Discussion Some after-game thoughts/comments

[smrtwhkd]

Hi this latest update has been great. Much more stable than previous versions. I love it! However, just a few comments and feedback to the game-play aspect of this mod:

Observation #1: Cultist Heavy Frigate vs Fast War Galleon: The former is a level 3 ship which is pretty thoroughly outclassed by a level 4 ship (please see the screen shots attached). The fast war galleon is faster, more maneuverable and has heavier guns, much higher HP and load capacity. The only thing that heavy frigate can boast is its higher number of guns, but 2 extra guns per side can hardly make up the difference in other areas. Not only that. Both ships are quest captures: the former from "Strange things going on in Caribbeans" and latter from "Nigel Blythe". So you go through a long winding quest chain to get a ship that's shittier than one from a much shorter chain. Effort-reward is hardly comparable. On top of that, not to mention a much luxurious and roomier captain cabin for a 36-gun galleon.

PS: I noticed that probably only early explorer storylines such as Ardent has fast war galleon in its Nigel Blythe quest chain. But this level 4 is way better than some of the level 3 ships. Probably should consider tune it down bit? Perhaps, keep its high load capacity, but reduce its speed, maneuverability and gun size and battery size. Also, 12 pounder is a bit underwhelming for a heavy frigate. I see some 20gun pirate frigate (which is level 5 ship) has 18 pounder.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

only early explorer storylines such as Ardent

That's not Early Explorers, is it?

But this level 4 is way better than some of the level 3 ships.

The Ship Tiers are determined by one parameter and one parameter alone:
The maximum crew capacity:

        // Armada: Ship Tier Mod -->
        refShip.Class = 1;
        if(sti(refShip.MaxCrew) < 900)    refShip.Class = 2;
        if(sti(refShip.MaxCrew) < 550)    refShip.Class = 3;
        if(sti(refShip.MaxCrew) < 400)    refShip.Class = 4;
        if(sti(refShip.MaxCrew) < 250)    refShip.Class = 5;
        if(sti(refShip.MaxCrew) < 100)    refShip.Class = 6;
        if(sti(refShip.MaxCrew) <  60)    refShip.Class = 7;
        if(sti(refShip.MaxCrew) <  30)    refShip.Class = 8;
        [...]
        // Armada: Ship Tier Mod <--

Problem is that once you try classifying ships, sooner or later you WILL run into inconsistencies; or stuff that people just disagree on.
So one day, @Armada had the bright idea to just simply it all the way down to the barest bones.

 

[smrtwhkd]

Maybe, we can classify ship based on load capacity rather than MaxCrew. Heavier/larger ship would undoubtedly warrant a larger load capacity. But, my main point is less of a ship classification, but more on game-play experience. Perhaps, you shouldn't award a player with such a good ship as "fast war galleon" for a relatively easier quest. Also, perhaps just simply up-gun the heavy frigate. Seriously, 12pounder for heavy frigate is a little underwhelming. Many lighter frigates have 18pounder to start off. And going to Vanderdeken to solve the problem is a little like cheating. I kinda avoid that route now.

 

[smrtwhkd]

Observation #2:
Again, just another game-play aspect comment. Nicholas Sharp's sword is way too good for such an easy quest (you don't even need to leave the town). And you can get it at relatively low level. Compared that to Drake's sword, which requires accomplishment of a much longer and more difficult quest, it's a bit out of league. One might counter the argument that Drake's sword provide +1 melee. But by the time you get to that stage where you can accomplish this quest, your melee is already pretty high with tons of +melee items; probably near level 10 anyway. +1 melee is pretty much useless for a such mid-late game sword. Same logic goes for Katana sword from "Strange things in Caribbeans" . Katana's stats are pretty garbage. I don't know who would ever use such a non-purchasable sword, given so many other way better swords out there. Both Drake and Katana as well as the Cortes sword from "Hard labor of assassin" are basically souvenirs you keep in you chest.

 

[The Nameless Pirate]

From what I remember in the stock game I used NS's sword, and then switched to the one from the Strange Things questline.
Perhaps the Katana could get better stats? For such a sword to be used in the Caribbean and not switched to another one it has to be quite a good weapon.

 

[smrtwhkd]

From what I remember in the stock game I used NS's sword, and then switched to the one from the Strange Things questline.
Perhaps the Katana could get better stats? For such a sword to be used in the Caribbean and not switched to another one it has to be quite a good weapon.

In the stock game, there was no Katana. It was some other sword you find in one of the chests. But anyway, I totally agree with you. Katana needs much better stats. In the meantime, NS sword needs to be nerfed.

 

[smrtwhkd]

Observation #3:
AI in your fleet doesn't seem to use other ammo types except regular ball shots. I tested it by limiting my other ships with chain shots and grape shots only. Then they just sit there doing nothing. But I noticed enemy AI do use other ammo types. My mast was once shot away by a pirate sloop using chain shots. But I am not sure if this is something fixable by the mod. Maybe already hard coded by the stock game.

