Ship Classification System

[Armada]

:gday everyone!

We've recently got to a point in the Mod where we can't quite decide what to do with the ship class system.
As you may know, various modifications have already been made to it, mostly by Oberleutnant, in his endeavour to balance the game further.
And recently I've taken it upon myself to modify his work slightly, in various ways described below.

Oberleutnant's system is a complete reworking of the original class system, designed to balance gameplay for all types of players.
For this he divided all the ships into 3 categories:
- Merchant, in which the ships' sole purpose is to ferry cargo to and fro (rated by capacity)
- Military, in which the ships are designed solely for battle (rated by guns)
- and Balanced, in which the ships are good all-rounders for merchant and military requirements. (rated by all-round ability)
As well as categorising them, he also redesigned the stats for each ship, to ensure a flowing and equal system.
One of his main goals was to ensure that all players can progress from class 8 all the way up to class 1 ships, in each category.
So now there are 1st class merchant and balanced ships, as well as military ones.
In addition, he implemented different paths to take within the categories, for example in the Military group, one can choose their path as either a frigate captain or a ship-of-the-line captain, with class 1 ships in each case.

My system comprises of a very similar idea to his.
I have preserved his Merchant and Balanced categories and classes within them, but have reworked the Military one.
I have now renamed it to the 'Navy' category, in which it follows the original Royal Navy Rating System of the Napoleonic Wars.
This now puts the ships in a steady flow from class 8 to class 1, exactly as they would be at the time, rated strictly by their number of guns.
This was to add maximum historical accuracy into the system, while preserving the balanced feel of the categories as a whole, as one can still choose their path in any of them, and rank up as before.
The only difference being that in the Navy category, the only 1st class ships have 100+ guns, and there is not an option to level up to class 1 frigates, for example, which is true to reality.

So the real difference here is 'Highly balanced, less historical accuracy' versus 'Less balanced, more historical accuracy'
And so far, we've not decided on one as being the better option, as they both have positive and negative sides to them.
Our only speculated solutions have been to:
1) put BOTH systems in the game, with a toggle in the 'Options' menu.
2) ignore the RN Rating system in the classes, and just put a Rate in each Navy ship's name, preserving only the balanced system.
3) (least likely) choose one to ignore entirely!

So now it's over to you, the vast PA! community to decide; what would you prefer in the ship class system?
All comments and/or suggestions are very much appreciated.

If you have any queries about any of this, post here as well and I or someone else will try to answer it.

For visual reference, please refer to the attached Excel file:
[attachment=5217:Ship Mod- edited version.xls]

EDIT: file now includes changes made for Assassin and Bartolomeu storyline issues.

 

[Jason]

I vote for the historically accurate system but would be happy either way.

 

[Armada]

I vote for the historically accurate system but would be happy either way.

Aha, I knew I wasn't the only one!

 

[salonikasurf]

I like the idea of both via an option toggle - that way we don't loose anybody's work.

 

[FireBat]

I will ALWAYS prefer historical accurateness..ness..ness (gotta love sp) Especially all the work that was put into making the time periods for build 14...why would historical accuracy be less important now.

However, I am sure the build seeks to allow the highest number of players to enjoy it. An option is a good idea, that way if players wish to expierence a more balanced game, then it can be done. However, i think that the ramification of the option should be stated as well. Apart from the modders, it is not likely that general players know the ramifications of the different options available.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

That is very much true, Firebat!
And probably one of the main reasons why I'd prefer coming up with one solution rather than two with a toggle.

Whatever the classification of a ship, you can always capture any ship on default settings.
However, if the ship outclasses you, you will not be able to sail the ship as efficiently as otherwise.
So imagine a situation where a player who can efficiently command a class 4 ship captures a frigate.
Gameplay-wise, would we want that player to be able to sail the ship on full efficiency or do we reckon you should need to level up some more for that?
I think that is basically the question that we're asking here.

