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We Have the Storm Engine!

Here is my reply to what Pieter said to kk,

Hey guys,

I agree with the circle of trust thing that Pieter is saying, I posted the same thing on the forum

It is indeed very good news and we don't want Akella/Seaword.ru to think they have made a mistake so we do need to make sure that they are really trustworthy people we do give it to.

If Hook and Damski62 show up again I think that they would make use of the source code (however both have been inactive for a fair while now)

I don't know who else would be in the group at the current time though
Click to expand...
 
Pieter Boelen said:
This is what I said to Pirate_KK on the subject:

That's some seriously good news!

Of course I understand that non-distribution guarantees are important.
For the Akella tools, I basically just gave the password to anyone, since it wasn't too much of an important thing
and we really needed people to work with them and get the modeling going.
But the game's source files are a different thing altogether.

To ensure proper security for the files, firstly we can put a proper password protection on the archive.
As you say, the protection can be broken, but it's better than no protection.
Then we can put the file somewhere on the internet, but not freely distribute the link.
Alternatively, we could distribute the file through e-mail only.

One thing that we definitly do need to do is to only distribute it to seriously trusted members and nobody else.
That would, at the moment, probably by you, Captain Maggee and me and I'm not sure who else.
Maybe Hook, Maximus and Aconcagua when/if they become active again.
In any case only people who are
1. dedicated to the mod
and
2. have got proper coding knowledge (I don't, but I want them anyway! :razz )

I think if we can keep the "circle of trust" small, we should be good.
Anyone who wants to get his/her hands on the source code must first prove dedication and trustworthiness and knowledge of coding,
eg. we wouldn't give it to a newbie who says he's an experienced programmer, but we will give it to him once he's done some fixing for us
or made some good new mods or something.

Does this make sense to you?
Click to expand...


Now does my idea for a contract seem Like a good idea?? Or else Keith is the one who will get sued when it goes tits up. For those who replied last time with this is a hobby not a business well are you going to take the blame when it gets leaked Keith is being sued left right and centre? You are dealing with professional development companies who would not think twice about suing you. Any email or verbal agreements count for nothing when things turn legal. Hope your in for a whole legal minefield guys because Seaward.ru and Akella are not idiots and are not going to just throw the source at you like some are thinking. I would put your time scale for getting the source at about 1 year.

 
Don't worry about me getting sued, I've become quite familiar with how to dodge things the last few years and litigation against me would be a waste of time.

In saying that, I plan to explain to Edward right from the start that while we will do our most to protect the source, accidents happen and wolves in sheep's clothing also happen.

If that's a problem to him, then he does not understand that this is a COMMUNITY project and not some business where we all sit in the same office. Being a community project exposes us to all type of people, some of which will not have the projects best interests at heart.

I hope everyone understands that this may all end up falling apart because of this condition placed on us by Edward and making him understand that we cannot be responsible for it 100% may cause him to retract.
 
Good news indeed Keith! :onya

As for guaranteeing that the source code doesn't get leaked, that is indeed going to be a tricky one. I definitely understand Edward stating such as a condition for us getting the source code. I also think that discussions about just how we are going to iron that out need to take place in a Mod/Admin part of the forum. In my opinion, I agree that only a select few should actually have access to the code it's self, those who have proven both commitment and loyalty to the Build Mod and the PA community as a whole and who actually understand coding. Modelers and story writers wouldn't need access to the code to continue doing what they do best.
 
Keith said:
Don't worry about me getting sued, I've become quite familiar with how to dodge things the last few years and litigation against me would be a waste of time.

In saying that, I plan to explain to Edward right from the start that while we will do our most to protect the source, accidents happen and wolves in sheep's clothing also happen.

If that's a problem to him, then he does not understand that this is a COMMUNITY project and not some business where we all sit in the same office. Being a community project exposes us to all type of people, some of which will not have the projects best interests at heart.

I hope everyone understands that this may all end up falling apart because of this condition placed on us by Edward and making him understand that we cannot be responsible for it 100% may cause him to retract.
Click to expand...

i know im only a lurker, but how about inviting him to join the community so he can monitor the use/ Distribution of the source code so that they can raise any concerns with you as and when nessercery??

BTW really good news on potentialy getting this as it really could take the mod to a defferent level!! :onya
 
We can't afford to just drop this, mates!
How about my suggestion of distributing it in a password-protected file by e-mail only to just trusted members who know their coding.
More security we cannot possibly provide. It'll ensure there's no download link that could leak.
 