 

[smrtwhkd]

Observation #4:
Discrepancy in the number of guns between stats screen and actual ship in 3D world for heavy frigate. The stats screen shows 42 guns, with 18 per side. The actual count in 3D world is 19 guns per side, with 44 in total (2X19 + 2 forward chasers and 4 stern chasers). Please see the screen shots attached.

 

[smrtwhkd]

Observation #5:
On Centurion class 4th rate, there is no way to access the bow of the ship. Probably need put a ladder there so that one can get up to the bow.

 

[smrtwhkd]

Observation #6:
Is there any way to allow street vendors to sell foods and rum? Sometime when you run out of food and if you reputation and relations are extremely bad (such as Terror of High Sea), store owners don't sell you food and rum then you basically get stuck on the island. Perhaps let street vendors sell food and rum at a much higher price (like a black market).

 

[Grey Roger]

Fast war galleon: the real ship was designed by Spain as a counter to the English fast war galleons, though England doesn't use them in the game later than "Spanish Main" period. The point is, they were designed to be fast, agile and heavily armed. Reducing their speed and turn rate to that of a regular galleon would defeat the entire reason for their existence. And changing ship rating to be based on capacity rather than crew size would not work as it would be the merchant ships which would then be tier 1 and 2!

Swords: both Francis Drake's sword and Cortes' sword have the advantage that they never degrade. Personally I always use Francis Drake's sword in preference to Nicholas Sharp's sword for this reason. The katana was originally intended as a starting sword for a character designed by someone with a liking for anime, which is why it was given relatively low stats. That character was never developed and the katana is now used by the boss Satanist, so it's definitely worth upgrading.

Ship AI: enemy ships will sometimes switch to chain-shot if they're trying to run away. Your companions don't try to run away, neither do they surrender.

Satanist heavy frigate: the number of guns is accurate. You've circled one of the bow chasers.

Street vendors selling food and rum - not going to happen. The entire point of making stores check your relation and reputation is to make it harder for you when you're in a hostile port. If you're an evil pirate at war with every civilised nation, make sure to stock up well whenever you're in a pirate colony! (In any case, if you've gone all the way down to "Horror of the High Seas" then stores should trade with you regardless of relation. If Blackbeard walks into a store and actually wants to pay for things, the storekeeper isn't going to argue!)

 

[smrtwhkd]

Fast war galleon: the real ship was designed by Spain as a counter to the English fast war galleons, though England doesn't use them in the game later than "Spanish Main" period. The point is, they were designed to be fast, agile and heavily armed. Reducing their speed and turn rate to that of a regular galleon would defeat the entire reason for their existence. And changing ship rating to be based on capacity rather than crew size would not work as it would be the merchant ships which would then be tier 1 and 2!

I don't know how historically Spanish did to their fast war galleon. It seems they have found a solution for a wonder weapon. That ship is not only fast, maneuverable, and pack a heavy punch with their main battery of heavy guns but also has a huge belly like a merchant. On top of that, the HP (as a an proxy for hull strength) outmatches other comparable ships by a big margin. Fast, maneuverable, heavy gun battery, huge load capacity and high hull strength, this ship is having the best of ALL WORLDS! I am not old enough but I know nothing in this world is free. You can put more and heavy guns on board and have more living room for the crew, but you have to sacrifice cargo capacity for that. You can have stronger hull which means using heavier material and more structural strength, both of which means heavier ship and less maneuverability and lower speed. Also in terms of classification by max crew, something is not right there. The fast war galleon has higher max crew than many of the T3 frigate and yet is still classified as T4. You can see from my screenshots at the top: heavy frigate has 420 max crew (T3) vs 440 for fast war galleon (T4). There are other ways for classifications. Some of the suggestions would be:

1. By firepower: use the product of the number guns and max gun caliber number.
2. By hull strength: obviously bigger and tougher warships would have higher hull value

My last point is more about the balance of risk-reward for quests. Fast war galleon is too good a ship to give to a quest like Nigel Blythe. Give some kinda 20-gun or 30-gun pirate frigate to that quest would be more appropriate.

 

[smrtwhkd]

Satanist heavy frigate: the number of guns is accurate. You've circled one of the bow chasers.

Nope. I am NOT counting the bow chasers. Please see the screenshot attached here. I have highlighted the bow chaser in yellow and side battery in white for you. Remember this ship only has 2 bow chasers, one on each side so the other one is not visible in this picture. 1X bow chaser and 19X side battery guns.

