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Slavery mod?

C

Cpt Fabris

Landlubber
Several years ago I seem to remember there being a mod that introduced slavery into POTC. After checking posts on this forum I note that it was largely pulled due to questions of the ethics of having such an element in an otherwise 'fun' and lighthearted game.

I was giving the topic some thought last night, and wonder whether the ethical problems might be covered either by tinkering with that mod or making a new one to include the following 'nice' elements:

1. Slaves WOULD NOT be tradable or be visible as 'cargo'. Doesn't matter how you try to justify it, it is reprehensible to objectify people and treat them as a commodity. And for once I don't care about realism or historical accuracy.

2. As the build/post-build game was set in 1690s, only Spain would be allowed to have slavers operating in the caribbean (prior to the grant of the Asiento other colonial powers weren't permitted to trade slaves in the west indies...or so I read).
Since slavers would have a lot of money, there would clearly be financial benefits in targetting their ships on trade routes between say Isla Muelle or Santo Domingo (in the new islands).
NB. This isn't meant to be an anti-spanish idea...

3. As the slave trade was highly profitable, the authorities could issue instructions or letters of marque to specifically request players as pirates target and disrupt the slavers business.

4. Upon capturing a ship you could free the slaves and take some as crew on your ship, as is known to have occurred.

5. As historical accounts show pirates raiding the slave trading stations/fortresses, then perhaps on some islands have either a fort or enclosure like the smuggler's village or mine area on Oxbay as a slavers town/stronghold for players to raid, free the slaves and take the money from the slavers.

6. You could randomly encounter freed/escaped slaves in the jungles etc of islands who could join your ship as officers or crew.

7. You could receive quests to rescue a particular slave (say a man asks you to rescue and free his wife or child). Which whilst not paying money might result in a big bonus to reputation, as an alternative way of getting back from the Horror of the High Seas etc type thing, but without having to rescue untold maidens from muggers/rapists.

OK, I'm not suggesting I'd know how to do any of this, but I wonder whether anyone else would, or would at least be able to comment on the feasibility of any of the above ideas, and suggest how it might be done...providing its not considered superfluous or just plain wrong to even consider it.
 
and the Dutch traded slaves. That was i think one of their best ways to make money. And luxemax is right about that the were cargo. Maybe you could put the slaves below deck, just like, in stead of the captured captains. And that you could sell the captured seaman as slaves.
 
The feature would have to include a trade off in rep and relations. For example, pretty much all of the nations and pirates would attack on sight while transporting slaves. If spotted by a friendly nation, you would lose all held letters of marquee as well (and all land earned). Only smugglers should be allowed to do the trading.
This is kind of a dark idea, but it does show potential. Might be a bit too offensive though.
 
Yes I know slaves were treated as commodities and therefore were a major feature in trade in the period, but as I said, whilst originally there was a mod that included such a thing, not surprisingly it was ditched or abandoned due partly to the controversy and partly because slavery simply isn't 'fun' in a game anyway you look at it.

I think I mislabelled this thread...manumission mod would have been a more accurate title in keeping with my thoughts.
 
One of the chief mistakes of modern historians is to examine history through the eyes of today's morality. Trade was what it was back then, even if it involved human trafficking. It was a reality. And to avoid any discussion of it is to do a tremendous disservice to history. Yes, people traded fellow humans as they would cattle. They also shat out of their windows into the street and performed major surgery without anesthetics. Where does one draw the line? Either look at all of it, nasty bits included, or whitewash the whole thing in Disneyesque fashion.
 
Slavery was against Spanish law. So it could not be something they could do in the game. Even if it is in terms of manumission I think it should be avoided.
 
Contraband was also forbidden, and it's something that it's in the game...

I think the best idea for a 'slavery mod' its to<b> let the player choose</b> whether it's going to profit with slaves (legal or illegal) or if he (or she) it's gonna fight the dealers of human beings.

But in those days slavery was a reality, like it is <i>today</i>.
<a href="http://www.flanders-image.com/index.php?col=/news&doc=050406_Matrioshki_goes_international" target="_blank">http://www.flanders-image.com/index.php?co...s_international</a>
 
Adding slavery to the game may seem offensive, as a mater of fact the concept of slavery offends me, but ignoring the subject completely as the historic reality it was and still is as Arconthe said, would be just criminal and unfair to the african people and their descendants, we all have to remember that they built this new world.

Erasing the ugly parts of history is the first step torwards repeating them, so I think the slavery/manumision mod must be included.

Now a small lesson of history: The laws on slavery and contraband were a joke, everyone did contraband during the colonial era and unlike Sid Meier wants us to beleive even the big spanish cities did that kind of trade, those cities were also bases for french privateers until the begining of the 19th century, interesting huh <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />
 
Hmm, nice little debate developing here on the pros and cons of 'revisionist history' in gaming. For my part, in response to comments that slavery was rife during the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries (the core buccaneer/freebooter/pirate eras) and that it is foolish or objectionable to try and ignore or forget this I'd say generally I agree. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a David Irving type historical revisionist.
I'll apologise for the rather long rambling tone of this post...but hey, you don't have to read it.

