Discussion Confused with the Rheims backstory

[Lonious]

I'm now trying to make some edits in the PotC wiki site regarding the game's lore, and I'm a little confused as to the hidden backstory of Rheims and his Khael Roa business.

I understand a man named Brendan Applin was one of his crew and asked Danielle to escort him to Redmond to tell the governor? Was he the guy that Silehard refers to as the one "at death's door" which told him that Rheims was last seen at Quebradas Costillas? Who's Giraldo Figuiera and is he the bosun of Alistair Garcilaso? Who's the "crazy girl" who killed Giraldo, and is he the same guy Alistair talks about? I'm so confused.

Then at some point Danielle sails to Quebradas and Silehard told Isenbrandt to kill her right?

I take it that the "pirate who slipped away" from Greenford was this girl? Who is she? And does all of this have to do with the frigate Ewan Glover talks about that is sent on a special mission by Silehard?

Really, I find this all so confusing. I look forward to your answers.

Thanks.

 

[Grey Roger]

I understand a man named Brendan Applin was one of his crew and asked Danielle to escort him to Redmond to tell the governor? Was he the guy that Silehard refers to as the one "at death's door" which told him that Rheims was last seen at Quebradas Costillas? Who's Giraldo Figuiera and is he the bosun of Alistair Garcilaso? Who's the "crazy girl" who killed Giraldo, and is he the same guy Alistair talks about? I'm so confused.

I don't know anything about Brendan Applin. The developers originally intended for you to have the choice to play as Nathaniel or Danielle, though they never got very far with that, and the only traces of Danielle's story are some pieces of dialog which are never used.

Giraldo Figuiera was presumably Danielle's accomplice in stealing the golden idol. She tells you "I gave it to a man named Giraldo Figuiera. But he's already dead - probably because of the idol." Other witnesses mention the crazy girl who killed Giraldo, presumably Danielle, who is also the prisoner you're supposed to take from Greenford to Silehard and who escaped.

Then at some point Danielle sails to Quebradas and Silehard told Isenbrandt to kill her right?

I take it that the "pirate who slipped away" from Greenford was this girl? Who is she? And does all of this have to do with the frigate Ewan Glover talks about that is sent on a special mission by Silehard?

I don't know if Silehard told Isenbrandt Jurcksen to kill Danielle, but since there's evidence that he used the pirate's services in the past and he certainly did order Danielle to be killed, it wouldn't surprise me if he asked Isenbrandt to do it. Then, when you fail to capture Raoul Rheims, Silehard sends you to deliver a letter to Isenbrandt, presumably asking him to find and kill Raoul.

The pirate who escaped from Greenford was almost certainly Danielle. Until she tried to steal the idol with a view to going after Khael Roa's treasure for herself, she was working for Silehard. So was Raoul Rheims, which is why you meet him in Silehard's residence when you first go there.

The "frigate" sent by Silehard on a special mission was the big ship you see near the end of the game. Glover goes on to say "No clear reason? The war was on his doorstep, and the governor sent the most powerful ship in the fleet off to God knows where?" And according to Wikipedia's entry for "Frigate":

Even the huge English Sovereign of the Seas could be described as "a delicate frigate" after her upper decks were reduced in 1651.

 

[Lonious]

Giraldo Figuiera was presumably Danielle's accomplice in stealing the golden idol. She tells you "I gave it to a man named Giraldo Figuiera. But he's already dead - probably because of the idol." Other witnesses mention the crazy girl who killed Giraldo, presumably Danielle, who is also the prisoner you're supposed to take from Greenford to Silehard and who escaped.

As I had guessed. So she just killed him like that? For the idol? Sounds pretty nasty to me.

Initially, I thought Brendan and Giraldo were the same person, because Brendan's dialog indicates him dying of "swamp fever" (malaria) and we know Giraldo was sick with Malaria according to Danielle's dialog file reading of Rheims' journal. So I thought Brendan didn't make it to Redmond, so Danielle was the one to report to Silehard, without knowing that he'd have her killed for knowing of the legend - then Silehard frames her for the man's "murder" (which in truth was death by the disease).

The "frigate" sent by Silehard on a special mission was the big ship you see near the end of the game. Glover goes on to say "No clear reason? The war was on his doorstep, and the governor sent the most powerful ship in the fleet off to God knows where?" And according to Wikipedia's entry for "Frigate":

Didn't it have a captain of its own?

Anyways...thanks for your response. This really clears things up.

 

[Grey Roger]

Initially, I thought Brendan and Giraldo were the same person, because Brendan's dialog indicates him dying of "swamp fever" (malaria) and we know Giraldo was sick with Malaria according to Danielle's dialog file reading of Rheims' journal. So I thought Brendan didn't make it to Redmond, so Danielle was the one to report to Silehard, without knowing that he'd have her killed for knowing of the legend - then Silehard frames her for the man's "murder" (which in truth was death by the disease).

Giraldo might have been sick with malaria but he didn't die of it. From "Greenford Soldier_dialog.h":

And suddenly we see a girl dressed in men's clothing coming from a house, with blood on her boots.
...
We arrested her, and then, when we saw a corpse lying in pool of blood, we took the girl in custody.