Please correct me if my reasoning doesn't make sense to you,
but wouldn't it be safe to assume that historical correctness for navy ship classification would be most important to players who play as a navy character?
If that is the case, we might want to consider in which way such a player should be getting his larger ships.
Right now, if you join a nation, your promotions allow you to buy new classes of ships based on the class setting.
For approximately every two promotions, a new class becomes available.

So imagine that you have just been promoted to "1st Lieutenant", which unlocks class 4 ships.
Should you now be able to:
1. Buy a frigate and sail her on maximum efficiency?
2. Buy a mid-class frigate or a mid-class battleship?
3. Get a frigate for "free"?
4. Get the choice of a mid-class frigate or a mid-class battleship for free?

We could possibly add two class attributes to navy ships, one being the "balanced" version and one being the "historical" value.
These values could then be used in different parts of the code.
For example, we could use the balanced value for making ships available, so for each rank you gain, you get the choice of getting a better frigate or battleship.
However, the historical class value could be used in regular interfaces and to define how efficiently you can sail a ship.

That would mean that you could capture a "balanced class 1/historical class 4" frigate and sail her at full efficiency on a mid-range character level.
However, you would HAVE to get that ship through capturing, because you won't be given/can't buy her yet until you are promoted to Admiral (minimum rank for class 1 ships).

Is there any sense to the above? I think I'm confusing myself, but I hope somebody can make some sense of it.

In any case, I reckon whatever we choose doing, it'll be better than the settings from Build 14 Beta 1 before Oberleutnant's and Experienced Captain's work.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

To my simple mind it looks like the military ships should be rated by number of guns and the merchant ships by cargo capacity. I have no ideer what to do with the balanced ships. But historical accuracy should prevail.

That said, there seems to be a gap in the merchant ship line up. In patch 3 I advanced quickly up to the light Fluyt and then was stuck. There were no class 5 ships around and that poor fluyt was constantly being hammered by, well, everything! All the money made by trading was going into ship repairs, so purchasing another ship was out of the question. My salvation came by completing a treasure quest. Off to Vanderdecken for a class 5 uncursed Black Pearl. That broke things wide open and it is still my flagship.

PS: Looking at that list, it appears I have only seen about 1/3rd of the ships available.

 

[Armada]

To my simple mind it looks like the military ships should be rated by number of guns and the merchant ships by cargo capacity. I have no ideer what to do with the balanced ships. But historical accuracy should prevail.

The way I saw it, the only issue was what to do with the Navy ships, so we didn't really need to adjust the other categories very much.
But I think you're onto a good point with this:

That said, there seems to be a gap in the merchant ship line up. In patch 3 I advanced quickly up to the light Fluyt and then was stuck. There were no class 5 ships around and that poor fluyt was constantly being hammered by, well, everything!

I never really took much notice of the Merchant and Balanced groups, so I've only just realised the lack of some classes.
Turns out there are only three class 5 ships (four if you count the Wicked Wench, which you can only buy from Vanderdecken )
So it's no wonder you got stuck with the class 6 light fluyt! It seems that from class 5 onwards, there are only one or two ships in each class
It's similar in the Balanced group, with there only being three class 5 ships, but there are quite a few 1st class ships.
As it happens, it was the same in the original Military group, too!

I'm aware that there are lots of ships which you haven't encountered in the category, but still I think there is a slight 'gap' between low and high classes.
I'll PM Oberleutnant to see if there's a way of making this make more sense for progression though the classes.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Any thoughts on my random assortment of ideas above?

 

[Hylie Pistof]

I'll take a shot at it, even though you seem to be talking about naval vessels.

I don't understand the part about getting a ship for "free".

About getting a ship above your rating, I just went from a class 6 ship to a class 5, to a class 2, to a class1, and then back down to a class 5 not because of problems sailing the class 1, but because of what sailing a class 1 while being a class 4 myself did to the ratings of my officers. They were all stuck at class 6 & 7. In big battles that really made a difference. So sticking with smaller ships until you are ready is a good thing in my opinion.

