Solved Ship Cannons "Realistic" Statistics

[lucianblack]

Before I've posted about noticing the ship's Cannon types and Max Caliber's, but now I want to expand on that. I'm of mind to go through the entire Ships_init.c file and try to more accurately correct some of the statistics. Such as:

refShip.Cannon = CANNON_TYPE_CARRONADE_LBS24;
refShip.MaxCaliber = 9;

I believe it was Pieter who told me the Carronade's count for half the max caliber so this code should be more like CANNON_TYPE_CARRONADE_LBS18; ... (this ship is in reference to the privateer "PiratBrig50" line 2840 (ish). Looking up realistic statistics for the cannons, it seems they were measured completely different than how the game recognizes them as "4lb, 6lb, 8lb" etc etc so I couldn't get any help there. There are at least 3 things I was curious about though that I might get help with:

• In the beginning of the script are values with each faction that may/may not affect the Max Caliber?

This example is with England (line 16-ish) and United States (line 82-ish):

//English
shipstatsmult.n0.MaxCaliber    =    1.00;
//United States
shipstatsmult.n6.MaxCaliber    =    1.50;

Do these affect the Max Caliber? If so then apparently they don't matter because all but the U.S. has a value of 1.00; so would need to affect the MaxCaliber on the ships themselves anyways.

• Max allowances of Calibers.

In most (if not all) cases all the ships are setup to match the max caliber.... so if there is no additional variables or scripts that affect these values, then would it be safe to assume to use best judgement to make these values a little more lenient? Instead of being stuck with the cannons you're given, to give it additional MaxCaliber (but not too extreme... such as a Caravel with 4lb-ers given the chance to put 24lb-ers seems unlikely)

• The "Other" Ships such as the Black Pearl, Flying Dutchman, Queen Anne's Revenge, etc etc

I also noticed the Cursed Pearl has 24lb-ers but all the lesser versions (as the 1st code posted above) they're all set for 18LBS in both current and MaxCaliber... Assuming still all the above information is correct and they're not allowed an increase/decrease in variable to upgrade... would MaxCaliber = 24; but leaving the current cannons at 18, be a better compromise?
===================================

Just asking before I start modifying/uploading the Ships_init.c file and get shot down Also in case there IS a script or something somewhere that modifies the MaxCaliber that I'm not seeing, and all this extra editing is unecessary. But to me some (like the 1st code snippet) needs fixin' and I don't mind going through the file and fix up the rest of the ships as well ^_^ Some I see don't need fixing (like the first Caravel. Seems to me realistically a 4lb-er currently and 4lb max seems good enough for that tiny ship.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

POTC ships used to be grossly overgunned like COAS is, but over time the size of the guns, especially on the small ships, has been reduced to something more believable. The problem was that the big ships were given their proper guns and then found themselves outgunned by rowboats. Bottom line, you want big guns get a big ship.

 

[Armada]

This example is with England (line 16-ish) and United States (line 82-ish):

//English
shipstatsmult.n0.MaxCaliber    =    1.00;
//United States
shipstatsmult.n6.MaxCaliber    =    1.50;

This reminds me: just why does the US have a higher max calibre than everyone else? Does anyone know the reasoning behind it?
Doesn't it lead to some ships being over-gunned?

 

[lucianblack]

POTC ships used to be grossly overgunned like COAS is, but over time the size of the guns, especially on the small ships, has been reduced to something more believable. The problem was that the big ships were given their proper guns and then found themselves outgunned by rowboats. Bottom line, you want big guns get a big ship.

Meaning you don't want the players to have the option to upgrade their current ship, but rather take a bigger one if they want bigger guns? I can accept that... but what of the other situation(s) though? Like the Black Pearl/Wicked Wench/Cursed Pearl? They're all technically the same ship, so if the cursed pearl already has the 24lb-ers but all the other "downgrades" have 18s... wouldn't it be plausable to have the 24lb-ers for MaxCaliber then? And the 1st code snipper where the carronade cannons don't really match up with the MaxCaliber, unless the MaxCaliber was raised to 12, or lower the cannon types down to 18 (as Pieter suggested to me eariler)?

This reminds me: just why does the US have a higher max calibre than everyone else? Does anyone know the reasoning behind it?
Doesn't it lead to some ships being over-gunned?

Because... 'MURICA!