And Danielle herself tells you:

I gave it to a man named Giraldo Figuiera. But he's already dead - probably because of the idol.

Draw your own conclusions, bearing in mind that when you're interviewing the soldier, you convince him that you're working for Silehard, so he's unlikely to lie to you. If Silehard was framing Danielle for the murder and the soldier had been ordered to lie to implicate Danielle, he'd probably be suspicious if you're claiming to be investigating the murder on Silehard's behalf.

Another interesting item from the soldier's testimony:

This other fellow tried to steal a little boat, and when we caught him, we took a strange golden idol from him.

Presumably that wasn't Rheims otherwise Silehard wouldn't have needed to send an assassin after him. Possibly he was Silehard's agent, though the soldier doesn't know that - he just knows that the commander took the idol from the soldier. The commander, being further up the chain of command, could then have quietly released this other man if he was indeed Silehard's agent.

In any case, if Giraldo died in a pool of blood, it probably wasn't malaria which killed him.

Didn't it have a captain of its own?

At the time when Silehard sent the ship off on his personal mission, it probably had a different captain, otherwise Silehard couldn't have sent it anywhere. Even in the final battle, you can imagine the ship having a captain who oversees the general running of the ship, in much the same way that Endeavour had a captain who answered to Cutler Beckett. But the ship is assigned to Silehard in the game - check his character definition.

 

[Lonious]

Giraldo might have been sick with malaria but he didn't die of it. From "Greenford Soldier_dialog.h":
And Danielle herself tells youraw your own conclusions, bearing in mind that when you're interviewing the soldier, you convince him that you're working for Silehard, so he's unlikely to lie to you. If Silehard was framing Danielle for the murder and the soldier had been ordered to lie to implicate Danielle, he'd probably be suspicious if you're claiming to be investigating the murder on Silehard's behalf.

Another interesting item from the soldier's testimonyresumably that wasn't Rheims otherwise Silehard wouldn't have needed to send an assassin after him. Possibly he was Silehard's agent, though the soldier doesn't know that - he just knows that the commander took the idol from the soldier. The commander, being further up the chain of command, could then have quietly released this other man if he was indeed Silehard's agent.

In any case, if Giraldo died in a pool of blood, it probably wasn't malaria which killed him.

So the way I see it, Giraldo was Alistair's "bosun" (boatswain?) and was one of the pirates who boarded the Sirena which may have been Rheims' ship. Then he was the one to get the idol, then at some point later, Danielle killed him for it.

I was about to mention the soldier's testimony because I just came across that earlier today.

If this is the case, it looks like Danielle would be just as nasty as Silehard. At least Nathaniel wanted the temple to get rid of the Pearl and not money.

 

[Grey Roger]

Giraldo Figuiera was Raoul Rheims' navigator, according to one of the pieces of Rheims' diary in "danielle_dialog.h". The Sirena was Silehard's ship and he sends you to collect it, or at least to retrieve its cargo.

Nathaniel was also after the treasure. He had no choice about fighting the Black Pearl as it attacked him while he was leaving Khael Roa. Fortunately Danielle, impatient for loot, had grabbed the glowy thing before Clement had figured out what traps might be in the temple and how to disarm them, which at least meant Nathaniel and Danielle had the means to defeat the Pearl.

Now for another twist - maybe Silehard was the good guy! Perhaps he knew about the Black Pearl - a near-invincible pirate ship could be more of a threat than the French fleet, and sufficient justification for sending the huge man-of-war to look for the means to defeat it. Raoul Rheims, Danielle, and subsequently Nathaniel, all betrayed him, so he had to use any means available to get them out of the way - they couldn't be allowed to prevent him from finding the means to defeat the Pearl and save the Caribbean.

 

[Lonious]

Nathaniel was also after the treasure. He had no choice about fighting the Black Pearl as it attacked him while he was leaving Khael Roa.

He was, but afaik he was also pressed to find it after Gordon told him of the artifact's ability to sink the Pearl.

There's also that line about buying land Danielle tells him after the Greenford battle with Tomlison (the pirate-killer Silehard briefly mentions in the beginning) to which Nathaniel replies, "maybe we should have a chat with Moses Blinman first." Odd that he should mention the guy - wasn't he just one of the people in Oxbay? What's up here?

Now for another twist - maybe Silehard was the good guy! Perhaps he knew about the Black Pearl - a near-invincible pirate ship could be more of a threat than the French fleet, and sufficient justification for sending the huge man-of-war to look for the means to defeat it. Raoul Rheims, Danielle, and subsequently Nathaniel, all betrayed him, so he had to use any means available to get them out of the way - they couldn't be allowed to prevent him from finding the means to defeat the Pearl and save the Caribbean.

Well, Rheims didn't seem to betray Silehard as evidenced by the journal lines in Danielle's dialog file...since he writes that he's surprised that one of Silehard's men shot him. Strange.

Still, that alternate theory could always work, lol. It's probably the only ship that can take out the Pearl alone (tried it recently!) even without the artifact.

Reminds me of how in the first movie the Pearl's crew were always reluctant to engage Swann's Dauntless...does the movie's Pearl have a similar buff as to the game version's?

