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Notice The Way Forward

Guys, could you move the discussion to a private conversation maybe so we can keep this topic clean for brainstorming of the idea?
 
Pieter Boelen said:
You people do realise that changes are being made and proposed with the specific purpose to get feedback, right?
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I've been trying to give feedback, which is how we got here. ;)

Silently sticking to previous versions without saying anything is RE-TAR-DED!
I think @Hylie Pistof has been doing that at some point and, while he was right at the time because of the performance issues, those have been fixed now and I honestly have NO CLUE why he would still continue to do that.
Seriously, how can we EVER make people happy if they don't tell us HOW?
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There was also the issue of fort memory, which caused him a problem he didn't like. I thought I'd solved that by adding the toggle to disable fort memory if you're friendly, though.

But that's why I don't intend to silently stick to a previous version. As I've said, it will be a last resort, and if it happens then I'll try to explain what triggered it.

That is a joke. An Easter Egg. And hardly a huge issue, because it is easily dealt with. It could be removed if you insist. But seriously, WHY?
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I did include a "cheeky" smiley there to indicate that it was not a serious request to have the albatross removed. Good thing I didn't add the other not-serious suggestion to improve realism, which is to eliminate Portugal (whose colonial interests were somewhat further east due to a treaty with Spain). :cheeky
 
Grey Roger said:
I've been trying to give feedback, which is how we got here. ;)
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And I'm very grateful for that.
But sometimes the discussions seem to go like:
- Person suggests something
- Other person doesn't like it and claims that would ruin the game
- (Often: I suggest, "how about we try it first" or "how about a toggle")
- Panic continues, with threats of leaving and repeats of how much this would ruin the game

That is the point where it isn't fun anymore. The point of "do not like" has already been made by then.
That means we know to be cautious, so then what I prefer to do is continue brainstorming on "so if we DO want to do this, how could we make it as good as it can be?".
Then either we find that "as good as it can be" is:
1. not actually all that good, so we indeed shouldn't do it
2. does have potential, but some people will clearly not like it, so it would need to be linked to Realism/Difficulty/Separate Toggle
3. is a lot of work, so we postpone it for the time being
4. is actually easily accomplished and, after further deliberation, turns out shouldn't actually ruin the game at all and is therefore implemented without a toggle

#4 is a rare case, because with our limited manpower, #3 will be virtually always the more likely scenario.
Even if we do end up going for #4, still no actual decision has been made. It just means we add it for testing and final implementation depends on feedback received afterwards.
Then we can still decide to revert it, add a toggle or make further improvements.

As long as the above happens like it is meant to, none of these scenarios should lead to the game actually becoming terrible for anyone.
Except maybe for a short period during which we test it, but that is why we then need feedback as soon as possible so that we can rectify whatever issues come to light.

Grey Roger said:
There was also the issue of fort memory, which caused him a problem he didn't like.
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That was indeed a very real issue. Though not technically wrong (the game code was doing what it was intended and written to do VERY exactly), I definitely understood that coming as a surprise to him.
The chances of all variables lining up to trigger that were very small though, so it should never have happened very often one way or another.

Of course I did give, if I recall, three quick workarounds to the issue at the time.
I myself would have wanted to handle a proper fix quite complicatedly and I didn't have time to actually do that, so I am glad you managed to find a simple proper solution though.
As far as I'm aware, that should indeed take care of that one and I'm very glad to have that addressed like you did. :onya

Grey Roger said:
Good thing I didn't add the other not-serious suggestion to improve realism, which is to eliminate Portugal (whose colonial interests were somewhat further east due to a treaty with Spain). :cheeky
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Really the only reason why Portugal is there is because it was in the original game for some reason and why remove something that doesn't do much harm being there?
But a toggle would certainly be possible. :shrug
 
I sugest we change the Brainstorm subforum a bit to make things easier to understand:

We make a Brainstorm subforum and a Discussion forum. Idea's will always be sugested in the Brainstorm subforum first. They get a Suffix which says something like "Brainstorming". In here people can not complain about the idea. It's just to develop the idea and suggest options to it. After a while someone will give an overview of the suggested idea's.
Now the topic will be changed to "Voting" where the different options etc are placed in a Poll which also has the option "Do not change at all" or something like that. After a while we look at the voting.
Now the topic goes to the Discussion subforum with the suffix like "Discussion" where the general idea will be layed out and here people can talk about the details. So the details of the idea's can be discussed, this could be stuff like variables but also ways of implementing it etc. In this period it might sometimes be needed to do some tests. If this is the case the topic will go to a "testing" phase. Where elements of the idea are implemented in the WIP version of the mod. Users will be notified ingame by things like onscreen messages to give feedback.
At one point there will be a "Greenlit" status. Here a poll is created again. The full idea is presented and people can vote if this idea should be implemented or not. ofcourse if the community says Yes there is still the possebility for the one making it to veto agains it at one point because he might encounter problems. Or he might need to do things differently, if this is the case it will be returned to the topic so it can be discussed further. But In most cases I hope that when the greenlit phase is reached the code is actually written already but might be in a crude state or maybe needs some spell checking or texture work etc.