 

[Hylie Pistof]

I don't think you appreciate just how heavy these cannons are. If you upgrade those little brigs like you want to they would be so overloaded and top heavy that they would be slow and likely to capsize. This chart is for 16th century cannons but it roughly applies to later centuries also. Notice that a 6 pound saker weighs 1,400 lbs while a 8 pound demi culverin weighs 3,400 lbs. That is why the bigger guns are on bigger ships. And yes, they did capsize. The Vassa never made it out of the harbor before capsizing on her maiden voyage.
https://photos-3.dropbox.com/t/0/AA...rwkknGG6sn7DOqKcEkyXOaCGVSRBNVk?size=1280x960

The Black Pearl is a fantasy ship and as such the normal rules do not apply. The Wicked Wench is supposed to be a real ship and therefore has normal size guns for her size and also HP.

Hmm. The only thing wrong with that critter is there is no Bible in its hand.

"When Fascism comes to America it will be draped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

 

[lucianblack]

Oh I wasn't arguing. If you guys(and gals) had a reason to put it that way I'm all for it

The Black Pearl is a fantasy ship and as such the normal rules do not apply. The Wicked Wench is supposed to be a real ship and therefore has normal size guns for her size and also HP.s

Ah okay gotchya. So... the file doesn't really need any tinkering then... heh... what about the:

refShip.Cannon = CANNON_TYPE_CARRONADE_LBS24;
refShip.MaxCaliber = 9;

most of the other ships have cannon type carronade_LBS18 with a MaxCaliber of 9. but I also found one with LBS18, to a MaxCaliber of 6... so are the CARRONADE's 2x or 3x max caliber? or can be either? if so then that code snippet makes sense (since 3x 9 = 27, not like everybody knew that right? ) But don't think there's a LBS27 so 24 makes sense.. I'm sorry I"m kinda ranting lol Just trying to get a clear sense of things, and thankfully everything you've explained so far makes sense

 

[Hylie Pistof]

That is most likely a "special" ship. The file has been tinkered with a lot with this person doing something and that person changing it back.

The carronades should be 2X the long guns.

 

[lucianblack]

Then I'm going to do a favor and not tinker with it some more I might clean it up a bit though.... the non straightness of the lines gets my Scripting OCD twitching I swear on some games I spend more time "fluffing" up the scripts than I do writing them >.>

 

[KillPhil]

I think you dont understand the meaning of the two codelines right. The first tells the game which cannons can be installed on the shipyard and which not. The 2nd line tells the game with which cannons the ship is equipped by default. This CAN override the first line, but you still cant buy them (again) on the shipyard.
The maxcaliber stats for the ships are quite good, but since there was a code which overwrote the default-cannon-code we didnt match all of the 2nd code lines.

 

[lucianblack]

Well that's what I'm trying to understand, the meaning of the codelines I'm kinda just trying to jump in here where as other scripts I've worked on, I knew from the base script -> upwards, knowing all the commands, variables, functions, and constants beforehand... here I'm like a blind ferret trying to throw a Disney World Parade or something lol (hell of an analogy if I do say so myself).

 

[Pieter Boelen]

On the subject of national modifiers, I'd expect Dutch design ships to be better trading vessels and therefore have a larger cargo hold or something.
But that does not seem to be the case. In fact, apart from a slightly higher speed, they seem to be WORSE than average. That's not fair either.

As I see it, each national design should be balanced vs. the average. If they're better at some counts, they should be worse on other counts.
So what design you prefer should be personal preference and not one being better than the other.

Does anyone know what the ship Weight value does? Makes the ship heavier, I presume?
What does that affect? Maximum speed? That's what the SpeedRate is for, right?
And the acceleration is defined elsewhere too.

This reminds me: just why does the US have a higher max calibre than everyone else? Does anyone know the reasoning behind it?
Doesn't it lead to some ships being over-gunned?

No clue; can't remember when it was added. I don't mind them being able to carry bigger guns; you still have to pay for them.
However, those US design ships can carry bigger cannons AND are faster. The only "drawback" is slightly increased price.
But on the whole, they seem to be better than any other design ship, which isn't quite fair, is it?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

The Black Pearl is a fantasy ship and as such the normal rules do not apply. The Wicked Wench is supposed to be a real ship and therefore has normal size guns for her size and also HP.

There are three different Black Pearls though: The one before being cursed, the cursed one and the one after being cursed.
The uncursed ones should be fairly normal on their stats, because you get them as player ships during the Jack Sparrow storyline.
The cursed one, however, is only ever an enemy ship at the end of the Standard storyline and I think also under Barbossa's command in Jack Sparrow.
But you don't get her yourself. So to make her a more formidable foe, she's got vastly more HP and bigger cannons.

 

[Armada]

On the subject of national modifiers, I'd expect Dutch design ships to be better trading vessels and therefore have a larger cargo hold or something.
But that does not seem to be the case. In fact, apart from a slightly higher speed, they seem to be WORSE than average. That's not fair either.

