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We Have the Storm Engine!

Keith

Raping the Horses and Stealing the Women!
Staff member
Administrator
OK guys................

Big news day.

While in the other thread where we were all chatting away about moving to another engine I was talking to Seaward as well as Akella about the possibility of getting the source code for Storm so we could use it for ourselves to gain independence from a game that is no longer supported or distributed. Usually I would not have given this much thought, however with Akella going of the development business I figured it might be worth a shot. Well................they have agreed to supply the source code for City of Abandoned Ships to us. What they have asked is that we use the code to make a mod for COAS which if any good they will promote i Russia. Apart from that, this also gives us the opportunity to, in time and after COAS is no longer supported, to create our own game and package it up ourselves.

This brings up a number of issues about direction for modding at PA! and the future of New Horizons.

There will be issues of changing code, team structure, handling the source code, artwork, short term and long term goals, who's the coffee girl, getting old modders back, changes between the old POTC code and the newer code, long term availability of COAS, etc...

This announcement is to try and create a discussion and gauge the feeling of everyone of possibly of moving everything over now to the 2.8 Storm Engine.
 
Sweat :bow :will :dance , this is the best christmas present anyone could ask for. It would be nice to see more work been done on COAS, a few of us have started making a combined mod for COAS which i'm sure your already aware of but we are either new to COAS code or are new at modding, if we had more experienced modders we would i'm sure be able to port much more over. Officerpuppy is the most experienced of the COAS modders, i think we're doing well so far but of course its not like POTC where it became much more difficult to mod after the builds was been done, but one day it will be just like that one day. Ok time for bed my minds going blank. :modding
 
I wouldn't say I'm that experienced ;) The most modding I've done for POTC and AOP was some music/sound mods. As a matter of fact the first thing I did for COAS was port over my old mods to the game.

But your right, just about everyone working on COAS is new to it. The first big test is trying to get a reinit button for COAS. I don't think any of us have any idea on how to do it, hopefuly we can get it done since I assume most of it not all POTC modders know little of the COAS code and vice versa so we have to do it ourselves. But I think with some insight from Pieter and lots of trial and error we might be able to pull it off.

As for the source code, that's quite amazing. I can't even begin to imagine what can be acomplished with it.
 
I work with a lot of major software companies and find it nothing short of amazing that they're willing to give up source - and for free! WOW The move to opensource by many developers in the last couple of years is looked at largely as a communal development trend for free testing so that the best work and fixes make it back into the baselines with minimal overhead. It is indeed the wave of the future. Maybe our Russian friends are looking at capitalizing on that paradigm. They must believe they have something valuable to gain. I am still always wary however and would look hard at that code and apps in an issolated enclave to ensure no sniffer apps were looming in there (involuntary collection).

Very exciting!!! :will I'm extremely busy these days, but with retirement on the horizon soon, I'm hoping to finish up a couple books I'm writing, doing a few odd upscale IT and military consulting jobs for augmented income, and helping you guys out as much as you'd like me to on this project once my time frees up. ;)

I truly enjoy this game, subject, medium, and the great people/friends here that share this passion - I think I speak for most that this is a labor of love. Wish I had more time to help you guys RIGHT NOW. :modding

What do you guys think of a pirate game/environment using the Unreal Engine?

MK
 
MK, As nice as the Unreal 3 engine is the amount of sheer coding required to turn it from a FPS into a naval fighting RPG would be immense and far outside the reach of the people who mod for a hobby. In one of the earlier thread I asked about the same thing (as well as using the Cryengine) it's just a bridge to far :(
 
This is excellent news, securing our future as some of us had wished. Definitely a huge Xmas present.

But I must state and re-state these words of caution:

"Great power holds great responsibility"

It's easy to get carried away by the prospect of rewards from a successful commercial enterprise. But to make that a successful endeavor we must do the smart thing and progressively scale our "little" modding operation to something that beats CoAS hands down in terms of playability, realism and that old world charm that had made classic games... evergreen.

Do I think we have the talent to do it? I think we do. So long as we keep making progress, one small step at a time.

The material rewards are secondary. For the prospect of being able to build a world of our own is priceless.

I suggest not going into planning who does what, who leads who. I propose Pieter take the next few months to stabilise Build 14 at a stable beta phase while people like myself not bound to managerial responsibilities explore porting some of our work to CoAS standard.

