Historical Flags?

kblack · Mar 25, 2006

I have noticed that the game flags aren't historical:

- England: In the game they use the Union Jack - but the Union didn't exist till mid-1700... AFAIK, even at Napoleonic Wars the Royal Navy used the St Andrews cross (a red cross over white)

- Spain: In the game they use a strange flag with 3 colors... actual seems to try to represent the actual spanish flag ( a central yellow band, with to narrower red bands up and down). AFAIK, the actual spanish flag was the one used by the Navy when the Bourbons started to rule Spain, but that's after 1707... and the game is in 1690

- France: No idea if it's accurate the flag... at least has a lot of Fleur d'lis

- Holland: No idea.

- Portugal: No idea.

Merciless Mark · Mar 25, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kblack @ Mar 25 2006, 08:28 PM) [snapback]143278[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
I have noticed that the game flags aren't historical:

- England: In the game they use the Union Jack - but the Union didn't exist till mid-1700... AFAIK, even at Napoleonic Wars the Royal Navy used the St Andrews cross (a red cross over white)

- Spain: In the game they use a strange flag with 3 colors... actual seems to try to represent the actual spanish flag ( a central yellow band, with to narrower red bands up and down). AFAIK, the actual spanish flag was the one used by the Navy when the Bourbons started to rule Spain, but that's after 1707... and the game is in 1690

- France: No idea if it's accurate the flag... at least has a lot of Fleur d'lis

- Holland: No idea.

- Portugal: No idea.
</div>

Flag master here, well maybe not, i assume you use the build-post build, if you use post build get the merciless white ensign pack for better flags <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

the first union jack came into existance already in the 17th century, it was a mix of the english and scottish flag, think of it as the current flag but without the red X

Alot of vessels flew ensigns, while not being an expert id say the white ensign was the most common one during the 17th century probally. basically its the st andrews cross with the jack in the corner

Spanish flag: again im no real expert, but the spanish ensign that existed at the time of trafalgar was the red and yellow colors, i think it dates back possibly earlier, otherwise ships also at one point flew the cross of burgundy.

The "fleur de luis" existed in many incarnations, its difficult to say wich is the exactly precise one, but i do beleive a white one with a large quantity of fleur the luis existed on it.

Holland: quite accurate, hollands current flag dates very far back

Portugal: hard to say, seems fairly accurate but there seems to be very little reference to it.

I hope this helps some <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Bloody Pirate · Mar 25, 2006

Well about the portuguese flag i can help you, if you are refering to the flag that comes with the stock game, than it can be said that it is fairly acurate, although i will not suport the claim that it is a 100% correct, because, the game flag is lacking detail, and also because in our history we had three similar flags, too of wich can aply to the timeframe of the game.
for more information u can see this site, wich has a collection of the most important flags for Portugal -> <a href="http://sapp.telepac.pt/lanceiro.online/bandeiras_de_portugal.htm" target="_blank">http://sapp.telepac.pt/lanceiro.online/ban...de_portugal.htm</a>

a bit off topic, in POTC i see portugal as a non important country, and only cannon fodder, because we didn't care about the caribbean, we prefered brasil! but none the less, portugal is really poorly represented in potc, because although it's power had already seen it's higher point and decreasing rapidly at the time, portugal had still a navy that was not to be trifled with...wich is to me a less strong point in this astonishing game because Portugal was the greatest sailing nation of all time and i don't care what everyone says-english included- we started it all, we died in all the seas of the world to discover New lands!!! if it wasn't for us to starting the Discoveries in the late 1300's we would all still think the Earth was flat!!! I know that the english enthusiasts might be wanting to kill me right now, but it is a fact!!! if you don't believe it, go search your history books! England had great power too, i don't blame it, it simply was smart as it got around portuguese and spanish stupidity and lazyness, although i don't like the fact that they grew by taking and stealing the colonies and lands of others!!! eastern indies?? we were there first=p China? we were there too..japan? same thing! and on and on! america?? we were there too first!!! we got to Terranova well before Columbus! it's a fact! there are people around the world who even say that columbus, wasn't even italian, that he was portuguese, although i find it hard to believe....either way or the portuguese or the spanish, the iberian peninsula had the best sailors of all time!

as for the spanish flag, i think it's not acurate at all, because i think the actual flag is not exactly as we see the Spanish flag today..but i'm not totaly secure about this, although i could swear i read it somewhere...