 

[Jason]

:gday Pieter

Let me try to respond to your scenario.

So imagine that you have just been promoted to "1st Lieutenant", which unlocks class 4 ships.
Should you now be able to:

!. Buy a frigate and sail her on maximum efficiency?
2. Buy a mid-class frigate or a mid-class battleship?
3. Get a frigate for "free"?
4. Get the choice of a mid-class frigate or a mid-class battleship for free?

I like th idea of ship upgrades on promotion.

Let me start by pointing out that in the Royal Navy one did not get command of a Frigate until they made Post Captain, which in out game would be captain. So I guess my anwer would be

To give a free Naval Brig to a 1st Lt, a sloop to a commander and a frigate to a captain.

Hope this helps

 

[Armada]

Any thoughts on my random assortment of ideas above?

Sorry Pieter, I meant to reply but got carried away with other things and completely forgot.

So imagine a situation where a player who can efficiently command a class 4 ship captures a frigate.
Gameplay-wise, would we want that player to be able to sail the ship on full efficiency or do we reckon you should need to level up some more for that?

If you meant the Balanced class 1, Historical class 4 'Heavy Flushdeck (i.e. best) Frigate', then of course it depends on the system.
The way I see it, the ship is in the same (historical) class as the player's ship, therefore they should be able to efficiently to sail it.
I mean, the player has gone through the trouble of actually capturing the ship, so surely they can now sail it properly, right?
And you get a lot of experience from boarding the damn thing AND surviving, so having to level up further is plainly unfair, I think.
Of course that's from a somewhat biased point of view, since I prefer a naval career myself, so opinions from other perspectives are welcome!

wouldn't it be safe to assume that historical correctness for navy ship classification would be most important to players who play as a navy character?
If that is the case, we might want to consider in which way such a player should be getting his larger ships.
Right now, if you join a nation, your promotions allow you to buy new classes of ships based on the class setting.
For approximately every two promotions, a new class becomes available.

So imagine that you have just been promoted to "1st Lieutenant", which unlocks class 4 ships.
Should you now be able to:
1. Buy a frigate and sail her on maximum efficiency?
2. Buy a mid-class frigate or a mid-class battleship?
3. Get a frigate for "free"?
4. Get the choice of a mid-class frigate or a mid-class battleship for free?

I absolutely agree, the historical system is most relevant to navy characters.
Originally I thought a 'free' ship seemed a bit too much, but having read Jason's post, perhaps it's a good idea.
As another suggestion, I think the player should be given the option of either a new ship based on their new level, or some money towards one.
Perhaps not everyone would want the default ship for their level, as it may not suit their tactics in battle.

We could possibly add two class attributes to navy ships, one being the "balanced" version and one being the "historical" value.
These values could then be used in different parts of the code.
For example, we could use the balanced value for making ships available, so for each rank you gain, you get the choice of getting a better frigate or battleship.
However, the historical class value could be used in regular interfaces and to define how efficiently you can sail a ship.

That would mean that you could capture a "balanced class 1/historical class 4" frigate and sail her at full efficiency on a mid-range character level.
However, you would HAVE to get that ship through capturing, because you won't be given/can't buy her yet until you are promoted to Admiral (minimum rank for class 1 ships).

I see what you mean, and it's a good point. However, I think that the promotion system should ONLY use the historical classes when granting players access to new ships, otherwise the historical accuracy of 'who can sail what' is lost.

In any case, I reckon whatever we choose doing, it'll be better than the settings from Build 14 Beta 1 before Oberleutnant's and Experienced Captain's work.

Great, at least I know I'm not wasting my time, then!

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I don't understand the part about getting a ship for "free".

I don't mean really for free, but as a reward for being promoted.
Of course we should add an option that you don't accept the ship, since you might have a better one already.

Originally I thought a 'free' ship seemed a bit too much, but having read Jason's post, perhaps it's a good idea.
As another suggestion, I think the player should be given the option of either a new ship based on their new level, or some money towards one.