Ofcourse this will only be done by very large suggestions. But a lot of suggestions which are done can often be pulled together into 1 big idea. For some smaller ideas we can speed up the process and probably go to a Greenlit phase very quickly.
 
Levis said:
We make a Brainstorm subforum and a Discussion forum. Idea's will always be sugested in the Brainstorm subforum first. They get a Suffix which says something like "Brainstorming". In here people can not complain about the idea. It's just to develop the idea and suggest options to it. After a while someone will give an overview of the suggested idea's.
Click to expand...
Any thread marked as "Feature Request" is, by definition, only that: a request. It doesn't become real until it is "Planned" and/or a priority has been assigned.

The idea is that from "Feature Request", either it goes to "Abandoned", is moved to the Build 15 List OR is planned/prioritized.
While we have discussed a lot over the past few weeks, not a single one of those ideas has officially been marked as "planned".

So the process you describe is already in place in a way, but I'm not sure if everyone quite understands how it works.

Similar to the above, once a feature IS "Planned"/prioritized and remains on the Beta and Brainstorming forum itself,
that means that we do believe it should be done and the only reason why it hasn't been done yet is the usual lack of time/manpower.

Maybe a bit confusingly, "WIP" doesn't mean it is approved. It just means that somebody decided to actually do something.
Clear example is this one: WIP - Increase Difficulty for Governor Ship Hunting at Higher Ranks | PiratesAhoy!
We never agreed that is a good idea and I honestly don't know if it is. But somebody asked about it and, with a single additional line of code, it can be tested.
So it is "WIP" for the simple reason that a code change is available with which to try it, obviously with the hope of getting the desired feedback to find out if it works out the way it is intended to.
It isn't "Included in Build" though, nor is it on the Testing List, nor is it otherwise archived, so it is in no way "final".

Until something is in the Features Archive, it is still awaiting feedback, which applies to EVERYTHING still on the Testing List:
Build Testing List | PiratesAhoy!
In other words: Nothing there is final! Though we may start archiving things again soon, because nobody does ever bother to comment on it.

Even once something has been Archived, we can still reopen it if it turns out there is a need for it.
 
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i agree with Levis in his last post
and i would be glad to be maybe a beta tester for the features before making them known to players Pieter Boelen
and for the player who stop playing the game ....mmmm.....well its their "LOSS" i would like to personally see any of the thing you said (i want the diplomacy idea the most and managing your colony with more depth) and any other possible to add feature to the game lets do it!!!
and i respect everyone and their opinions but please stop hating XD chao chao !!cya!!
 
Imado, technically you are a beta tester for features not ready for public consumption right now if you are playing 4.1 WIP ;) Which brings up an important question:

What is the relative size of release players on modDB vs players who download the WIP here (but lurk and don't comment)?

A) If the moddb release players are 10x the amount here, then we should be more bold with beta test releases, incorporating new features and trying them out, changing balance, even if we expect many will be removed or need a lot of work. Because the ultimate purpose of the beta test releases is to try things out that we aren't yet comfortable being final, and get info, to prepare for that release.

B) If the moddb release players are roughly the size of the WIP players here, then essentially the WIP has become the main release mechanism by another name, and we should be more cautious.

Of course, even if A is the case, too few beta testers because some have switched to release versions due to changes would be a serious problem. But ultimately players not ready to try potentially bad changes should be using the release. So we could continue Pieter's promotional efforts in the specific direction of raising awareness of the WIP and trying to draw in new beta testers from the release players group on moddb (even just replying to everyone who comments on moddb with "hey, you should come check out the latest work in progress version at our forums!" Will probably get a lot of takers. People who like mods like to have the latest thing).

Either way, we should be very cautious with full releases, always including toggles and removing features we are unsure of, but I think doing this at the outset for the beta test WIP releases is a bit backwards. We have to be somewhat bold with the beta test, that's the whole point of it not being a release.