Merciless Mark · Mar 25, 2006

This is what the spanish ensign looked like during the battle of trafalgar

<a href="http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/conMediaFile.7473/outputRegister/html" target="_blank">http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/conMediaF...utRegister/html</a>

Cpt Fabris · Mar 25, 2006

I had a good look at trying to determine correct flags for the core period of the game (1690s) a week or two back. I came to the following conclusions based largely on the Flag of the World website:

1. The main English flag in use prior to 1707 was a white, red or blue Ensign with George cross in the canton (top left quadrant). See here: <a href="http://www.atlasgeo.net/FOTW/flags/gb-enshs.html" target="_blank">History of British Ensigns</a>

2. The Ensign in most use in the Kingdom of France at this time was a simple pure white ensign (officially only to be used by military vessels, but usually adopted by merchants/civilians too in order to get greater respect. It could however be found with a number of Fleur de lise d'or on it too. See here: <a href="http://www.atlasgeo.net/FOTW/flags/fr~mon.html" target="_blank">Kingdom of France Ensigns</a>

3. Dutch ensigns of the period were as in the game, the 'Prinsenvlag' tricolor of orange/red, white and blue. An alternative version sometimes seen was this: <a href="http://www.atlasgeo.net/FOTW/flags/nl_prvlg.html#pr" target="_blank">Multiple striped princesflag</a>
See here: <a href="http://www.atlasgeo.net/FOTW/flags/nl.html" target="_blank">Dutch Ensign</a>

4. The Portuguese ensign is again I believe as featured in the game for the most part dating from 1667. See here:
<a href="http://www.atlasgeo.net/FOTW/flags/pt-1667.html" target="_blank">Portuguse ensign</a>

5. Spain is a little complicated perhaps. The in-game flag as default was probably ok, though was it the Build that added the civilian and war ensign: See here: <a href="http://www.atlasgeo.net/FOTW/flags/es1520es.html" target="_blank">Civilian and war ensign</a>

I myself have decided to use what the site I've used here suggests is (perhaps) an ensign used for Galleons in the Americas: See here: <a href="http://www.atlasgeo.net/FOTW/flags/es1520am.html" target="_blank">Galleon Ensign</a>

Admiral TeaRex · Mar 26, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>if it wasn't for us to starting the Discoveries in the late 1300's we would all still think the Earth was flat!!! </div>
no, we wouldn't.
The Holy Qur'an, the book of Islam, told us that the earth was round back around 600 A.D!
it also quotes many other things that have only just been discovered by scientists!

Bloody Pirate · Mar 26, 2006

yes the arabs really knew that, but you can't forget the political/cultural/religious climate at the time!!! in christian europe all the muslim, some jewish, and even catholic scientists, and science works were labeled as heretic, blasphemy etc(holy inquisition..how i love it!! we, people of science, all do!! im being ironic!=), and even the possesion of such knowledge and even the books was considered a crime, a blasphemy and a sin, punished by prison, and even execution at the Fire!!! it's historical!!! So even if this knowledge was already avaiable to the muslims population it doens't mean much, because the rest of the world, even europe, didn't know about it, because it was a sin to read anything written by muslim men of science!!! So the portuguese and Spanish had discover it on their own as they had no acess to the muslim knowledge! what can be argued, is that maybe some iberian captains and admiral's may have gotten the hint through underground connections...some people say that and i can believe!!!...

Don't believe me? you don't need to..all you need, is to go see what happened to all those people who by chance got to know, or bought muslim books and were caught...Two Words...Human Barbecue!!!!=P

im no historian, more of an adept in Medieval/Age of Sail history in the iberic kingdoms and I think you should read a bit more of history, but a little from a non-English perspective Lord Nelson...off course i love Roman History too, otherwise i wouldn't play Rome...lol

and remember that all that "hidden" knowledge only got avaible to the world after the end of the renaissance, and many of it much latter!!! and by that everybody knew the Land was Round!! thanks to all the Portuguese and Spanish Lives lost on all those treacherous seas around the world!!!