My department of ship handling being one of the quickest to do as it really doesn't matter what sort of ships I'm given (how different would a frigate handle from... a similar frigate?). Even if we don't yet know how to exploit the source code, it will allow key people to gain experience from working with basic scripting.

That training can lead to successful work on more complex scripting. We need people to not just do good work, but lay a path for future generations of modders/programmers to follow. Then you get a sustainable operation based on ad-hoc contributions.

There's one good benefit of letting our actions speak for themselves as we progress step by step here, gentlemen. The strategic battle is won by successive and frequent tactical victories, and not the other way around.

I've seen at least two dozen major mods over the years stall because they focused too much on getting their strategic vision and their organisational charts right. As they were doing that I did the opposite and wiped them all out within a year by releasing total gameplay overhauls, not fantasy ideas. We need collaboration and mission-centric leadership to maintain a high standard of efficiency and professionalism. So that we need less man hours to achieve the given goal.

So if this is going to work it has to be a workable, focused-mission democracy and yes, we're going to set one up. First ever in the world, I guess.

Keep the aforesaid in mind, or discard it as utter nonsense, but I believe we have the opportunity to not only create, but pioneer a new and promising enterprise. I may have told a certain few of you my views that certain aspects of human history are under threat of being forgotten because the media never promotes such as historical awareness or even the desire to "go where no man has gone before".

Well, we appear to be able to lead a revolution in this department, because we don't have a single game like POTC: NH in the market today.
 
Merry Christmas indeed! Fantastic news Keith! Good work mate! :cheers

This is exciting stuff! I have a lot of things going through my mind, as i am sure most of you do as well, but as SWS pointed out above, we need to take our time and do this right! We have an unprecedented opportunity here! I also agree we need to release a stable, final NH before we make the big jump into Storm 2.8. The build has been our bread and butter for years and we need to finish it off properly! Officerpuppy and MK and the other CoAS modders are doing a fantastic job on their initial mods, and those should continue as well, as they will probably be the basis for our full blown CoAS mod that we send to Akella.

MK, I understand and appreciate your caution, but we have always had a good relationship with Akella and Seaward, if it wasn't for the close ties we have formed with them over the years, I am sure they would not even be considering this. The way western publishing companies have treated Akella in the past, we are lucky they are even still willing to deal with us directly. I really don't think we have anything to worry about as far as malicious code is concerned.

Western game developers and publishers are convinced that most gamers just want to be hand fed, they just want eye candy and little substance, they don't want a game that will challenge them and make them think! With this opportunity, we will have a chance to show them that they are wrong! 6 years after the release of a middle of the road RPG and it is still alive and flourishing thanks to the hard work our modders have put into it. We have added things that most thought were not possible and would not make for good game play. Direct Sail, why would anyone want that? Historical accuracy, why bother? More realistic sailing and ship handling, that's just ridicules! More accurate period cannon and shot, who cares just blow something up! We have proven them wrong before!

There is a lot to digest and think about here, some of us are going to end up learning a lot more about programming than we ever intended, not to mention Maya and Blender and a few others as well. This project will not be an easy one for sure, but nothing worth doing is ever easy, and this is definitely worth doing! Once this news spreads a bit, there is no doubt in my mind we will be seeing some old friends returning as well as some new ones! I don't have a lot of free time myself, but what I do have will be devoted to NH and this future project. 2010 is going to be an interesting year! :onya
 
Direct Sail, why would anyone want that? Historical accuracy, whybother? More realistic sailing and ship handling, that's justridicules! More accurate period cannon and shot, who cares just blowsomething up! We have proven them wrong before!

It's because no one has these features these days that I can say we will end up blowing all them landlubbers back to the Stone Age in terms of intellectual competence. That'll teach them to listen to the pandora's kitten next time they try and con the masses for their $50 :3
 
Daaaaaamn, that is a nice christmas present! Too bad I do not have THAT much time for modding. Although I could make some skins ;) As I still have a bunch of unreleased Enlgish soldiers :p
 
AMAZING!!! Count me in with you SWS. I will start looking at porting POTC to COAS

thanks
 
This is just about the most amazing news we've had ever since modding started on Pirates of the Caribbean six years ago!
It means that game engine limitations are finally a non-issue. The only limitations now are our imagination and our abilities.