 

[Grey Roger]

He was, but afaik he was also pressed to find it after Gordon told him of the artifact's ability to sink the Pearl.

That's just your clue that you need an artifact to sink the Pearl. Nathaniel isn't actively trying to hunt it, he's after the loot. The whole section about the treasure chest, the cursed pirates ambushing you at the tavern, and the subsequent conversations with Gordon Carpenter and Henry Peat appears to have been tacked on as an extra, judging by the way the code is structured.

There's also that line about buying land Danielle tells him after the Greenford battle with Tomlison (the pirate-killer Silehard briefly mentions in the beginning) to which Nathaniel replies, "maybe we should have a chat with Moses Blinman first." Odd that he should mention the guy - wasn't he just one of the people in Oxbay? What's up here?

Perhaps the developers originally had plans for Moses Blinman or perhaps it's a mistake in the dialog text. You're supposed to talk to Clement next.

Well, Rheims didn't seem to betray Silehard as evidenced by the journal lines in Danielle's dialog file...since he writes that he's surprised that one of Silehard's men shot him. Strange.

Rheims tells Danielle that Silehard has been after him ever since he learned of the treasure. He thinks Silehard doesn't know about the legend and the idol. And Silehard doesn't want you to know about the idol's significance; when you return with the collection from the Sirena, minus one item, he dismisses it as unimportant and sends you off on a different mission, while he makes alternative arrangements to retrieve the idol.

Reminds me of how in the first movie the Pearl's crew were always reluctant to engage Swann's Dauntless...does the movie's Pearl have a similar buff as to the game version's?

The movie Black Pearl is under the curse of Cortes, so the crew are immortal until Will Turner lifts the curse. Whether the ship itself is similarly cursed and immortal is not clear. Of course, the curse and the means to defeat it are completely different in the game - the movie never heard of the glowy thing and the stock game never heard of the Cortes curse. (But if you look at "PROGRAM\Characters\English\init\StoryCharacters.c", you'll find Barbossa. He's the captain of the Black Pearl.)

 

[Lonious]

That's just your clue that you need an artifact to sink the Pearl. Nathaniel isn't actively trying to hunt it, he's after the loot. The whole section about the treasure chest, the cursed pirates ambushing you at the tavern, and the subsequent conversations with Gordon Carpenter and Henry Peat appears to have been tacked on as an extra, judging by the way the code is structured.

So, Nathaniel was mainly after the gold, and the artifact they find in the temple just happened to be the one Gordon discussed and it so happens that right after the temple scene, the Black Pearl attacks - giving the heroes the exact right time to use it.

Then again, why does the Pearl even sail to Khael Roa? Are some of the cursed coins there?

Rheims tells Danielle that Silehard has been after him ever since he learned of the treasure. He thinks Silehard doesn't know about the legend and the idol. And Silehard doesn't want you to know about the idol's significance; when you return with the collection from the Sirena, minus one item, he dismisses it as unimportant and sends you off on a different mission, while he makes alternative arrangements to retrieve the idol.

At first, I thought Silehard was just after loot, so the lack of one idol didn't really seriously concern him. The fact that he sails ahead to Khael Roa instead of pursuing whoever sunk the Arabella seems to suggest this. Which means he didn't know everything about the temple as Rheims says. He didn't know that an idol was needed to open the door to the alclove.

Or, your theory is correct, and Silehard just went straight to Khael Roa knowing that his rivals would head there anyway, and they would have the idol, and he would take it from them after his fleet crushed them.

The movie Black Pearl is under the curse of Cortes, so the crew are immortal until Will Turner lifts the curse. Whether the ship itself is similarly cursed and immortal is not clear. Of course, the curse and the means to defeat it are completely different in the game - the movie never heard of the glowy thing and the stock game never heard of the Cortes curse. (But if you look at "PROGRAM\Characters\English\init\StoryCharacters.c", you'll find Barbossa. He's the captain of the Black Pearl.)

Well, the Cortes curse is never mentioned directly, but Henry Peat does tell the same story about spending cursed coins...so maybe it's the same.

Now, the Black Pearl also intrigues me. Is the game version supposed to be invincible and vulnerable (but still unnaturally tough) only after using the ball? Or sinkable, but just absurdly tough (and the ball damages it significantly)?

For the film version, they are scared to fight the Dauntless, so it's not invulnerable. It also gets damaged when fighting the Dutchman - similarly, the Dutchman also gets hurt, but can come back.

Anyway, it's possible that the film version is also super tough to sink, since the Endeavour got wrecked in the third film even if it significantly outgunned them both.

 

[Grey Roger]

So, Nathaniel was mainly after the gold, and the artifact they find in the temple just happened to be the one Gordon discussed and it so happens that right after the temple scene, the Black Pearl attacks - giving the heroes the exact right time to use it.

Then again, why does the Pearl even sail to Khael Roa? Are some of the cursed coins there?

Possibly Khael Roa is the Black Pearl's base. Or perhaps the captain knows you're after the one thing that can really hurt him, wants to prevent you from getting it, and arrives too late. (Or perhaps the developers didn't think through the plot thoroughly enough.)

Well, the Cortes curse is never mentioned directly, but Henry Peat does tell the same story about spending cursed coins...so maybe it's the same.