Admiral TeaRex · Mar 27, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>execution at the Fire!!! </div>
how ironic, god had actually told us to learn from our predecessors!well, we didn't really care if we were burned for believing in God's words.
it would be the same as how the first cristians didn't care if they were punished and killed for believing in cristianity.
but, sadly, after what cristians think was the death of crist, the book was translated again and again, and no one really took the time to memorize the entire bible in its original form, which led to things being changed... severely! and that is something the arabs learned from the Qur'an and history.
as for my writing above <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>after what cristians think was the death of crist</div>
he's not dead, he was lifted up to heaven and the person who betrayed him was turned into an identical twin of Jesus by God when the killers struck, meaning the killers killed the traitor, not jesus.
if the original, unedited version of the bible existed, it would have the exact same things as what the Qur'an has, except that the Qur'an has more info, since things happened after the Bible was made.
and by that none english perspective history... i'm a Kuwaiti British combo!
meaning im a European-Arab.
P.S: sorry for turning this into a religious conversation instead of sticking to the subject, but you could say its my duty as a muslim to let others know.<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />
P.S: never take one or two people as an example for a whole religion
Bin Laden, is nuts!
Saddam is a dictator, what do you expect?
and honestly, those who take it to the extent of Osama Bin Laden think they're helping islam, but they arent.
and Saddam was a hitler and Stalin fan who went too far, that doesn't mean we're all like that.
now that i've taken that weight off my shoulders, i remember reading that the french flag at one point in history was a rich royal purple with several gold "fleur de luis" [i think that's what its called] .

KingLouisII · Mar 27, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lord Nelson @ Mar 27 2006, 04:21 AM) [snapback]143513[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
... i remember reading that the french flag at one point in history was a rich royal purple with several gold "fleur de luis" [i think that's what its called] .
</div>
Something like this? I used the flag to make a shield for my sails. BTW, those sails are ready for download Lord Nelson. It includes the other one I made for you (along with 48 others <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="wink.gif" /> )

kblack · Mar 28, 2006

About the Spanish flag, I'm rather sure that the one depicted in the game (and beared in Trafalgar) was the Bourbon's Navy flag.... but the Bourbons didn't start ruling Spain till aprox 1707... and the game starts in 1690

I'll try to find the Austrians dinasty navy flag... maybe I'll go to pay a visit to the Spanish Navy Museum...

OTOH : Anybody has a clue about where and how to edit and change the flags?????

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cpt Fabris @ Mar 26 2006, 12:37 AM) [snapback]143298[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
I had a good look at trying to determine correct flags for the core period of the game (1690s) a week or two back. I came to the following conclusions based largely on the Flag of the World website:

1. The main English flag in use prior to 1707 was a white, red or blue Ensign with George cross in the canton (top left quadrant). See here: <a href="http://www.atlasgeo.net/FOTW/flags/gb-enshs.html" target="_blank">History of British Ensigns</a>

2. The Ensign in most use in the Kingdom of France at this time was a simple pure white ensign (officially only to be used by military vessels, but usually adopted by merchants/civilians too in order to get greater respect. It could however be found with a number of Fleur de lise d'or on it too. See here: <a href="http://www.atlasgeo.net/FOTW/flags/fr~mon.html" target="_blank">Kingdom of France Ensigns</a>

3. Dutch ensigns of the period were as in the game, the 'Prinsenvlag' tricolor of orange/red, white and blue. An alternative version sometimes seen was this: <a href="http://www.atlasgeo.net/FOTW/flags/nl_prvlg.html#pr" target="_blank">Multiple striped princesflag</a>
See here: <a href="http://www.atlasgeo.net/FOTW/flags/nl.html" target="_blank">Dutch Ensign</a>

4. The Portuguese ensign is again I believe as featured in the game for the most part dating from 1667. See here:
<a href="http://www.atlasgeo.net/FOTW/flags/pt-1667.html" target="_blank">Portuguse ensign</a>