Unless, again, the betatest has become the defacto release. That's a question best answered by download numbers I suppose.
 
It is always very difficult to determine how many non-commenting players are out there, specifically because they are silent.

Of course the WIP contains both important fixes AND experiments at the same time.
This is less than ideal, since I can imagine people do want the fixes, but not all would be willing to deal with the experiments
Which is fair enough, but does complicate matters.

Last time we talked about this, I basically stated I am willing to do releases for one version, not both.
So if there is a true desire for a more fix based and another more experiment based version, we need a second person.
At the time nobody was willing to step in, but now maybe @Levis can take care of the more experimental side with his ZIPs?

In the meantime, ever since the release of Beta 4.0, my focus has been very much on maintaining a stable and playable game version.
As such, a fair few very promising experiments by @Mere_Mortal never made their way into any mod update, because of the potential risk of things breaking.

Likewise, there are some things that I've wanted to do myself for what feels like an eternity (updated Reputation system!!!), but I've delayed that for over a year now for the specific reason of not messing things up with that right now.
In other words: I've been sacrificing my own development fun for over a year for the good of the community.

If that isn't proof enough for those people who fear we're trying to mess things up, I honestly don't know what is.

I will admit the Soldier Weapons at Sea seems to have been a failed experiment again, despite my additional efforts on the second improved try.
But at least we now know for sure that it isn't going to work in its current state and I'll undo that, again, with the next update that I post.
It's only a single line of code anyway, so that is hardly a huge change.

I'd hope that, based on the above, everyone here would be able to at least trust that I do indeed try to do whatever is best for every single person in the community.
Because that *is* exactly what I do try, so a bit of trust and appreciation for those efforts would not be unwelcome.
 
Pieter,

You are very much appreciated and are a wonderful leader for the project. :) I am sure everyone is thankful for the work you do, and if people get sensitive or worried about changes at times, it itself reflects on how amazing and wonderful this mod is, and how important the work you do is as well. People care deeply about the mod, and that is a testament to your work and that of Levis and the rest of the team. :)

I also think your push for greater realism to be explored is great! I think when realism doesn't conflict with fun, then realism makes the mod MORE fun. So I personally don't like the idea of, say, combat fatigue, or too much equipment changes, because I think the current unrealistic aspects are fun (though if they do happen, I'll try them out and provide feedback of course). But I am really wonderfully excited about all sorts of potential realistic changes that are fun, like making the world stop determining difficulty by player level, and your proposed reputation loyalty system, because they would make it more fun! They would be challenging in some ways, but in the way that rewards the player for being smart and adaptive.

Thanks for all your work Pieter. :)
 
I'd strongly recommend everyone to have a look at this here:
Discussion - Releasing Future Modpack Versions | PiratesAhoy!
It would not surprise me if these concerns that crop up again now are a direct result of that particular issue having remained unresolved.

What we need are a separate "playable fixes only" and a "progress and experiments" version.
To accomplish that, we need two separate people to take care of the two.
Until that happens, it will always remain a struggle.

And since having only one person means that person is me, I will continue to give precedence to fixes and simple stuff as opposed to anything potentially risky.
That is not actually my own personal preference, but that is what I will do anyway for the good of the Community.

That is a promise and if ever you think I may have failed on that, speak up and I *will* roll things back.

-----------------

The above being said, I also strongly urge everyone to look very seriously into that Version Control thread I started yesterday.
I notice a distinct lack of responses there, but that is a very powerful tool now available to us to simplify development, being able to roll back failed changes and to keep experimental stuff on a separate branch from the stable stuff.

In other words: Very, VERY important!
So please give it the attention it deserves.

-------------

As a final point and as @Tingyun also hinted at, promotion for our work outside this forum is also extremely valuable.
That could lead to more developers, more testers and more feedback, which makes everything far easier.

But we need extra support for that. I cannot and will not do the promotion by myself in addition to those other things I'd also need to do.