The whole chapter with the cursed coins appears to have been tacked on. The game was originally going to be "Seadogs 2" until Akella and Disney made the deal to tie the game to the film, so that part was probably added just to put something from the film into the game. But you don't lift the curse by putting a blood-covered coin into a big chest, as Will Turner does. You defeat the curse by finding the glowy thing in a temple, neither of which have anything to do with the film.

Now, the Black Pearl also intrigues me. Is the game version supposed to be invincible and vulnerable (but still unnaturally tough) only after using the ball? Or sinkable, but just absurdly tough (and the ball damages it significantly)?

It was probably given an absurd amount of HP in the hope of making it unsinkable without using the ball to reduce it - that's what the ball is for. The game was rushed a bit to release it in time for the film, so the developers might not have realised that the big ship is capable of sinking the Black Pearl without using the ball, though it takes a lot longer.

For the film version, they are scared to fight the Dauntless, so it's not invulnerable. It also gets damaged when fighting the Dutchman - similarly, the Dutchman also gets hurt, but can come back.

Anyway, it's possible that the film version is also super tough to sink, since the Endeavour got wrecked in the third film even if it significantly outgunned them both.

The battle in the third film was nonsense anyway. The reason Endeavour got wrecked is that Cutler Beckett turned into a gibbering idiot whimpering about good business and the captain failed to take the initiative. What should have happened was that Endeavour, realising that the two pirate ships had done exactly what it wanted, should have fired both broadsides at once and wrecked both of them. On the other hand, instead of turning towards Endeavour to pass by on both sides, the pirate ships should have both turned to cross the bow of Endeavour, a classic naval tactic known as "crossing the 'T'", meaning they could both fire broadsides while Endeavour could only fire its bow guns.

 

[Lonious]

The whole chapter with the cursed coins appears to have been tacked on. The game was originally going to be "Seadogs 2" until Akella and Disney made the deal to tie the game to the film, so that part was probably added just to put something from the film into the game.

I knew that it's supposed to be Sea Dogs 2, but what was the main quest originally supposed to be? Was the whole temple ordeal latched on after their Faustian pact with Disney?

But you don't lift the curse by putting a blood-covered coin into a big chest, as Will Turner does. You defeat the curse by finding the glowy thing in a temple, neither of which have anything to do with the film.

From my understanding, the pirates want the coins, because that's what'll allow them to die in peace, not the glowy ball, which only allows the Pearl to be sunk - something they don't want as the loss of their fast ship would lengthen their task.

The battle in the third film was nonsense anyway. The reason Endeavour got wrecked is that Cutler Beckett turned into a gibbering idiot whimpering about good business and the captain failed to take the initiative. What should have happened was that Endeavour, realising that the two pirate ships had done exactly what it wanted, should have fired both broadsides at once and wrecked both of them. On the other hand, instead of turning towards Endeavour to pass by on both sides, the pirate ships should have both turned to cross the bow of Endeavour, a classic naval tactic known as "crossing the 'T'", meaning they could both fire broadsides while Endeavour could only fire its bow guns.

Sure, I hated that part as well, she was such a cool ship and not once is she shown in action. It reminded me of the Executor from A New Hope. "But they're magic ships" etc. - since when have the Pearl/Dutchman been told to be invincible? Beckett isn't really a navy guy, but Groves should've returned fire. It would've saved a lot of lives.

 

[Grey Roger]

I knew that it's supposed to be Sea Dogs 2, but what was the main quest originally supposed to be? Was the whole temple ordeal latched on after their Faustian pact with Disney?

Looking at the structure of the code, the temple was probably original. It has nothing to do with the film, so it was probably part of the original plan. The ship which attacks you after the temple might also have been there originally, though possibly not named Black Pearl until the Disney deal.

From my understanding, the pirates want the coins, because that's what'll allow them to die in peace, not the glowy ball, which only allows the Pearl to be sunk - something they don't want as the loss of their fast ship would lengthen their task.

The pirates want to find all the coins so that they can die in peace. You (the player, not necessarily Nathaniel the character) want the ball to defeat the Black Pearl. Danielle wants the ball because it's shiny - she just thinks it's her first part of the treasure. If the pirates know about the ball then they certainly don't want you to have it.

 

[Lonious]

Looking at the structure of the code, the temple was probably original. It has nothing to do with the film, so it was probably part of the original plan. The ship which attacks you after the temple might also have been there originally, though possibly not named Black Pearl until the Disney deal.


The pirates want to find all the coins so that they can die in peace. You (the player, not necessarily Nathaniel the character) want the ball to defeat the Black Pearl. Danielle wants the ball because it's shiny - she just thinks it's her first part of the treasure. If the pirates know about the ball then they certainly don't want you to have it.

Alright, I've decided to get back to editing the wiki, so I thought of consulting you again.

