battery a little bit more streamlined.

The only justification for this is, actually, in one of the paintings shared by @Captain Armstrong a while ago:
The Anson's Escape from five frigates, 12 October 1798 - National Maritime Museum
Where Anson features a similar port.

What do you think? Is it worth keeping as a version?

P.S.
It is painted black now, don't worry, I haven't made her Venetian.

 

[Grey Roger]

I would say that the chase port should not be there. The painting of HMS Anson is not a useful reference as Anson was originally an "Intrepid" class whereas Indefatigable was originally "Ardent" class. Not only is there no evidence that Indy had such a port, there is some evidence that she did not - the plans which were used as a reference for this model do not show it.

As for stats: I've dropped the HP down to 8000. This isn't equivalent to the Bellona, an 84-gun ship of the line; the Ardent class was a smaller type with only 64 guns and was felt to be too weak to operate as a ship of the line, which is why the "Indy" was razeed down to a frigate. The "Poseidon" and "Fleuron" types in PoTC, with 66 guns, are perhaps closer to the original design even though they are older types, seen in the "Golden Age" and "Colonial Powers" periods. These have 9000 HP. I used them as the basis for my "SP_Natividad" and dropped the HP there to 8500. "HMS_Indefatigable" is still a lot tougher than other frigates - the "Constitution" and its equivalents in other nations have only 5500 HP. Tonnage, on the other hand, goes up to 2200, again in line with the "Constitution", and for that matter, close to the "Fleuron" types - if it's getting the heavier HP due to having the hull of a former ship of the line then it's getting the weight as well!

The real HMS Indefatigable was converted to a frigate in 1794, so as a frigate, it can only appear in the "Napoleonic" period.

The existing "HMS_Indefatigable" and "FR_Indefatigable" are being renamed "RN_Razee" and "FR_Razee". "RN_Razee" can now appear to a limited extent in "Colonial Powers" to take on "FR_Boussole".