5. Spain is a little complicated perhaps. The in-game flag as default was probably ok, though was it the Build that added the civilian and war ensign: See here: <a href="http://www.atlasgeo.net/FOTW/flags/es1520es.html" target="_blank">Civilian and war ensign</a>

I myself have decided to use what the site I've used here suggests is (perhaps) an ensign used for Galleons in the Americas: See here: <a href="http://www.atlasgeo.net/FOTW/flags/es1520am.html" target="_blank">Galleon Ensign</a>
</div>

Merciless Mark · Mar 28, 2006

I know how, but i dont need competition hehe <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/razz.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :razz

" border="0" alt="razz.gif" />

kblack · Mar 28, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Merciless Mark @ Mar 28 2006, 03:41 PM) [snapback]143721[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
I know how, but i dont need competition hehe <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/razz.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :razz

" border="0" alt="razz.gif" />
</div>

<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

BTW about Spanish flag, I've found:

- In the last years of the last Austrian king (Charles II), the red and yellow flag was common

- But the Royal Ensign was an X over white

Source - Spanish Navy site - <a href="http://www.armada.mde.es/esp/CienciaCultura/HistoriayCulturaNaval/Bandera/carlosii.asp?SecAct=07604_06" target="_blank">http://www.armada.mde.es/esp/CienciaCultur...SecAct=07604_06</a>

OTOH found a paint of a Spanish-Dutch battle (1689) where the spanish seemed to bear the royal flag (mainly white) and a red ensign

<a href="http://cvc.cervantes.es/actcult/museo_naval/sala2/navios/600/navios_16_an600_al355.jpg" target="_blank">http://cvc.cervantes.es/actcult/museo_nava...an600_al355.jpg</a>

Anyway, I think that the actual POTC flag is enough accurate.

Cpt Fabris · Mar 28, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kblack @ Mar 28 2006, 02:49 PM) [snapback]143726[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Merciless Mark @ Mar 28 2006, 03:41 PM) [snapback]143721[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
I know how, but i dont need competition hehe <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/razz.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :razz

" border="0" alt="razz.gif" />
</div>

<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

BTW about Spanish flag, I've found:

- In the last years of the last Austrian king (Charles II), the red and yellow flag was common

- But the Royal Ensign was an X over white

Source - Spanish Navy site - <a href="http://www.armada.mde.es/esp/CienciaCultura/HistoriayCulturaNaval/Bandera/carlosii.asp?SecAct=07604_06" target="_blank">http://www.armada.mde.es/esp/CienciaCultur...SecAct=07604_06</a>

OTOH found a paint of a Spanish-Dutch battle (1689) where the spanish seemed to bear the royal flag (mainly white) and a red ensign

<a href="http://cvc.cervantes.es/actcult/museo_naval/sala2/navios/600/navios_16_an600_al355.jpg" target="_blank">http://cvc.cervantes.es/actcult/museo_nava...an600_al355.jpg</a>

Anyway, I think that the actual POTC flag is enough accurate.
</div>

Well, it is a matter of choice really. The flag in that picture is the Bergundy Cross, which (if the FOTW is accurate) was in use from 1506 to the 1670s as an ensign, but after that only as a Jack until 1785. So the royal arms on a field of white is probably better. But depends whether you play based in the 1690s or want the 18/19th century thing where the red and gold flag is used.

Pieter Boelen · Mar 28, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kblack @ Mar 28 2006, 02:59 PM) [snapback]143713[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
OTOH : Anybody has a clue about where and how to edit and change the flags?????
</div>
Just change RESOURCE\Textures\BATTLE_INTERFACE\all_nations.tga.tx using the TX Converter and a graphics editing program.

Merciless Mark · Mar 28, 2006

look for merciless_1600_flags

i decided to make a historically accurate flag set.

The english have the Red ensign, since according to my research that was the color that was flown in the Caribbean, Spanish ensign has the cross of Burgundy, The french: the fleur de lis coverd white naval ensign. Holland and portugal are unchanged more or less.

I also took the liberty of replacing the Nathaniel nation or whatever it is with the flag of the Dutch west india trading company.