Firstly, who was the third person the Greenford soldiers mention when they arrested "Danielle"? Could this be an assassin sent by Silehard to kill Giraldo? The way I see it is, Giraldo seems to be the original owner of the idol. He probably was on the Sirena and under Alistair when they took it from the British since Alistair claims his "bosun" was killed by a "crazy lass". I think Alistair took this idol then he settled in Greenford. Possibly, he was courting Danielle at the time (according to the tavern guy) or something, and they were living in the same town when one night a guy comes in and stabs Giraldo, then probably Danielle saw Giraldo's corpse on the floor and stepped on his blood. Of course, maybe Danielle herself killed Giraldo for it, but if this is the case who is the third guy?

Second, was Rheims the captain of the Belette? Ewan Glover tells Nathaniel that Silehard gave secret orders to a "flagship" which you theorize to be the manowar. We know from the game code that Rheims was tasked to pursue the treasure by Silehard. Would this mean the Belette's original captain was in fact Rheims? And was Rheims the "young man" who wrote down the Inca scribbles to parchment?

Lastly, in the invasion cutscene, we see a French fleet of several warships, including what appears to be a battleship, some corvettes & frigates, and some brigs. Then we're given a glimpse of a three-decker ship putting out cannons and firing on those ships. Was this a French ship, or a British one? It appears to me that this could be the Belette since there's only one three-decker ship in the whole game, and the color schemes kind of match. And I don't think there was a squadron of Class 2/1 ships guarding Oxbay at the time...

So, I know I sound super obsessed about these minute details, and I figure I should ask around in this forum.

 

[Grey Roger]

Third man in Greenford: no information is available. Possibly an assassin from Silehard, possibly Alistair Garcilaso's boatswain, possibly someone completely different. The only mention of him is the soldier's report that he tried to steal a little boat and was found in possession of the idol, presumably taken from Giraldo Figuiera.

According to the part of "Danielle_dialog.h" where she's reading Raoul Rheims' diary, Giraldo was Raoul's navigator.

From "Alistair Garcilaso_dialog.h":

Then this crazy lass who killed my bos'n shows up, looking for one of these cursed idols.

The reason that Giraldo had the idol, if Danielle is to be believed, is that she gave it to him. There is no evidence that he was involved in taking it from the Sirena in the first place.

Putting all that together, Danielle killed Alistair's boatswain before she went to Alistair and forced him to give her the idol. At some point she gave it to Giraldo, with whom she may have been having an affair according to Greenford tavern keeper Simon Hanpool:

They say that it was some crazy girl who did that. He was either her lover or her ponce.

She later returned to Greenford to retrieve the idol and possibly found that someone else (the third man) had got there first. Perhaps the third man killed Giraldo and took the idol, only to then be arrested; meanwhile Danielle walked in on the crime scene, got blood on her boots, was also arrested, and subsequently escaped. Or perhaps the third man was Giraldo's new accomplice, to whom he gave the idol; then Danielle arrived, got angry, and killed Giraldo; then both Danielle and the third man were arrested, and Danielle escaped.

There is no evidence that Raoul was ever in command of anything, let alone the biggest ship in the English fleet. Depending on whether you believe Raoul or Alistair, Giraldo was either a navigator or a boatswain, and certainly not a captain.

The invasion video is the French fleet attacking Oxbay. There were no ships defending, certainly not Belette, which was capable of sinking the Black Pearl without having to use the glowy thing and could probably have stopped the whole invasion by itself if it had been there. The clip showing gunports opening is obviously made up and not based on any game ship, none of which have moving gunports.

But the real problem is that you're trying to piece together parts of a storyline which was rushed (Nathaniel's), plus fragments of a storyline which was barely started (Danielle's), and come up with a coherent overall story when there probably isn't one.

 

[Lonious]

Third man in Greenford: no information is available. Possibly an assassin from Silehard, possibly Alistair Garcilaso's boatswain, possibly someone completely different. The only mention of him is the soldier's report that he tried to steal a little boat and was found in possession of the idol, presumably taken from Giraldo Figuiera.

According to the part of "Danielle_dialog.h" where she's reading Raoul Rheims' diary, Giraldo was Raoul's navigator.

From "Alistair Garcilaso_dialog.h":

The reason that Giraldo had the idol, if Danielle is to be believed, is that she gave it to him. There is no evidence that he was involved in taking it from the Sirena in the first place.

Putting all that together, Danielle killed Alistair's boatswain before she went to Alistair and forced him to give her the idol. At some point she gave it to Giraldo, with whom she may have been having an affair according to Greenford tavern keeper Simon Hanpool:She later returned to Greenford to retrieve the idol and possibly found that someone else (the third man) had got there first. Perhaps the third man killed Giraldo and took the idol, only to then be arrested; meanwhile Danielle walked in on the crime scene, got blood on her boots, was also arrested, and subsequently escaped. Or perhaps the third man was Giraldo's new accomplice, to whom he gave the idol; then Danielle arrived, got angry, and killed Giraldo; then both Danielle and the third man were arrested, and Danielle escaped.

This seems possible if the murdered boatswain was separate from Giraldo. At first, I thought the two were the same - Giraldo was Rheims' navigator but caught malaria and had to be left on either Greenford or Quebradas Costillas (where Rheims moored for repairs), and possibly later he enlisted in Alistair's fleet and joined the attack on the Sirena, taking the idol for himself and settling back in Greenford. Then at some point he got in an affair with Danielle, and probably slept in the same house. Then one night an attacker (likely Silehard's agent) kills Giraldo for the idol, runs off to a nearby boat with it, with Danielle waking up to find the murdered Giraldo, wetting her boots with his blood.