Pieter Boelen said:
We can't afford to just drop this, mates!
How about my suggestion of distributing it in a password-protected file by e-mail only to just trusted members who know their coding.
More security we cannot possibly provide. It'll ensure there's no download link that could leak.
Click to expand...

Im a little unhappy that certain people are deciding who should have what and do what before you even know what language the source code is in! Now considering the game uses Direct X Im going to hazard a guess that its C++ which im not sure anyone on here has any knowledge about so how will those people produce anything better than someone who does know a little C++ but hasn't until recently had as much time to contribute.

remember this is a project that has taken 100s of people not just 3 or 4.

thanks


 
In the first place, we must secure everything that this won't leak. We can't just give it to the right and left because that code still is to be Akella property (it won't be released on, say, GPL licence). Otherwise we won't get it or we can get into trouble if that code would happen to get free.

pirate_kk
 
Well I think it IS C++ and actually I do have a fair bit of experience with that code base. (even if it isnt other code bases people are probably going to be less comfortable with)
Pieter is the modpack leader and will be in charge of the emailing/protection of the code and Pirate_kk is our most experienced coder.

We don't want a leak so only really trusted members will have access (and they will need to be able to use it), we really dont want Akella and Seaward.ru to think they are making the wrong decision (which they aren't) and Im afraid that they need to know that they can trust that we wont leak it so
Im a little unhappy that certain people are deciding who should have what and do what
Click to expand...
Im afraid this is the only way to do this IMO
 
Hi All,
Just a couple of thoughts on this issue:

The engine is really the base to the game and a minor code change error could lead to a lot of other in game problems.

There needs to be a decided strategy as to what is changed and improved so that the amount of code change and fault finding and testing can be streamlined and a good outcome / improvement is achieved.

Limiting the number of coders puts a lot of reponsibility and claims a lot of effort/time from only a couple of people and hence should be undertaken both those who are capable of coding and have the time available.

The number of people involved in actually changing the source code should be limited, however, the ideas for change and for possible improvements should not be limited but needs to be co-ordinated.
 
Guys, I sent Edward an email a couple of weeks ago stating our position and he simple has not replied. Trying to deal with Akella/Edward through this has been like pulling teeth and I get the feeling they were reluctant to hand anything at all over. Unless someone can pull this one out I think we need to move on.

If anyone is interested I will post my email up.
 
This is indeed sad news Keith. Ok, time for a bit of a rant on my part! :)

You would think that with as much as we have done for both Akella and Seaward over the years, they would at least be willing to trust us to keep the code as secure as possible. We supported their games when no one else would. Without us and the fantastic LIB modders over at Ellaybe, both Sea Dogs and POTC would have been completely forgotten by now. We fixed their games, we supported their games, we even publicized their games. How much of our code have they "borrowed" without even an acknowledgment as to where it came from? Or even a thank you for that matter! We did things with their own code that even they themselves thought were impossible!

How many thousands of hours have we as a community put into fixing and supporting their games? I would bet a considerable sum that that total number is much higher than the hours they put into developing and supporting them! Why did we do it? We didn't get paid for it, we never even wanted to be paid for it. All we wanted was a better game, and we gave them that! And now we are even doing the same for COAS, Playlogic's support for the game has been almost nonexistent, and their support forums have been down for months! How many thousands of people would have given up even trying to play these games without our support? Most people don't even register to get support here, they just browse the forums anonymously to find answers to their problems. The fact that we are still here after 7 years proves that they are at least finding some answers!

Their game engine was dated when it hit the market in the first place, and we are a big part of why it is even still in existence! If Pieter's idea for security isn't good enough for them, then screw them! There are other games out there we can always concentrate on supporting and modding! We can even pick one of the open source 3D game engines and develop our own game that way! Not an easy task to be sure, but if we had chosen that path seven years ago, we would have one out by now! I have seen from the start just what this community is capable of, it won't be easy and would take many years, but we CAN do it!

Ok, end of rant! You may now return to your normal forum browsing and ignore me completely. :wp
 
Tragarr, you aren't ignored. I fully agree with you...

I wasn't here from the begining, but I'm sure we would be able to create good game from peace of sh*t... We only need to get that sh*t... And if Akella will give us STORM (wich is more than sh*t, i think), we might make really good game... And I mean good..
 
Thagarr said:
We can even pick one of the open source 3D game engines and develop our own game that way! Not an easy task to be sure, but if we had chosen that path seven years ago, we would have one out by now! I have seen from the start just what this community is capable of, it won't be easy and would take many years, but we CAN do it!
Click to expand...
In my opinion, I don't think we have enough modders available to make a mod from the start. :no

I'm happy to work on POTC and we can make a lot of things with this old game engine in the future.

