WIP Have ingredients and money, but can't get apothecary treatement

[Talisman]

The rebalancing of the Apothecary by @Tingyun is explained here:-

Included in Build - Have ingredients and money, but can't get apothecary treatement | PiratesAhoy!

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Thanks!

That post suggests it wasn't meant for inclusion in the main mod.
Did that ever change?

 

[Jason]

That clarifies some things for me. Sorry I missed this I would have voted no on inclusion. BTW I use this feature to upgrade officers not the player which might explain why I pay with crew money. ?

 

[Jason]

So now that I have looked at that and responded over there let me just say if the consensus is to leave this like it is now in the game I just won't use that particular feature and unless I could sell those objects I'll just dump them.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I use this feature to upgrade officers not the player which might explain why I pay with crew money. ?

You pay with crew money because that was one of the changes made by @Tingyun.
It used to require personal wealth.

We can always change it back again, of course. The poll is still open, so feel free to vote.
In fact, everybody else is also welcome to vote now or change your vote.

The big question is now: What price is fair for the HP increase?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

So now that I have looked at that and responded over there let me just say if the consensus is to leave this like it is now in the game I just won't use that particular feature and unless I could sell those objects I'll just dump them.

That would be a shame indeed. The feature is there for a reason, of course.
If it isn't used, that makes it quite pointless.

Are you having a hard time saving up that level of money then?

 

[Levis]

That clarifies some things for me. Sorry I missed this I would have voted no on inclusion. BTW I use this feature to upgrade officers not the player which might explain why I pay with crew money. ?

Do know I'm working on a way to use perkpoints to increase the max HP for officers. Maybe that solves your problem too?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Do know I'm working on a way to use perkpoints to increase the max HP for officers. Maybe that solves your problem too?

An existing feature having a prohibitively high price to the point that it isn't used cannot be solved with additional perks.
A perk could help to increase the HP of officers too, but that still wouldn't change if the Apothecary goes unused.
Since the Apothecary exists, I want it to be useful too.

 

[Grey Roger]

The apothecary is useful. He's almost the only way to get rid of an albatross.

Personally I almost never use the apothecary to get HP boosts anyway. By the time I have all the ingredients, 20HP isn't all that significant, though by that time 20,000 gold isn't all that significant either, so if I happen to be in the area, why not? But 100,000 for 10HP is enough to dissuade me from buying the boost even if I'm already in the shop to dispose of a bird.

As for a perk, presumably this will go to the surgeon? I'll already have one saving up points to get the first aid perks and one saving up points to get the potion and poison perks; whichever one finishes their collection first can then save up for this one. Or is the idea that an officer with unused ability points can use them to buy HP instead of perks?

 

[Jason]

That would be a shame indeed. The feature is there for a reason, of course.
If it isn't used, that makes it quite pointless.

Are you having a hard time saving up that level of money then?

Ahoy, Pieter. I have plenty of money. It is pretty easy to acquire money in the game, but if it costs 100,000 for 10 points, (10,000 per point) I just don't it makes sense from a cost benefit point of view and I would agree, in its current configuration it is, from my point of view, pointless. If it were up to me it would put it back the way it was and leave it alone.

 

[Levis]

An existing feature having a prohibitively high price to the point that it isn't used cannot be solved with additional perks.
A perk could help to increase the HP of officers too, but that still wouldn't change if the Apothecary goes unused.
Since the Apothecary exists, I want it to be useful too.

yeah me too. I do think extra max_hp should be quite expensive as it gives the character a huge boost. I mentioned this so we could also take that into the balancing discussion already.
For example how many perkpoints would equal how much increase in max HP and how much is a perkpoint worth in money etc.

I personally would suggest to have the apothecary be a bit more expensive then the way by perkpoints. because at the start of the game if you really need a fighter you could use the perkpoints to increase its HP, this will limit you to use other perk for this character, and obtaining perkpoints should get harder with each level because leveling up becomes harder, so at one point the money way will become more and more attractive, by this time in the game you would probably have gotten a lot of money already, and therefore a higher price would bother you less.

 

[Levis]

Or is the idea that an officer with unused ability points can use them to buy HP instead of perks?