As I see it, each national design should be balanced vs. the average. If they're better at some counts, they should be worse on other counts.
So what design you prefer should be personal preference and not one being better than the other.
[...]
No clue; can't remember when it was added. I don't mind them being able to carry bigger guns; you still have to pay for them.
However, those US design ships can carry bigger cannons AND are faster. The only "drawback" is slightly increased price.
But on the whole, they seem to be better than any other design ship, which isn't quite fair, is it?

Seems we should rethink some of these modifiers, then. Here are some thoughts on each nation, with some proposed 'defining' characteristics in bold:

- English ships are currently faster, more manoeuvrable and stronger, but have a higher min/lower max crew and are the most expensive.
Perhaps they should lose the manoeuvrability boost and increase the HP boost to make them the strongest ships.

- French ships have less capacity and a higher speed. Nothing particularly special about that.
Maybe giving them the highest max crew of all the nations would make them more distinctive, with an increased price to match.

- Spanish ships have a higher max crew and HP and the highest capacity, but also weigh more and have the lowest speed and turn rates.
Seems fair to me, though a price increase might be needed.

- Pirate ships have the highest speed and turn rates and weigh less, but have a lower capacity and HP, and are more expensive.
I would actually argue that they should be the cheapest ships, but maybe reduce the speed boost, reduce the max crew and increase the min crew to compensate.

- Dutch ships have a higher speed rate and weigh less, but have a lower max crew and HP.
They should probably keep the speed boost, but have a decent capacity increase, average weight and HP, and a lower turn rate and even lower max crew.
This would make them the most versatile vessels, especially as merchants.

- Portuguese ships have a higher max crew and turn rate, but also weigh more and have less HP.
I would increase the turn rate to make them the most manoeuvrable ships, while maintaining an average price.

- US ships have a higher max calibre, speed rate and HP, with a higher price.
I think we should do away with the calibre boost, and instead increase the speed rate to make them the fastest ships.

What do you reckon? Anything to add or change?

Does anyone know what the ship Weight value does? Makes the ship heavier, I presume?
What does that affect? Maximum speed? That's what the SpeedRate is for, right?
And the acceleration is defined elsewhere too.

Maybe it affects how low the ship sits in the water when its holds are full?

 

[KillPhil]

1. Armada: Very good ideas , I can quickly do these changes if everyone agrees

2. I think the weight does also affect the turning speed (not rate) and acceleration and braking of the ship, but I'm not 100% sure about that.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

If you are talking about refship.weight, that reflects inertia. Bigger numbers give slower reactions and smaller numbers give faster reactions.

The ones that really change a ships "personality" are these:

refShip.WaterLine = 0.0;
refShip.SpeedDependWeight = 0.3;
refShip.SubSeaDependWeight = 0.9;
refShip.TurnDependWeight = 0.8;
These are the Revenge stats.

I messed with these on the galleons to give each type a distinct personality. Probably went a bit too far with the Spanish Treasure Galleon as on a long run with full holds it turns out to be the fastest even though it is the slowest empty.

 

[Armada]

1. Armada: Very good ideas , I can quickly do these changes if everyone agrees

We ought to discuss exact values to use first, but I'd like to hear Pieter's opinions before that.

If you are talking about refship.weight, that reflects inertia. Bigger numbers give slower reactions and smaller numbers give faster reactions.

The ones that really change a ships "personality" are these:

refShip.WaterLine = 0.0;
refShip.SpeedDependWeight = 0.3;
refShip.SubSeaDependWeight = 0.9;
refShip.TurnDependWeight = 0.8;
These are the Revenge stats.

Ah, that makes sense. The "DependWeight" should have given it away.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Seems we should rethink some of these modifiers, then. Here are some thoughts on each nation, with some proposed 'defining' characteristics in bold:

Definitely a good idea to rethink them. Question though: When a national design is BETTER at one thing, should it be sort-of equally WORSE at something else?
If they are only better, then ships without national design are at a disadvantage. Not that there are many of those around though....

- Pirate ships have the highest speed and turn rates and weigh less, but have a lower capacity and HP, and are more expensive.
I would actually argue that they should be the cheapest ships, but maybe reduce the speed boost, reduce the max crew and increase the min crew to compensate.

Wouldn't pirates mainly be interested in boarding enemies? If so, wouldn't they want to cram as much crew into there as possible?
I'd expect them to be faster, more manoeuvrable and with a higher max crew, but perhaps less HP and definitely less capacity.
Because they are so good at pirating, the pirate shipyards won't sell them unless you are a pirate yourself.