My main wish is to have a new world map including the American continent... :?
 
Thagarr said:
How much of our code have they "borrowed" without even an acknowledgment as to where it came from? Or even a thank you for that matter!
Click to expand...

I think Russians have that hard coded into them. xD: They seem to do that quite a bit on many things aside from PC games. :urgh

I remember wandering in the COAS directories after installing the game on my old machine and finding lots of stuff I knew had been made by folks on here, yet was either credited to "an unknown creator", nobody at all, or somebody on Seaward's forum!

Guess I'm not really contributing anything here - I just get pissed when I see other people's hard work being swiped, then thrown into something other folks are making money off of. :yes
 
Stallion said:
Thagarr said:
How much of our code have they "borrowed" without even an acknowledgment as to where it came from? Or even a thank you for that matter!
Click to expand...

I think Russians have that hard coded into them. xD: They seem to do that quite a bit on many things aside from PC games. :urgh

I remember wandering in the COAS directories after installing the game on my old machine and finding lots of stuff I knew had been made by folks on here, yet was either credited to "an unknown creator", nobody at all, or somebody on Seaward's forum!

Guess I'm not really contributing anything here - I just get pissed when I see other people's hard work being swiped, then thrown into something other folks are making money off of. :yes
Click to expand...

:gday Hi I am new to this forum, have the game and noticed that funny part of modding it too. Then I stumbled upon this forum. As a hobby cpp developer I think the files of coded isn't cpp but only based upon. None of the code will compile with a (random) c/cpp compiler. A special compiler is build in the engine.exe or one of its dlls, at my best guess.
Having modded some minor parts, mainly the splits in my head about the code, I am trying to get the uncompiled stuff sorted out to avoid compile errors and trying to clean up the code, will get it more stable. Noticed too that some parts are written twice (no not the laguage parts).

:cheers

Have some things to point out thou, really

First of all, getting mad about people making money out of others their work, huh??? POTC is their work, their code and efford. Sorry don't want to offend anyone but they did the work and you have the fun.

Having said that, secondly, they have what we want, so please stop this negativity them. Never throw a door into the face of people you want to come in. Don't be supriced if the walk away now. :rolleyes: Be a good pirate and pray hehe.

Third, they are talking to this community, you know they are a business, they need to eat at home too :facepalm . So count yourself lucky they spent time (=money) for us. The only thing they ask is to get some foundation to give you the code, nothing more. It's not trust they are after just a little security so the competitors won't get their code. It's a cruel :ixi world after all.

Fourth, if you want to take an opensource 3d engine, good luck if you don't know the code. If you can mod this, it doesn't mean you know how to code a program. Will take years to learn. Code and more important mathematics too. Akella has done that for you :keith bouncing all the way from a to z and back from Z to A, enter only text get you baffled, try to write some text -> char or some char* or char** hehe, three things that are exactly the same but entirly different. Just to point(er) something out :shrug

Fifth, and one of the most important here, they offered you marketing. If this community is getting better they are willing to set the PR department on the game you have made with them. Won't that be cool seeying your game in a professional box at the store you are buying other games too 8) . If you succeed, you will get surpriced what they will offer you in a while. Propably no money but maybe some cool modding tools. Keeping you occupied with that thing you like to do. And maybe even expand the relation and offering more games to mod.

Six, that they are talking about sharing the code could be a token of a thank you. They have a (business)name to keep up, so not mentioning you until they are sure of us not getting them down on the market could be a descission well thought of. It's just like you and your boss, if he is happy you keep your job.

and last but certainly not least, it would be cool if they would be a bit quicker and/or more openly towards the modders. Have to agree with that ;)

Hopefully they are still willing to share the code - won't be with the whole community thou - as the game could be improved. But don't think you can do everything then, still limitations. For instace I would like to see is the loading blocks to disappear. Won't happen as the game is based upon it :( (not completly sure about that one yet thou)

Well got to go now, see ya
 
Please forgive me my imbecile breaking with the code of laws in this lovable Parliament of Patience, I did not read all post since page 3. And greetings to all, I bow before you and enjoy the Build 14! :bow

I was thinking...the development has always be hierachial - donations from members are sent to the person in charge of compilling. This person would assemble and compile the donations into one complete package. Right?

Now, would it be possible to divide the source code up into multiple levels as well? I mean, files needed for development would come with a simple or individual password to all actual developers, but in case the source code includes a special compiler for the c/cpp files...it would be possible to hand this key file over to only one person? Say, in order to compile all donations from the members, he or she preferably be a programmer anyway (and I can only think of one longlasting and faithful programmer in here).
 
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