<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

capitan_caceres · Mar 29, 2006

This may seem like a stupid question, but is there a way to create some kind of multi-flag mod? that would solve some problems, for example, according to Flags of the World website, spanish vessels flown different flags depending on the squadron they belonged: <a href="http://www.atlasgeo.net/FOTW/flags/es1520es.html" target="_blank">http://www.atlasgeo.net/FOTW/flags/es1520es.html</a>

America squadron
<img src="http://www.atlasgeo.net/FOTW/images/e/es~gal.gif" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />

Flandes squadron
<img src="http://www.atlasgeo.net/FOTW/images/e/es~1520f.gif" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />

Spain squadron
<img src="http://www.atlasgeo.net/FOTW/images/e/es~1520.gif" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />

The cross of burgundy was also used a lot, specially on forts. Some examples of this are displayed on El Morro castle in Puerto Rico and fort San Marcos in Florida.

So, is there a way to make english forts fly the union jack and their ships the naval ensign?

Pieter Boelen · Mar 29, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Merciless Mark @ Mar 28 2006, 11:31 PM) [snapback]143812[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
I also took the liberty of replacing the Nathaniel nation or whatever it is with the flag of the Dutch west india trading company.
</div>
*Downloads it straight away* <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :cheeky

" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />

To Capitan Caceres: I had the idea of adding "double" nations to game: For example, one nation for the Brittish navy and one for the Brittish regular ships. That way, we can give different flags to these subnations. I think it might be possible, but we have to figure out a way to make both nations have the same relations to the main character at any given time. And we have to figure out, if we want to add different flags to the forts, how to prevent these flags of being used on ships. There's plenty to figure out about it, but I reckon it can be done. Somehow... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />

kblack · Mar 29, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pieter Boelen @ Mar 29 2006, 10:38 AM) [snapback]143857[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>

To Capitan Caceres: I had the idea of adding "double" nations to game: For example, one nation for the Brittish navy and one for the Brittish regular ships. That way, we can give different flags to these subnations. I think it might be possible, but we have to figure out a way to make both nations have the same relations to the main character at any given time. And we have to figure out, if we want to add different flags to the forts, how to prevent these flags of being used on ships. There's plenty to figure out about it, but I reckon it can be done. Somehow... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />
</div>

Seems feasible, but:

- it will take a lot of work as my feeling is that there is a lot of places in the code where the relations, and the number of nations, are checked or modified

- for the same reason, can be very "bug-generating" (as an exmple, the bug with the governors hunt-pirate quest seems to be "activated" when appeared new nations for implement "surrendered" ships)

Anyway, I can give a couple of clues about this if anybody is interested.

capitan_caceres · Mar 29, 2006

MMMM, what about this. Adding the new flags just as graphical pleasures selectable by the player, something like the color of the sails, but divided in subgroups per nation.... mmm that sounded like the same thing, feel free to slap me if I say anything stupid, I know 0 of coding, I only do 3D models.

Another possibly dumb idea, having 2 flags per ship, the unique national flag is flown ove the mast and the sub-group flag is flown at the stern...????

Admiral TeaRex · Mar 29, 2006

i think it would probably work... but i, much like yourself, know nothing about coding.
but if the extra flags would work like sails do, then it would be great.
P.S: if this does happen to get somewhere and actually come up in game, then maybe we could redo all the ranking stuff with the governor, and give it to a Lord High Admiral character, and have different flags depending on your rank, I.E: vice- admiral of white squadron: white ensign on the fore mast, vice- admiral of red squadron: red ensign on the formast, Admiral of blue squadron: blue ensign on main mast, admiral of white squadron white ensign on mainmast, admiral of red squadron: red ensign on mainmast, admiral of the fleet in the caribbean: red ensign on all masts, with the option to change all thos flags to a different ensign, or multiple ones...
what do you think?
i really hope that the multiple flags can be implemented into the game

Historical Flags?

Landlubber

Build mod - Master Gunner

Landlubber

Build mod - Master Gunner

Landlubber

Feared English Admiral

Landlubber

Feared English Admiral

Sailor Apprentice

Landlubber

Build mod - Master Gunner

Landlubber

Landlubber

Navigation Officer

Build mod - Master Gunner

Sailor

Navigation Officer

Landlubber

Sailor

Feared English Admiral