- US ships have a higher max calibre, speed rate and HP, with a higher price.
I think we should do away with the calibre boost, and instead increase the speed rate to make them the fastest ships.

It would be a shame to have code in place that allows national designs to influence the MaxCaliber and not use it. Defeats the purpose of having that code in the first place.
That isn't an excuse though; if it is not a good feature to have, we shouldn't have it. But perhaps we could decrease the MaxCaliber on one of the national designs instead?

 

[Armada]

Definitely a good idea to rethink them. Question though: When a national design is BETTER at one thing, should it be sort-of equally WORSE at something else?
If they are only better, then ships without national design are at a disadvantage. Not that there are many of those around though....

I kind of tried to include pros and cons for each of the nations above, though the US could probably use at least one more downside now that you mention it.
Are there any other nations that you think would have an unfair advantage/disadvantage based on the above?

Wouldn't pirates mainly be interested in boarding enemies? If so, wouldn't they want to cram as much crew into there as possible?
I'd expect them to be faster, more manoeuvrable and with a higher max crew, but perhaps less HP and definitely less capacity.
Because they are so good at pirating, the pirate shipyards won't sell them unless you are a pirate yourself.

So maybe they could have the following modifiers?

    //Pirate
    shipstatsmult.n3.MaxCaliber    =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n3.Weight        =    0.95;
    shipstatsmult.n3.Capacity    =    0.80;
    shipstatsmult.n3.MaxCrew    =    1.05;
    shipstatsmult.n3.MinCrew    =    1.10;
    shipstatsmult.n3.SpeedRate    =    1.05;
    shipstatsmult.n3.TurnRate    =    1.10;
    shipstatsmult.n3.Price        =    0.95;
    shipstatsmult.n3.HP            =    0.80;

This way they could have more crew for boarding, countered by a higher min requirement to sail the ship because of a lack of navy discipline.

It would be a shame to have code in place that allows national designs to influence the MaxCaliber and not use it. Defeats the purpose of having that code in the first place.
That isn't an excuse though; if it is not a good feature to have, we shouldn't have it. But perhaps we could decrease the MaxCaliber on one of the national designs instead?

To be honest, I don't think it's a useful feature. The max calibre should be determined entirely by the individual ships; some of them just weren't built to carry higher calibres.
Decreasing it would probably give a nation a significant disadvantage, so that might be worth avoiding.
The only possible use I could think of is to decrease it for the pirates (maybe the highest calibres are harder to come by, for them), but that would no doubt be an unpopular change.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I kind of tried to include pros and cons for each of the nations above, though the US could probably use at least one more downside now that you mention it.
Are there any other nations that you think would have an unfair advantage/disadvantage based on the above?

Nothing that springs to mind at the moment.

So maybe they could have the following modifiers?

    //Pirate
    shipstatsmult.n3.MaxCaliber    =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n3.Weight        =    0.95;
    shipstatsmult.n3.Capacity    =    0.80;
    shipstatsmult.n3.MaxCrew    =    1.05;
    shipstatsmult.n3.MinCrew    =    1.10;
    shipstatsmult.n3.SpeedRate    =    1.05;
    shipstatsmult.n3.TurnRate    =    1.10;
    shipstatsmult.n3.Price        =    0.95;
    shipstatsmult.n3.HP            =    0.80;

This way they could have more crew for boarding, countered by a higher min requirement to sail the ship because of a lack of navy discipline.

Sound about right. But with the pirates getting more MaxCrew, what about you suggesting something similar for France?

To be honest, I don't think it's a useful feature. The max calibre should be determined entirely by the individual ships; some of them just weren't built to carry higher calibres.
Decreasing it would probably give a nation a significant disadvantage, so that might be worth avoiding.

Well, to be fair, that feature was in the code for a long time and was never used until we added the USA anyway.

The only possible use I could think of is to decrease it for the pirates (maybe the highest calibres are harder to come by, for them), but that would no doubt be an unpopular change.

True, that. But perhaps if their MaxCrew and SpeedRate/TurnRate can be made higher enough to compensate for it?
Not necessary though, so we could just go with the simple solution of MaxCaliber not being influenced by anything.

 

[KillPhil]

Hm maybe a larger caliber could mean MUCH more weight?
Indeed pirates didn't used cannons that often in reality -> see the wikipedia entry for that,
pirates did try to board a ship from behind, where they couldn't hit or at least were a very difficult target, with small and fast ships. So if we decrease their maximum caliber, we should increase the speed, and not only by .05.. more by .20 or so..
but to be honest, this would not really make sense.. too bad we can't tell the game that pirates don't have so much gunpowder like other nations, because that was the main reason..