My point though is that POTC is <u>not</u> realistic, was <u>not</u> intended to be so, and despite the best efforts of modders will <u>never</u> be realistic. The addition of material and gameplay elements of vague historical accuracy and realism by the modding community is determined by their own arbitrary decisions. So the question remains whether Slavery as a gameplay element should (hypothetically) be added to the game and in what manner it should/would take. The decision of whether to be nice but inaccurate or as historically correct as possible is not so simple.
If modders decide what new features to introduce to the game, then the modder takes a decision as to how to use/enable that content according to their own whims, interests and in the case of controversial elements (brothels etc) moral values. If the modder has reservations about the idea of slavery then he/she is likely either to not add it at all, or add it with restrictions upon the possible in-game actions. In an ideal world perhaps the modder would trust the users/players of the game and content to make responsible decisions for themselves on this sort of subject.

I suspect the answer to my original question on whether the idea was possible is that it is not. If we agree it is not acceptable to include slavery in a nice 'positive' fashion (such as manumission) due to this being contrary to the established historical reality (according to contemporary accounts and current knowledge), then the likelihood is that it cannot in fact be added without controversy and questions over the responsibility of the person adding/enabling that content and the potential users of that content. I'd like to think no POTC players would get a kick out of being a slaver, but noone can definitively say one way or the other, though the way in which gamers happily do such things as murdering prostitutes and civilians in GTA suggests some players of games are either not particularly responsible or are not burdened by relating their in-game actions to the 'real world' they live in. Ok so in most FPS games we shoot first without any real thought given, but generally we are positioned in the game as at least notionally 'the good guy', meaning that there is in the game's plot some form of justification for our in-game behaviour. Perhaps you don't agree that in-game behaviour requires any justification, but IMO divorcing such fantasy actions from reality is problematic, at least where the game world/universe is meant to closely correspond to or represent our own 'real' world.
In a way this slavery idea is equivalent of say producing a WWII Sim City type game where the player is in a position of total authority and deciding that you could build a concentration camp. Where content has no possible positive side to it, does it really belong in a game made for entertainment, or is the very idea of making slavery in some way 'entertainment' abhorrent? And would it run the risk of trivialising the issues?
 
You are right Cpt Fabris, adding slavery as part of an entertaiment game runs the risk of trivializing the whole subject, but the way I see it, games today are more than entertaiment software, they can be used as educational and information tools, but still the risk remains. I think the only way to avoid the trivialization is to make a really historically accurate mod that integrates slaves not only in the trading aspect of the game but also in the everyday life of the cities.

I attended a 6 month semminar on colonial slavery and another one in colonial life during my under graduate years, so I think I know some things about the subject and I am willing to help the modmakers give an accurate account to the players.

<img src="http://www.humanities.uci.edu/users/vfolkenflik/VRF%20Sources/slave%20ship%20www2.gwu.edu%20large.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />

<img src="http://www.sonofthesouth.net/slavery/slave-ship_Picture1.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
 
I´m sorry the delay of a reply, sometimes the process of thinking takes time... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/modding.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":modding" border="0" alt="modding.gif" />

I think its time to find points in wich we agree
We agree in not to hurt anybodies sensibility by historical (and present) issues
we agree that slavery must not be consider as an entertaining feature
But, i think, we also agree, that its necessary deal with the subject

In my oppinion the best would be, make a Quest, where the slavery topic, were present

Let suppose that an offcier of the character ask him to embark on a quest to rescue a relative (a father, a daughter, a brother) who is in hands of slavedealers

In that way, the character would fight the dealers, wich is ethically correct, but it also would be involved with this world, so it ust learn and know about it...


PD The drawings had freezing my blood and reinforce my conviction that the subject cannot be forgotten and it must be discussed.
 
<!--quoteo(post=143583:date=Mar 28 2006, 12:42 AM:name=Merciless Mark)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Merciless Mark @ Mar 28 2006, 12:42 AM) [snapback]143583[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
dont forget, not just black ppl were sold as slaves, even europeans ended up as commodity
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Steps up on soap box*
Sadly unknown to most of the world or they are turning a blind eye to it again. that is still going on today this very moment,Going on in the Ukraine and through Turkey and starting to pop up on USA soil again.There was documentary made that sheds some light on this subject on PBS and would advise others to watch it and spread it around to friends and family.Its no suited for kids,And its title is very misleading and makes you think of weirdo stuff,they could have named it better. <a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/slaves/making/" target="_blank">http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/slaves/making/</a> ,This has to stop,Its plain sick.And its a bigger problem than the Euros are letting on,This is what goes on in our world daily,but we are never told of the real news or issues by our governments and media.They want to give us the impression we in this century are a evolved society, Laugh!! Evolved Society LMAO!!!
Steps off of Soap box*
Sorry about that folks
 
<!--quoteo(post=143583:date=Mar 27 2006, 11:42 AM:name=Merciless Mark)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Merciless Mark @ Mar 27 2006, 11:42 AM) [snapback]143583[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
dont forget, not just black ppl were sold as slaves, even europeans ended up as commodity
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To that Merciless Mark, I have to dissagree, or at least my education prevents me from it, but maybe I am wrong, if so, I am going to ask the university for a refund.