This, still looking into what would be the best way, but I was thinking of saying for example you could have a simple HP increase first which gives you (say) +10 HP for 1 perkpoint. After this one you can get another one. This one will give you (say again) +10 HP for 2 perkpoints, this one is repeatable, so you can activate it as many times as you want.
I still need to look into the number, but with the way the current system is set up it should be easy to make this.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Ahoy, Pieter. I have plenty of money. It is pretty easy to acquire money in the game, but if it costs 100,000 for 10 points, (10,000 per point) I just don't it makes sense from a cost benefit point of view and I would agree, in its current configuration it is, from my point of view, pointless. If it were up to me it would put it back the way it was and leave it alone.

The HP bonus does give you a permanent advantage compared to your opponents throughout the entirety of the game, so even a little advantage could still be considered fairly substantial.
And as long as it is pretty easy to acquire money, is it not useful to have something to spend that money on?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

The apothecary is useful. He's almost the only way to get rid of an albatross.

I meant specifically "the HP increase feature provided by the Apothecary".

Personally I almost never use the apothecary to get HP boosts anyway. By the time I have all the ingredients, 20HP isn't all that significant, though by that time 20,000 gold isn't all that significant either, so if I happen to be in the area, why not? But 100,000 for 10HP is enough to dissuade me from buying the boost even if I'm already in the shop to dispose of a bird.

What reason is there for the HP boost to not be significant, despite it giving you a permanent advantage over your enemies throughout the entirety of the game?

My main concern is that increasing your maximum HP basically shifts the balance permanently in your favour.
That doesn't need to be an issue, but it does remove some sort of challenge from the game. So that is why I'd be cautious with making it too easy to do this.

 

[lapuvida]

The HP bonus does give you a permanent advantage compared to your opponents throughout the entirety of the game, so even a little advantage could still be considered fairly substantial.
And as long as it is pretty easy to acquire money, is it not useful to have something to spend that money on?

I can totally agree here, either way of playing style sooner or later (often sooner) acquiring money is not a problem anymore. And at least for myself i can say, that all reasonable ways to spend this money are appreciated.

 

[Grey Roger]

When you have somewhere around 200HP and enemies who can take you out with one or two swipes, 20HP is probably not going to make much of a difference. When you have around 1000HP, gold armour and Nicholas Sharp's sabre, 20HP is probably not going to make much of a difference. This is why I almost never use the apothecary anyway. Changing him from 20,000 gold for 20HP, to 100,000 gold for 10HP, will only have the effect of removing the word "almost" from that sentence.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

When you have somewhere around 200HP and enemies who can take you out with one or two swipes, 20HP is probably not going to make much of a difference. When you have around 1000HP, gold armour and Nicholas Sharp's sabre, 20HP is probably not going to make much of a difference. This is why I almost never use the apothecary anyway. Changing him from 20,000 gold for 20HP, to 100,000 gold for 10HP, will only have the effect of removing the word "almost" from that sentence.

Is it even not worthwhile if you repeat the Apothecary several times? Then it is no longer +20, but more.

What might be necessary to make it more worthwhile without unbalancing the game? I can think of the following:
- Reducing the price again (makes it more affordable, but since gaining money is quite easy anyway, this further offsets the balancing)
- Increasing the HP gain (for example to a percentage of your current HP so that it becomes more effective on higher levels)
- Making the items required more common

Does any of that sound like a good idea? Anyone got a better one?

 

[Grey Roger]

Reduce the price, increase the HP gain and make the items required less common, perhaps? Then it becomes worth visiting the apothecary when you have all the items but because they're rare, you won't be doing it all that often. That ought to prevent it from unbalancing the game. But don't make the items too rare or you'll almost never get the whole lot.

Possibly make it a percentage HP gain rather than a fixed amount. That way you don't get a ridiculously huge gain if you're lucky enough to find everything early on, nor do you get such a pitiful gain that it's not worth the effort when you're higher level. Regardless of your level, it's equally worthwhile to trade in the item collection.

 

[Levis]

making the items more common sounds good to me. what are the items again? Can they be used for something else?

maybe make the HP increase a percentual increase (at the time of doing it).
So say it increases your HP by 10%, when you have 100 HP it will give you 10 extra, but if you have 300 it will give you 30 extra.

Edit: Seems @Grey Roger had the same idea about the percentual increase

 

[Pieter Boelen]

@Grey Roger suggests LESS common items, while @Levis suggests MORE common. What is it to be?
How about their current state? They used to be really uncommon; is that still the case, or is it now fairly doable to complete the set several times?

It seems we're all three of us leaning towards a percentual increase.

what are the items again?

The ones with the funny Latin names (can't remember them by heart).

Can they be used for something else?

No.