Of course there is many implications involved and I don't think we should rush into anything.
For one, there is the PotC vs. CoAS vs. seperate game decision.
Then there are the whole legal implications.

SOURCE CODE: WHAT TO DO WITH IT?
We do not yet know exactly what versions of the code we might be able to get.
Would we get the CoAS Storm 2.8 version? Or could we also get some older code, say the 2006 or even 2003 versions?
That would be most useful because it'll show us exactly what would need to be changed to adapt PotC code to the updated engines.

Having the source code means we can basically do whatever we want.
However, this also means that we get so much more chances to mess up real badly.
There's been some complex coding for the PotC Build Mod in the past,
but that is going to be nothing compared to the complexity involved when we get into the game's source code.

How are we even going to compile the source code back into an updated ENGINE.exe and MODULES folders?
These are all things we will need to discover and find out before anything can even be attempted.
And for this, we will need people to REALLY get into the coding side of things.
It will then not only be useful, but required, to have some members here with serious prior coding knowledge.

PotC vs. CoAS?
Then it comes to deciding which path to follow as far as the game to work on.
For this, I would like to refer you to the old "Porting the Build Mod to CoAS?" thread,
which contains some still very valid discussion on the matter.

PotC - THE GOOD: MOVIE TIE-IN AND PUBLICITY
The game was originally quite succesful despite being rushed, mainly because of the movie tie-in.
This is an aspect that cannot be ignored. I myself would never have gotten into this game
if it hadn't been called "Pirates of the Caribbean".
Certainly the same will have applied to many other players who have bought the game because of the license,
only to find the PotC Build Mod later and become enamoured with the additional gameplay and realism value added.

Known intellectual properties just work very well to generate interest.
This has also been seen with the PotC Build Mod where people are instantly interested
in the Horatio Hornblower and Master and Commander involvement in the modpack
not to mention the ever-lasting requests for Jack Sparrow, Davy Jones, the Black Pearl and the Flying Dutchman.
This is something we should bear in mind if we port or go stand-alone.

PotC - THE GOOD: BUILD MOD!!!
This just cannot be denied. The PotC Build Mod has become absolutely incredible
and what we have been able to accomplish blows all our expectations out of the water!
More features, some of which have been oft-requested, but thought to be impossible, most notably DirectSail and Different Flags.
More historical realism, with different time settings being available within the same game.
More story, with various storylines being available with different characters, new scenes and events and different gameplay.
Improved graphics, new textures and models.

It is really by rights that our modpack's official name has been redubbed to "Pirates of the Caribbean: New Horizons".
It has gone beyond being a modpack to beind close to a fully new game experience and
it really does offer new horizons for the players to explore.

PotC - THE BAD: AGE
The main problem with PotC is that it is a 2003 game and it is just not properly available anymore.
This seriously limits the audience the game can reach and thus also the chance for new people to become interested.
In it's day, PotC had seriously good graphics and as far as I'm concerned, it still does,
but game development has not stalled and by comparison with current popular games, the graphics are lacking.
Since people's interest in a game comes for a great extent through the images they see in videos and screenshots,
this is also something that cannot be ignored.

CoAS - THE GOOD: AVAILABILITY
Playlogic has done a seriously bad job at promoting and distributing CoAS,
which has resulted in not many people being even aware of the game
and the game being very hard to buy legally even for people who do know it exists.
The game was listed to be available for digital purchase on Gamers Gate, but has since been removed.

It is said that the game will be released through this platform on the 26th of December after all anyway.
This would solve the problem of availability for quite some time into the future,
which has proven to be becoming a big issue when it comes to modding on PotC.
I don't know if Gamers Gate keeps also old games available, but if so, that might even solve the availability issue forever.
That is a big win of CoAS over PotC to be sure!

CoAS - THE GOOD: WORLDMAP
One of the coolest things in CoAS which the Storm 2.8 engine has made possible has to be the realistic Caribbean worldmap.
No longer does the game take place in a fictional archipelago (stock PotC) or an inaccurate one (PotC Build Mod).
For the first time ever, even the Mexican shore is present, which could offer a great realism value.