I think there's reason to suspect that Danielle was not responsible for Giraldo's murder. If she was the one that killed Giraldo, and took the idol from him, the third guy would certainly not have ran off with it, since Danielle was a competent fighter. He'd have to kill her for it or die trying. It's possible that he killed Giraldo while he was sleeping, and sneaked out of his house secretly. The only thing we'd have to guess is whether Giraldo and Alistair's boatswain are the same person.

I know it's possible that Danielle was the one that gave it to Giraldo, going by her dialog. But she's not really a reliable source since at one point in the game she claims to have sold her ship for one of the clay tablets and at the next moment says both of them were stolen. Quite confusing.

In any case, there's apparently no clear hint as to what the developers had in mind.

There is no evidence that Raoul was ever in command of anything, let alone the biggest ship in the English fleet.

Well, he did have a ship I believe, since some unused dialog files indicate he was tasked to find out the treasure by Silehard early on and had to stop by Quebradas Costillas for repairs after a storm. This, alongside Ewan's rumor of a "powerful frigate" with a captain receiving secret orders from Silehard, led me to entertain the possibility that he was given charge of the manowar. Then again, that does sound overkill for what appears to be a normal mercenary captain.

The invasion video is the French fleet attacking Oxbay. There were no ships defending, certainly not Belette, which was capable of sinking the Black Pearl without having to use the glowy thing and could probably have stopped the whole invasion by itself if it had been there. The clip showing gunports opening is obviously made up and not based on any game ship, none of which have moving gunports.

Upon analyzing the video angles, it seems to me that the big ship was indeed fighting the French fleet.

Here we have the big ship preparing to fire at its port side:

Spoiler

This ship is headed towards the same direction Victory is facing - opposite to where the French ships are headed. So it doesn't look like part of the French fleet. Maybe it came from Oxbay.

Here's a fleet of ships in the next shot, presumably the French ships, receiving fire from their port side.

Spoiler

Oxbay appears to be on their starboard/right side, so it couldn't have been the fort firing on them. It's either an English warship from the port side, or the big ship in the previous shot.

And the Oxbay fort is indeed on their starboard - it wouldn't have been the one firing them, as the cannon fire was coming from the port side. Furthermore, the narrator states, "the French ships caught the fort's gun crews napping...."

Spoiler

So, it appears from this scene that there was something firing on the fleet, and it wasn't the fort. It would have been an English ship, and considering that the big ship from the previous shot is shown firing at the place where the fleet would have been, it's most likely the one attacking them. Since it has three gun decks, maybe it's the Belette, but then again it does look just a little different from it...

So, it could be just a generic battleship, or perhaps an entirely different ship type not encountered in the game, like a 2nd rate. If it's Belette, maybe she couldn't aim well enough, or was called to Redmond on urgent orders, or was too slow to stop the invasion. Whatever the case, the British had one big ship, which failed to defend the town.

Hmm. Maybe I'm overthinking all this. Though I certainly had fun doing these speculations.

But the real problem is that you're trying to piece together parts of a storyline which was rushed (Nathaniel's), plus fragments of a storyline which was barely started (Danielle's), and come up with a coherent overall story when there probably isn't one.

True...paradoxically, it makes everything more interesting now that I'm forced to do all the detective guesswork.

I had also this little idea for the Build Mod, where on Sea Dog/Swashbuckler difficulty on the Nathaniel storyline you actually encounter an invading squadron after leaving the port and have to escape instead of the video showing up...I know this is gonna require a lot of work so I'm just content with it as a fantasy.

 

[Grey Roger]

This seems possible if the murdered boatswain was separate from Giraldo. At first, I thought the two were the same - Giraldo was Rheims' navigator but caught malaria and had to be left on either Greenford or Quebradas Costillas (where Rheims moored for repairs), and possibly later he enlisted in Alistair's fleet and joined the attack on the Sirena, taking the idol for himself and settling back in Greenford.

That doesn't work with Alistair's dialog. He captured the Sirena. Then, having previously killed his boatswain, Danielle showed up and took the idol from Alistair.

I think there's reason to suspect that Danielle was not responsible for Giraldo's murder. If she was the one that killed Giraldo, and took the idol from him, the third guy would certainly not have ran off with it, since Danielle was a competent fighter. He'd have to kill her for it or die trying. It's possible that he killed Giraldo while he was sleeping, and sneaked out of his house secretly. The only thing we'd have to guess is whether Giraldo and Alistair's boatswain are the same person.

It's also possible that while Danielle was sleeping, Giraldo was giving the idol to his accomplice. Danielle woke up and killed Giraldo, just in time for the soldiers to show up and arrest her. Meanwhile another soldier arrested the accomplice trying to get to his boat.

I know it's possible that Danielle was the one that gave it to Giraldo, going by her dialog. But she's not really a reliable source since at one point in the game she claims to have sold her ship for one of the clay tablets and at the next moment says both of them were stolen. Quite confusing.

Not if Danielle is the one who killed Giraldo. She's hardly going to tell you that if she wants you to find the idol and then rejoin her!