--------------

So you want the community to continue as well as we can, the following are crucial:
- Separation between stable updates and unofficial experiments
- Two different people to take care of this
- Support by ALL developers for Version Control (@Levis, @Grey Roger, @Jack Rackham, @Tingyun and anyone else who wants to be involved)
- Someone to support promotional efforts outside the forum, ideally multiple people (no coding knowledge required!)
- If you cannot contribute to any of the above, at least provide any and all feedback that you can. Remaining silent is not acceptable. Additionally, backdoor politics through PMs are also not appreciated unless sent directly to Site Admins (e.g. mainly @Armada, @Thagarr and of course myself).
- We have this forum for a reason, we talk about things here for a reason, so make use of it. After all, when I post questions here, it tends to be because I actually want an answer. So even when you don't think you have much to say, say it anyway!
- On the other hand, once a point has been clearly made, you may trust that it WILL be taken into account, one way or another. No threats necessary and neither is there a need to state the same things over and over. All within reason.
- In the end, trust that we (especially I!) do actually try to do the right thing (with the past 10 years serving as proof that I'm not just saying this)

That is what this community truly needs.
And therefore I'm going to make the above my conditions for my remaining involvement here.
If this is too much to ask, then expecting me to continue my efforts is ALSO too much to ask.
 
Pieter:

I am very willing to learn to use the new update system, and properly start logging everything I do into it. However, I probably won't be doing anything further in modding before I leave for my trip, so I'm going to wait to learn until returning.

In the meantime, I spammed moddb with mentions of the beta version, so maybe we'll generate some interest. I can try to keep an eye on moddb now and then.

I think @imado552 is very enthusiastic, and might also be willing to help with promotion. Maybe he can spread the word a bit among his Mount and Blade friends and in other gaming circles?

Meanwhile, instead of maintaining a wholly separate experimental version, why not just an experimental forum section, where anyone can post any modification to be tried out, and people can try it out or not and report back? I think among the players Imado, myself, and @Eskhol have all recently shown willingness to separately install small files or fixes and report back on how we like them. I think people could just post a change there, tag a few people, and we'd get some feedback. Also has the virtue of there not needing to be ANY quality control of what gets tried, anyone can post their personal modification and solicit feedback, and if it seems interesting I'd bet people will try it out. I certainly would.
 
hi Pieter Boelen i tried to take a look at that tool you posted last time and it looked a little bit complicated (or maybe that's just me) but i think i will get to know it better in the future
and by the way i would really be happy to help you in organizing and promoting in my work people i know and sites that i'm in i can use some tricks like would you like a feature of this amazing mod for this amazing game by this amazing team in my mod...etc and if you want to check the game you can see it here and give some feedback for the team they are working hard and tell me your opinions if i should add them even if i'm not considering adding anything XD
i can help you as well (after organizing my time with university i can always take a look) in those separated zips i can take charge of the new features zips and testing as well as others who are testing them if you just guide me !!!
and i did read your posted article earlier and i agree with it i was confused for a time before i knew where i was XD
maybe do as Levis said sub forums
we can even like make some events and competitions like for example try your best to create a feature for the game and if it was good and got a nice feedback we shall add it i used this style to get a feedback for my work with my team , people will like to show off their skills and they will get people to see their works ....etc and the circles will go without stoping more people to show off their skills more people they bring with them more feedback we can get on here and you can get the chance to promote your game as well (if it works)
Tingyun thanks for your words, i try to do what i like to do to my best!!
i think recruiting more people will help you and help us do things easier you will get more free time for your lives and we get more lively and active community where we enjoy to do what we like
this is what i think i have more and more ideas i don't know if i should propose but i'll stick with these for the moment chao chao !!!
 
As Tingyun said, I'm willing to try any experimental version or any modifications in the files so if anyone needs someone to try anything just mention me and I'll look it up. I won't have much time now because I have to get back to work but I'll still be able to test them and report back.
 
Great! So Imado, Eskhol, and I are all down for trying experimental modifications of anything when tagged.

And Imado is going to lead efforts in his gaming communities to promote the mod and recruit more people to play the betatest version! That's wonderful Imado! :)
 
The support is much appreciated, gents!

Maybe some of the confusion stems also from the fact that I myself have a very clear idea of the process flow from "bug report/feature request" to actual implementation, but this may not be equally clear to everyone else.
So next week I'll try to chart the way this process is meant to work and hopefully that will put to rest these apparent concerns.
At the very least that will clearly indicate how "stuff being proposed" and stuff being done" does not equal "final decisions already made for modpack implementation".
There are several crucial steps inbetween that apparently are easily missed.

In the end, we don't have that many active members here, so I value every single one we DO have.
I may not always agree with their words, but I consider that to be a good thing.
In the end, having the best input from everyone leads to a modpack with far greater variety and flexibility than merely a singular vision could ever accomplish.
And that is the way I like it!
 
@Pieter Boelen I still need to read the rest but if you really want to work on the reputation system I'd say we try to get this public release out of the way as quick as possible and from then on go for it. I still want to do a dynamic economy and trade system so if we both start to mess things up at once we will at least get some feedback :p.
 
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