Well, I don´t want this to be a long post, because I just want to make a point here and is RACISM, yes, the whole system was based in discrimination, racial discrimination, the native americans were labeled as racially inferior and primitive (from the eurocentric point of view), then when the natives were almost wiped out, the europeans decided to "import" africans, the so called "human ebony trade" all under the same racial discrimination principles that said that primitive peoples did not have souls (scary huh), the point is that antropologists name this white violence angainst the black.

During colonial times the social cast system was based in the color of the skin, so for that system to work, "white people" could not be enslaved, otherwise the whole thing would collapse, so no mater how much money a "white person" owed you, the worst thing you could do to him/her was accusing that person of witchcraft, but never enslave him/her, at least legally, because europeans were enslaved in different ways, like forced to serve in the army or on a ship, as a matter of fact, gangpressing sailors could be considered as a form of slavery, as well as the many works that poor children were forced to do.

Here is an example of europeans being enslaved:
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Early_Modern_Europe" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Early_Modern_Europe</a>
 
<!--quoteo(post=143633:date=Mar 27 2006, 05:08 PM:name=Inzane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Inzane @ Mar 27 2006, 05:08 PM) [snapback]143633[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
As for caucazoids not being enslaved in the same way, Saying that itself is hints of Racism, That statement can be mistakened as caucazoids are to smart to be enslaved.
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You are right mate, the whole racial discrimination issue is a big "facade" for an economical system, but you got me wrong in my intention, I was not suggesting anything discriminatory, nor that caucazoid people is too smart to be enslaved, and it worries me that you had that idea, as a matter of fact if I support this so called slavery mod is because I hate the silence and censorship on such historical crimes.

The point I am trying to prove is that racial discrimination was and as you say still is the method of choosing the victim and a justification for the crime, that is why I said that caucazoid people were enslaved in different ways, because that is the nature of discrimination, punishments were an example of this, there were different ways of torment for african and european pople, in the case of the espanish empire, the specific punishments were sanctioned by royal decree, sometimes to prevent the slave owners to apply excessive punishments of their own.

I have read examples of royal decrees that banned the use of specific clothing and determined the times at wich africans could not walk the streets alone, I also have a document in wich spanish viceroy Sebastian de Eslava complains about having to arm the free negroes to defend the colony, because they could not hold the musket straight and are afraid of fire, I don´t have to say that such affirmation is nonsense. I also studied a case of a spanish scribe that was sentenced to the gallows and could have been sent to a prision for 4 years just because he was going to marry a creole woman... the list can go on and on.

To make things clear, I am not justifying the historical facts that I exposed above, so don´t mistake me by a racist and I would like to discuss this subject on a more professional level, I think we can exchange some information on the different ways slavery was used from colony to colony.
 
my post was not directed at anyone it was to inform mostly,of the background you generally won't find in current historys books,they tend to be dumbed down or breifly mentioned, And no way am I implying you are racist.just implying how a simple line can be misunderstood. and taken in a whole diffrent direction than intended.We all do it not knowing.And I was under the understanding that this was a educated conversation.filled with passion.Sorry if you got caught up in the passion of the topic.you made many valid points and so did many in this topic ,I feel less and less people know the truth and that trend scares me.it truly is not something we can brush under a rug and forget ever happened.Sorry if I made you feel I was lashing out at you.that was not my intention.


Reading it again, it did come off harsh so I removed that line.
 
Thanks god, I though my bad english was causing missunderstandings about my possition torwards this very delicate subject. But the question remains, how do we portrait the historical reality of slavery on PotC?
 
Europeans could certainly be enslaved. After the Cromwellian wars in Ireland, and afterwards, a great many found themselves in the Caribbean in a situation. It was probably described as bonded labour or some similar euphemism, but it was slavery. Catholic priests could find themselves in this situation.

I suggest that slavery is a bad idea. Rescuing slaves might make an okay quest, but with the graphic resources created, someone could further alter the text files to be a slaver trader themselves. This is would be if the quest would be to attack a slave ships. I have to wonder what it historical about rescuing them, if that is intended.

Perhaps some towns could be used to represent those statelets that escaped slaves created in the mountainous or isolated areas of those islands where they had toiled. These would be essentially like pirate ports and a player could work for them.

<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sailr.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":sail" border="0" alt="sailr.gif" />
 
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