 

[Grey Roger]

Fast war galleon vs. Satanist frigate: in "Ships_init.c", the fast war galleon has a base crew of 390, putting it just inside the 400 limit for tier 4. The Satanist frigate has a base crew of 420. The Satanist frigate, being a quest special, is listed as "unique", which among other things means that it gets exactly what is in "Ships_init.c". The fast war galleon is not. Non-unique ships get a bit of randomisation so that no two ships are exactly alike, and on top of that, yours is French, and French ships get a 15% boost to maximum crew. The easiest fix would probably be to give the fast war galleon another 10 base maximum crew in "Ships_init.c" for a total of 400, which would put it into tier 3.

Satanist frigate's guns: I see it now. I was looking at the model in GM Viewer, which can show locators, including firing locators for cannons. The two on the main gun deck nearest the bow have no firing locators, and a black gunport without a firing locator doesn't show up well on a black hull! They're also angled at 45 degrees. It would be easy enough to add firing locators and change "Ships_init.c" to match, the question then being, which way should they fire, bearing in mind that the game can only fire directly ahead or to the side? Should these guns fire forwards, giving it four bow chasers? Or should they fire to the side for an extra cannon in each broadside? ("Corvette47" also has two guns angled at 45 degrees which are included in the broadside. So I'm inclined to make these guns on the Satanist frigate fire to the side as well.)

Nigel Blythe: find me an alternative and I'll use it. It must be available in the earlier periods ("Early Explorers", "Spanish Main", "Golden Age of Piracy"); it must be available to pirates; and for preference it should look like a pirate ship. In later periods it's a pirate corvette, but that's not available before "Colonial Powers". A fluyt-of-war would work but doesn't look like a pirate ship. Besides, you don't get the ship for free, you have to capture it.

 

[smrtwhkd]

@Greg.
If you bump fast war galleon into tier 3, that would do the trick. Maybe reducing a bit cargo capacity and max hull value would be golden. Btw, where can you find out the information about national specialty on ships? I also notice French ships usually have more crew and higher max hull point. Seems like English one is faster or something.

For Satanist frigate. Just make that 45 degree gun one of the side guns and be done with it . We are not doing rocket science here. Don't need be that precise. It's close enough to the other side guns anyway. Make it 44-gun frigate with 19 each on the side. If you can give it 18 pdr gun as the baseline as opposed to current 12pdr, that would be golden. That would even the game balance a bit. Satanist frigate, smaller, lower capacity but more guns compared to fast war galleon, bigger, heavier ship, higher capacity but lower gun number. Isn't that a good story to tell? I can live with that 44X18pdr frigate vs 38X18pdr fast war galleon. At least I won't feel the sour taste in my mouth after going through all the trouble to finish "Strange things in Caribbeans" and end up with a shittier ship than Nigel Blythe. As you said, Satanish frigate is a special.

Nigel Blythe quest: remember "Search for Peter Blood's Ship" quest. At the end you will end up with Blood's ship Arella (forgot the name), that's a 20-gun frigate with 18pdr. Pretty darn good ship and it IS a pirate frigate. I believe it fits perfectly to your requirements:
1. Look like a pirate ship? Yes.
2. Availability? Yes. At least in Ardent storyline. I have seen other pirates using that ship besides Peter Blood in that story. But if you are so concerned, make the Nigel Blythe quest disappear in those periods.
3. Address risk-reward game balance issue? Yes

Just use a similar one for Nigel Blythe quest.

 

[smrtwhkd]

Going back to your earlier list:

AI ship firing other types of ammo: I am ok with the AI tactic. But if you sell off all other ammo and just leave it with chain shots, it won't fire as if their eyes can only see balls in their magazine lockers. In real life, you would probably fire off anything you can get your hands on, plates, forks or even jewelry, just like what happened in "Pirates of Caribbeans". Maybe there should a logic in the code somewhere to prioritize ammo types, always fire the longest ranged shots in possession. If not balls or bombs, go with chain then grapes in that order. Just a thought, not sure if that's doable in code.

Sword: I am ok if you keep Drake and Cortes as they are. But reduce the stats for NS sword a bit. This goes back the risk-reward game balance issue. The sword is too good for that quest. You don't need to leave the town to complete that quest.

You sure about "Terror of the high sea"? I got rejected. You mean "Terror of the high sea" and "Horror of the high sea" are 2 different things/levels?

 

[Grey Roger]

For national bonuses, look at the top of "Ships_init.c".

The cargo capacity of the fast war galleon is already reduced compared to the fast galleon, which has only 9 pdr guns and is also faster than the war version.

The Satanist frigate needs to have 12 pdr cannons for balance! That's the Satanist ship in "Golden Age of Piracy" and "Colonial Powers" periods. In "Early Explorers" and "Spanish Main", you get the Satanist Fluyt of War because frigates of that type didn't exist that early, and as it has fewer guns than the frigate, it gets 18 pdr guns to make up the difference. Besides, don't forget that the ship isn't your only reward. There's the katana, which is getting double damage and piercing in the next update, plus a lot of reputation points.