CoAS - THE BAD: ADVANCED GRAPHICS, BUT IS IT BETTER?
However, there are some things about CoAS that I just don't like.
Although there's some improvements in the graphics of the water and light effects, not everything looks convincing to me.
Spending much time at sea for real, I can tell you that despite the improved graphics, it doesn't look real.

956868_20090420_screen002.jpg


Compare this to the clean, simple yet highly effective look of PotC,
especially with the added bonus of the best cannon fire effects I have seen in a game (thanks Merciless Mark!).

batlt.JPG


Of course this still doesn't look real, but the bright colours give things a bit more of a comic book feel,
which makes it easier to dispense my disbelief and 'buy' the game world for what it is.

CoAS - THE UGLY: INAPPRORIATE STYLE AND LACK OF HISTORICAL FEEL
It gets worse when we compare the modeling in PotC with that of AoP and CoAS.
Location models in AoP and CoAs are modeled quite nicely, but appear very generic.
It doesn't look like actual period towns and there's nothing about them
that indicates a certain historical style or nationality.

The ship models in AoP and CoAS also appear to me to have a less realistic look, despite using more polygons.
This is in part because of the very "clean" look of the textures,
but there's also something about the models themself that I can't quite lay my finger on.

The thing I dislike most in AoP and CoAS though are the character models.
They are clearly inspired by the Japanese anime and manga style,
which doesn't feel right in a historical world involving mainly western pirates.
Also, the character models again appear too clean and seem to lack a certain amount of personality.

So different this was in PotC, where some character models were deliberately based on characters from various pirate films,
such as Cutthroat Island and Pirates of the Caribbean.

GOING STAND-ALONE AND LEGAL IMPLICATIONS
The question of making our own game from scratch has been raised many times in the past
and this development might make things a lot more possible on this account than before.

This does bring us into a lot of legal issues that we must first examine before being able to go this way.
After all, pretty much all content in the Build Mod is based on stock game material,
even if it has been subsequently been retextured or remodeled by us.

So then the question has to be asked, if we DO want to go stand-alone,
who owns the rights to what and which content can we reuse and which content can we not?
Can we re-use stock PotC locations like they did in CoAS? How about character models and ships?
How about MODIFIED locations, character models and ships? Can we use those?
Because they're still based on material of which the rights *may* lie with Bethesda,
who we can't seem to be able to contact and thus cannot even ask for permission.

And what about Disney's role? They are definitly very protective of their intellectual properties.
We have got movie-accurate built-from-scratch ship models of the Black Pearl and Flying Dutchman.
This means that the rights to these models lie wie no game development company,
but with the original modelers (Kazeite and ZarethPL in this case).
However, the designs are still copyrighted by Disney. So can we use them?
If we go standalone, can we legally add in a Jack Sparrow storyline or can we not?

PORTING vs. STAND-ALONE GAME
Whatever we choose to do, we need people. Lots of people. More people than we have.
So we have to generate interest and publicity, recruit people
and cooperate with Akella, seaward.ru and other Russian modding communities.
This all to gain a bigger knowledge base and workforce.

But to be realistic, this cannot all be done overnight. This has to be built up carefully.
We have to consider the path we want to take and how to get people onboard for the ride.

For me, I think going fully standalone might, at least based on our current status, not be feasable.
It will require just too much new modeling and texture work, for which we simply do not have the people.
So until we manage to attract so many people that this becomes realistic, I reckon we should set our goals lower.

PATH TO FOLLOW?
I will always stick to the opinion that we must finish the PotC Build Mod before we continue onto bigger things.
The reason is partly because of historical value and for old time's sake
and we cannot just abandon things when we are closer than ever to having a finished version.

Another reason for finishing Build 14 first is because I believe that whatever we choose to do,
we should include as much of our own Build content in the final version.
If possible, we should use Build 14 as a base for future progress, which is much easier if Build 14 is actually a stable base.
We could then try to update the PotC game engine and make Build 14 work with the Storm 2.8 engine
or our own modified version of it, which includes what we want and leaves out what we don't.

We can then try to move over as many features as possible from CoAS into our now-modern version of Build 14.
I prefer doing this over doing it the other way around, because we are familiar with the PotC Build code
and we have spent so much time on developing a general game base that we are generally very happy with.
CoAS has been developed by other people to become a game base that they are happy with, but we do not necessarily have to agree.
In fact, admitting I have not played CoAS very much, there's some things about it that rub me the wrong way.