Well, he did have a ship I believe, since some unused dialog files indicate he was tasked to find out the treasure by Silehard early on and had to stop by Quebradas Costillas for repairs after a storm.

My mistake. I was confusing Raoul and his navigator. Raoul did, of course, have a ship. Probably not the Belette, though. Because if I had the Belette and I found out Silehard was trying to have me killed, I'd go and visit Silehard - and not by sneaking though the back door to the bedroom!

Here we have the big ship preparing to fire at its starboard side:

Note the red and yellow colour scheme. Compare to the red and yellow colour scheme of a battleship, versus the black and white scheme of the Belette. Then look at the arrangement of the guns - one full row along the yellow, a half row along the red, and another partial row near the top. Now look again at a battleship and see if it has a similar arrangement.

Here's a fleet of ships in the next shot, presumably the French ships, receiving fire from their port side.

Or receiving inaccurate fire from the starboard side, some of which has overshot.

And the Oxbay fort is indeed on their starboard - it wouldn't have been the one firing them, as the cannon fire was coming from the port side. Furthermore, the narrator states, "the French ships caught the fort's gun crews napping...."

That just means they weren't fully alert and able to mount a proper defence. It doesn't mean they never got any shots off at all.

So, it could be just a generic battleship, or perhaps an entirely different ship type not encountered in the game, like a 2nd rate. If it's Belette, maybe she couldn't aim well enough, or was called to Redmond on urgent orders, or was too slow to stop the invasion. Whatever the case, the British had one big ship, which failed to defend the town.

Setting aside that I still disagree that the British had anything near Oxbay bigger than a sloop, we can be certain that the Belette wasn't there.

Well, when the French captured Oxbay, the captain of the frigate received a secret order direct from Governor Silehard. The following day, the frigate put out to sea, and the governor ended up having to commandeer civilian ships to fend off the French fleet!

That "frigate", which Ewan also called "the most powerful ship in the fleet", was the Belette. She can hardly have put to sea the day after the attack on Oxbay if she was already sailing near Oxbay! Besides, Silehard learns of the invasion when you tell him. If he then gives a direct order to the captain of the Belette, then she has to be at Redmond.

 

[Lonious]

That doesn't work with Alistair's dialog. He captured the Sirena. Then, having previously killed his boatswain, Danielle showed up and took the idol from Alistair.

Wait, I'm a little confused. Danielle was the one said to have killed Alistair's boatswain. My theory is that Giraldo is in fact Alistair's boatswain...are you saying that Giraldo killed Alistair's boatswain?

So, I thought Giraldo was Alistair's boatswain, because both Alistair and Simon mention a woman who killed a guy for an idol, I just assumed both were the same person. There's certainly room for Giraldo to have taken part in the Sirena's capture. You suggest that the boatswain was a different person, one whom Danielle killed and took the idol from, before she gave it to Giraldo who was in turn either killed by the third guy, or killed by Danielle when he gave it to the third guy. Well, both theories are technically possible.

It's also possible that while Danielle was sleeping, Giraldo was giving the idol to his accomplice. Danielle woke up and killed Giraldo, just in time for the soldiers to show up and arrest her. Meanwhile another soldier arrested the accomplice trying to get to his boat.

True, that's certainly possible, though I wonder why Giraldo would want someone else to take such a valuable item...

My mistake. I was confusing Raoul and his navigator. Raoul did, of course, have a ship. Probably not the Belette, though. Because if I had the Belette and I found out Silehard was trying to have me killed, I'd go and visit Silehard - and not by sneaking though the back door to the bedroom!

True.

Or, Raoul was made to command the Belette, but when he set foot on land, someone shot him and another guy sailed the ship to Redmond. But yeah, it's probably a different unrelated ship. It'd be hilarious if Rheims was actually in charge of it though.

Note the red and yellow colour scheme. Compare to the red and yellow colour scheme of a battleship, versus the black and white scheme of the Belette. Then look at the arrangement of the guns - one full row along the yellow, a half row along the red, and another partial row near the top. Now look again at a battleship and see if it has a similar arrangement.

The Belette is actually painted red and "bright red". The battleship is half red, half yellow - the ship in the video is red, with a yellow stripe in the middle, and red at the bottom. It seems to match neither exactly.

Or receiving inaccurate fire from the starboard side, some of which has overshot.

The video shows the balls flying from the port side.

invasionfire

That "frigate", which Ewan also called "the most powerful ship in the fleet", was the Belette. She can hardly have put to sea the day after the attack on Oxbay if she was already sailing near Oxbay! Besides, Silehard learns of the invasion when you tell him. If he then gives a direct order to the captain of the Belette, then she has to be at Redmond.

It could be that when he said "when the French captured Oxbay" he didn't necessarily mean the exact day they sieged the fort, it could've been some days later. So during this time the Belette could have sailed to Redmond from Oxbay, and then put to sea afterwards.

Well, these are all just possibilities. It's just a fan theory of mine. But what seems apparent to me is that the big ship seemed to belong to the British, doesn't resemble any ship in the game, and seemed to be firing on the French ships.