"Ardent" is set in the "Golden Age of Piracy" period. The ship in the "Peter Blood's Ship" quest for that period is "SP_Postillionen", which is not available in "Early Explorers" or "Spanish Main". It's also rather weak compared to the corvette which you get from "Nigel Blythe" in "Colonial Powers" and later.

Disabling "Nigel Blythe" in the earlier periods is not an option. There are two other excellent storylines set in "Spanish Main" so we don't want to deprive players of those stories from the quest. Also, "Nigel Blythe" is tied to "Artois Voysey" - the first time you enter Pirate Settlement, you see them fighting and choose which of the two quests you want. Disabling "Nigel Blythe" would mean disabling "Artois Voysey" as well.

And I still say that the risk-reward balance is not an issue because you have to fight and capture the ship, unlike "Peter Blood's Ship" where you get the ship after one simple boarding fight. It's no more an imbalance than being able to get any warship you like if you can find and capture it.

 

[Grey Roger]

You sure about "Terror of the high sea"? I got rejected. You mean "Terror of the high sea" and "Horror of the high sea" are 2 different things/levels?

"Bloody Terror" is the second lowest reputation. "Horror of the High Seas" is the lowest. "Bloody Terror" does not get the special treatment in stores. You're not scary enough yet!

As for ship AI, perhaps if you have not given your companion ship any cannonballs, the captain thinks you don't want him to fight.

 

[smrtwhkd]

The Satanist frigate needs to have 12 pdr cannons for balance! That's the Satanist ship in "Golden Age of Piracy" and "Colonial Powers" periods. In "Early Explorers" and "Spanish Main", you get the Satanist Fluyt of War because frigates of that type didn't exist that early, and as it has fewer guns than the frigate, it gets 18 pdr guns to make up the difference. Besides, don't forget that the ship isn't your only reward. There's the katana, which is getting double damage and piercing in the next update, plus a lot of reputation points.

"Ardent" is set in the "Golden Age of Piracy" period. The ship in the "Peter Blood's Ship" quest for that period is "SP_Postillionen", which is not available in "Early Explorers" or "Spanish Main". It's also rather weak compared to the corvette which you get from "Nigel Blythe" in "Colonial Powers" and later.

I am not so sure about "SP_Postillionen". I got a 6th rate frigate as shown in the screenshot below. I have seen pirate using better frigate than that Blood's ship in Ardent storyline. Anyways, I believe there is definitely one for you to use. Also, you worried about "SP_Postillionen" being weak compared to corvette, but then what about corvette being weaker than fast war galleon. I am pretty sure the logic flows both directions. Lastly, I think you will do yourself a lot of disservice by trying equalizing things across storylines. You should make things more balanced and comparable vertically (within the storyline) rather than horizontally (across the different storylines). Different ages have different ships and challenges. An underdog in one storyline might be a superhero in another. If all the navies are using normal frigates like Dryser, Raa, the Satanist might be more than adequate. But if you are facing navies packed with Fast War Galleons then the story might be totally different. As the current thing stands, fast war galleon is way better than Satanist frigate.

 

[Grey Roger]

I am not so sure about "SP_Postillionen". I got a 6th rate frigate as shown in the screenshot below.

That is "SP_Postillionen", though it shows up as "6th Rate Frigate" in the game.

I have seen pirate using better frigate than that Blood's ship in Ardent storyline. Anyways, I believe there is definitely one for you to use. Also, you worried about "SP_Postillionen" being weak compared to corvette, but then what about corvette being weaker than fast war galleon. I am pretty sure the logic flows both directions.

Indeed it does, which means replacing the pirate fast war galleon with the 6th rate frigate doesn't balance the game, it just creates the same imbalance in a different direction.

Lastly, I think you will do yourself a lot of disservice by trying equalizing things across storylines. You should make things more balanced and comparable vertically (within the storyline) rather than horizontally (across the different storylines). Different ages have different ships and challenges. An underdog in one storyline might be a superhero in another.

Exactly so. The pirate in "Nigel Blythe" is an underdog in later periods (when he only has a corvette) and a superhero in others (when he has a fast galleon). However, there may be a compromise.

@Bartolomeu o Portugues: the pirate fast galleon was originally for Roche Brasiliano in the "Assassin" storyline. How about making it a variant of the Fast Galleon, not the war version? The non-war Fast Galleon is faster than the war version, has a bigger cargo capacity, and has maximum gun size 9, making it ideal for a pirate who wants to plunder merchants and run away from warships. Moreover, the pirate fast galleon carries 18lb carronades by default, which are fine for a ship with maximum gun size 9 and seriously underpowered for a fast war galleon which can carry 18lb long guns.