Once we have completed this, we could choose to remove all stock CoAS files from our files and include the stock PotC files.
Our work has then become a modpack for CoAS instead of for PotC, which by that time should be properly available through Gamers Gate.
This will enable everybody who we can interest in our work to actually play this game as well.
Akella and seaward.ru would probably be very interested in this version as well.

If we have managed to reach this point, we could try to get to work on making our own resource files from scratch,
including the worldmap and islands (maybe not limit the game to the Caribbean anymore?) and the location models
(make historically accurate and nation-specific towns, as well as different types of outside locations).
If we can get the legal issues with the Storm engine sorted out with Akella, we could then release it as a stand-alone game.

Remember also the game "Voyage Century Online", which is a MMORPG and is also based on the Storm Engine.
If we have access to the code and we can find people capable of writing MMORPG support for the game,
maybe we could even eventually be able to expand our game to that level,
which would certainly increase interest to a very large extent.
But we should always keep the standalone game experience as far as I'm concerned.

MY ROLE
As all of you should, by now, be aware of, I am not a game developer by any means.
I never had any education on programming, texturing, modeling or anything else.
Everything I know is self-taught, but has served me well in the things I have done.

When we get to work on porting the game to CoAS or using the source code to develop a stand-alone game,
my knowledge will be found severely lacking.
Also, I have a completely different professional life outside PotC Build Mod involvement,
which has nothing to do with pirate games, only with modern ships.

I never intended to become "community leader" and "big bad boss" in any way shape or form
and I have never considered myself as such. This has and hopefully always shall be
a democratic community in the best sense of the word where everybody is welcome,
everybody is helped to the best of our extent and we try to listen to everybody.
But I can't deny I ended up in a bit of a leadership role.

But with our activities expanding such, I think we will need additional people to lead this community.
People who know more about coding and about modeling and people who can be present here when I'm at sea.
I cannot keep this up forever and eventually somebody has to take my place and do a better job,
just like I took Nathan Kell's place when real life became too busy for him.

I do want to stick around to help out as much as I can, of course,
but mainly to provide ideas and information based on my experience
and knowledge of the history of PotC modding.

CONCLUSION
In the end, getting access to the game's source code is incredible news with huge implications.
This could be the beginning of a whole new era in pirate game modding and development.
We could create renewed interest in that time period and get people who otherwise like only fast-paced arcadey games
to appreciate the subtleties of historical realism and slower and more thoughtful gameplay.
We could combine the best aspects of all previous Storm-engine based games into one game
and expand on them based on our own ideas and preferences as well, taking into account the "modern gaming audience".

If we play things right, this could become a truly amazing project. More amazing than it already is.
To join different people from all over the world with different languages and cultures together on a common project
and work together in a democratic and supportive way without caring about race, age or religion would be an incredible thing.
Not just from a gaming perspective but also as a view of what this world could be.

Even if we can live up only to a fraction of the possibilities, we will have gained more than just a better game.
As such, I wish us and everybody who joins us all the best for the future!
And MERRY CHRISTMAS TO YOU ALL!!! :woot

merryjack1.png

Image made by Thagarr
 
ill assume the engine was wrote in C or C++. Whichever it is easy to compile and debug using a complier. There are loads out there. I have done some C++ coding in the past and would be more than willing to take a look at the source code and get my head around it then we can look at making changes. To be able to alter the game engine though build 14 needs to be totally stable so we know weather a bug is caused by the modified engine or build code.

Keith said above that they will give us source code for Storm 2.8. I would seriously consider upgrading POTC to storm 2.8 before we port over to COAS or a standalone. I dont think the source code would require to much editing work with POTC

thanks
 
The thing is, if they want us to do this for possible sale in Russia we would probably have to get rid of the Jack Sparrow storyline AND the Horatio Hornblower storylines... I dont think our fans would be happy about that at ALL

If we get the source code for 2.8 I would suggest porting the BETA/finished Build 14 version over NOT start a completly new game

Its all legal problems I agree its great news but if it means loosing the rights for PotC content, Jack Sparrow AND Horatio Hornblower I would say no go (especially with our man power)
 
Well, we don't have those rights in the first place. As long as we make a modpack that is not for profit,
especially on an original Disney Pirates of the Caribbean game, there should be no problem with PotC rights.
Not sure about Hornblower, but again I foresee no legal issues as long as we don't make any profit.