 

[Grey Roger]

Wait, I'm a little confused. Danielle was the one said to have killed Alistair's boatswain. My theory is that Giraldo is in fact Alistair's boatswain...are you saying that Giraldo killed Alistair's boatswain?

No, Alistair says that Danielle killed his boatswain:

Then this crazy lass who killed my bos'n shows up, looking for one of these cursed idols.

So this was before the events in Greenford. If we believe Danielle and she gave the idol to Giraldo, then she must have done it after she took the idol from Alistair. If we don't believe her, and instead believe that she killed Giraldo to get the idol, then it must still have been after she killed Alistair's boatswain because she knows that the idol was last seen at Greenford shortly before the mysterious third man ran off with the idol while Danielle was being arrested. She may not know that the third man was also arrested and the idol taken by the prison commander. In any case, as far as she's concerned, the idol was last seen at Greenford, so that's where she sends you.

The Belette is actually painted red and "bright red". The battleship is half red, half yellow - the ship in the video is red, with a yellow stripe in the middle, and red at the bottom. It seems to match neither exactly.

The ship in the video certainly does not match either the man of war or the battleship because the video shows it opening its gunports, which no ship in the game is capable of doing. However, the man of war - Belette - has reddish-brown top and bottom, with black and cream stripes along the main gun ports. The battleship has a red hull with a yellow stripe along the main gun ports, some more gun ports on the red hull above the yellow stripe, and a few more on the quarterdeck.

Also notice how the gun ports on the man of war don't extend all the way back to the stern; there are a lot of windows on the side. The battleship has no such windows. Neither does the ship in the video. (Screenshots from GM Viewer looking at the stock game ship hull models.)

The video shows the balls flying from the port side.

True. That's the fort firing at the French ships. Port Oxbay is in a bay:

The island is to both port and starboard of the attacking ships. The piece of land you see in that part of the video isn't the part with the fort. The fort is to the right of the picture from the video, out of sight, and to port of the French ships. And that's why the battleship is seen opening its port gun ports. (Screenshot from the modded game, in which Oxbay island is renamed Barbados but is still the same island model. The modded game allows you to control a free camera, so I moved it to a high view over the port.)

However, it is possible that the Belette was indeed involved in the attack on Oxbay. Just not the Belette you're thinking of. If I remember correctly, one of the French ships is also named Belette. You won't be able to see this during the initial attack, but you have to get past the same French squadron when you escape with Rabel Yverneau's ship later in the story - check the names of the ships then...

 

[Lonious]

No, Alistair says that Danielle killed his boatswain:So this was before the events in Greenford. If we believe
The ship in the video certainly does not match either the man of war or the battleship because the video shows it opening its gunports, which no ship in the game is capable of doing.

I think it's just one of those times when a game's cutscenes look a little different from the gameplay for more dramatic effect.

True. That's the fort firing at the French ships. Port Oxbay is in a bay:
View attachment 39608
The island is to both port and starboard of the attacking ships. The piece of land you see in that part of the video isn't the part with the fort. The fort is to the right of the picture from the video, out of sight, and to port of the French ships. And that's why the battleship is seen opening its port gun ports.

Well, from this shot the fort appears to be to the right of the ships, not to their left. Something to their left was firing at them. Though I suppose it could just be a change of angle when they got closer to the fort.

Plus, the big ship was pointed away from the bay, not towards it, unlike the French ships. If it's not a defending ship, then it's one of the French ones but approaching at a different angle.

However, it is possible that the Belette was indeed involved in the attack on Oxbay. Just not the Belette you're thinking of. If I remember correctly, one of the French ships is also named Belette. You won't be able to see this during the initial attack, but you have to get past the same French squadron when you escape with Rabel Yverneau's ship later in the story - check the names of the ships then...

Yeahp. I was confused at first when I first played the game and thought the Belette of Silehard was a battleship. After all, it looked like one. Turns out they're different ships.

 

[Grey Roger]

Well, from this shot the fort appears to be to the right of the ships, not to their left. Something to their left was firing at them. Though I suppose it could just be a change of angle when they got closer to the fort.

Look again at that shot and pay attention to the bowsprits. It's difficult to be sure as they're obscured by fog or cannon smoke, but either the ships are sailing away from you, meaning the fort is to their left; or they're sailing towards you, straight at the fort. Either would make sense - one way is the same way they were sailing during the bombardment, the other is them closing to land troops after knocking out the fort's guns.

Plus, the big ship was pointed away from the bay, not towards it, unlike the French ships. If it's not a defending ship, then it's one of the French ones but approaching at a different angle.

The big ship is sailing across the bay. The small ship in front of it is sailing across the big ship's bow and out of the bay. I suspect there is some artistic licence with that clip, which is not from gameplay as the ship is not a game ship. Precise angling of the ships relative to the island is less important than clearly showing the small ship heading for open sea while the big ship opens its gun ports ready for the assault on the fort. (Or perhaps the big ship originally tries to chase the small one, then the captain realises that (a) he can't catch it and (b) he has a more important target to engage which isn't going anywhere.)

If you pay this sort of attention to films, you'll find a lot of similar errors. In fact, there's been at least one TV series whose entire purpose is to spot the many mistakes in films. Consider this one of them.