If we can get the Selectable Storylines mod working in a Storm 2.8 engine game and they do want to release it as a game in Russia,
which I don't see happening any time soon, we can always provide these storylines as free additional download.
That way, it'd still be legal, no? Or at least almost. :whipa
 
I know I wrote quite a novel there ( ^ ), but that doesn't mean that nobody else is allowed to say anything anymore.
All I tried to do is to write up a summary of the situation with some of my opinions and thoughts added in,
but it's intended as the BEGIN for our plans, not the END of the discussion! :shock
 
To encourage discussion here again, let me post some possibly controversial statements here
that hopefully not everyone will agree with. ;)

- If we are indeed going to adapt PotC Build to Storm 2.8 and then add the good parts of CoAS,
there's not too much point in continuing modding on PotC and CoAS seperately.
Since both efforts will end up joined in the end anyway, it's better to focus our efforts where they're most needed.


- Before we go overboard on ideas on what we could do by changing the source code,
I reckon we first need to get B14 done AND working with Storm 2.8.
Possibly merged with the good parts of CoAS also and drop the not-so-good parts of the Build Mod (are there any? :razz ).


And before somebody shoots me, I don't agree with these statements 100% either.
But you've got to admit there is some truth in them, no? :whipa
 
Hey, would anybody who has both PotC and CoAS be able to make a screenshot in both games at sea,
if possible with the exact same ship model and with as much as possible the same lighting and angle?
I'd like to be able to compare the look and feel of both games with each other as good as possible,
just to be able to find out what in CoAS looks better and what might look better in PotC.
That way, when the time comes, we might be able to decide better what of PotC graphics we want to keep and what not.
 
Your post above was excellent Pieter! You said it all perfectly, it's just a lot to digest mate, I was about to post almost the same thing you did, as long as we are not making a profit, I agree there should not be a real problem. There are several examples of copyrighted material being used as a basis for work that has been released for free distribution on the internet. Countless ebooks, many fan films, even mod packs for other games. We have had copyrighted material in our mods basically since day one. The "fair use" copyright laws in the US are so vague that most layers and judges can't even agree on them, let alone the international community. The internet ads a whole new dimension, and even though it has been around for a while, there are no really clear answers.

Disney and Bethesda have been aware of what we are doing here for a long time, if they had serious issues, I am sure they would have sent us a cease and desist order long ago. The fact is, we helped them sell copy's of their game, and we didn't get one cent in return for it. Granted, most of the original sales of the game were generated by hype over the movie and advertising, most of the sales after the first year have a lot to do with what we have done here. They didn't support their game or their community of fans. We did. How much we have helped really can't be put into numbers, but in my opinion, if not for us they would still have a lot of POTC cd's setting in some warehouse collecting dust. We have helped keep Disney's cash cow alive and well.

Personally, I am here because I love the genre and I am a bit of a pirate at heart, and I think almost all of us are here for similar reasons. We do what we do here because we love it, not to make money. If that were the case, we would all have went bankrupt a long time ago!
 
A lot to digest? I can imagine. It is quite the novel! :rofl
But I think I managed to be fairly brief, considering the amount of ground to cover.
Still, I'm hoping for feedback on the various points I brought up.
It is a lot, but I do reckon all of it is quite important to consider.

I've read of a fair amount of people who bought PotC because of our modding work.
And I suspect there is a "tip of the iceberg effect" involved here:
I read it about some people, so there's probably MANY people who I never read it from!
So Disney should indeed not have much to complain about! :whipa
 
Here are just a couple of quick screen shots, nothing fancy.

Luger in POTC with build 14 :

potcbuild14.jpg


And this is a Luger in COAS stock :

coasstock.jpg


For some reason they decided to make COAS look foggy almost all the time, I haven't sailed in the Caribbean for real, but I do know fog really isn't all that prevalent. I don't think it's the actual engine doing it, but maybe they were trying to mask some of the flaws of the engine. :shrug
 
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