Of course you already ARE awarded land upon promotion AND occasionally a sword and uniform as well.
I think we should be careful to not overdo the promotion rewards, though such rewards -when properly spread accross the ranks-,
could entice players to remain in a nation's service and go through the ranks in more-or-less navy gameplay style rather than the privateer style we have now.

As another suggestion, I think the player should be given the option of either a new ship based on their new level, or some money towards one.
Perhaps not everyone would want the default ship for their level, as it may not suit their tactics in battle.

Since Oberleutnant's idea was to distinguish between frigate-type and battleship-type ships,
I was thinking that upon a promotion, you would get the choice of getting a new frigate or battleship or keeping your present ship.
This would allow players to actually go through the classes from 8/7 up to 1 in actual gameplay.
However, this would mean that upon your promotion to Admiral, you could choose to receive command of a "Heavy Flushdeck Frigate",
which does go very much against historical information, because an Admiral would be in command of a squadron of battleship-type ships.

If we would consider that the class value (regardless of balanced or historical value) indicates how well a ship can deal with enemies,
then we could say that a frigate CAN be class 4 in a balanced system also, because a frigate isn't much use against a fort.
So if a player prefers to sail with a frigate type ship, should we really prevent that until later in the game by changing the class value?
We could consider that as the player progresses throughout the game, he/she should be able to tackle bigger prey.
If you just want to take out prey at sea, then a class 4 frigate might be perfectly suited to you.
However, if you continue leveling up and want to take out bigger prey still, you'll have to move first onto class 1 ships and then onto fleets of them.
So from this perspective, there isn't much against using the historical system for naval vessels.

When it comes to the Merchant Vessel group, I'd imagine that the class 1 ships would be able to yield the best profit margin.
However, they'd be pretty much completely helpless when under attack, since these ships are optimized for transporting cargo only.

Ships of the Balanced Vessel group would be able to fight off attacks and maybe even attack other ships, but still be suitable for trade.
As such, a class 1 Balanced ship would still not be able to fight against any fortresses or large warships.

I think the main question is if we need to have three groups of ships or four? We'd definitly have the following two:
Merchant - Progression through the classes to 1 allows you to transport ever greater amounts of cargo and make more profit, provided you keep away from trouble.
Balanced - Progression through the classes to 1 allows you to make more profit and be able to stand your own when under attack.

However, do we or do we not need to split up the Navy progression in a Navy Battleship and Navy Frigate group?
If we apply the same logic as to the other two classes, this sounds about right to me:
Navy - Progression through the classes to 1 allows you to take out ever bigger enemies, going from small craft,
then large merchant ships, then enemy navy warships, then fleets of warships and eventually forts.
If desribed as such, we wouldn't need to split the navy category, right?

 

[Darth-me]

I personally think both ideas are good, but the historical classification makes more sense to me - the only difference between a high level frigate and a low level frigate should be price, you shouldnt require players to reach high levels to use them.

In an ideal world, there should really be a toggle, but this would obviously require more work, so i don't know.

Also, if players are going to be given a new ship on promotion, i want to suggest some ideas:
1) I think there should be more Captain ranks, as Captains in the Royal Navy were Post Captains for YEARS - it took a very long time to become an Admiral.
2) There should be more than one option per rank - for example:
Captain rank 1 - Post Ship (6th Rate) (corvette in PotC??)
Captain rank 2 - Poor quality Small Frigate (ie 32 guns)
Captain rank 3 - Middle quality Small Frigate OR Low quality Mediumweight Frigate (ie 38 guns)
Captain rank 4 - Best Small Frigate OR Middle quality Mediumweight Frigate OR Low quality small battleship (ie 3rd or 4th rate) OR Low quality heavy frigate

Obviously i dont know what is possible, but these are just my thoughts.

 

[Armada]

I think we should be careful to not overdo the promotion rewards, though such rewards -when properly spread accross the ranks-,
could entice players to remain in a nation's service and go through the ranks in more-or-less navy gameplay style rather than the privateer style we have now.

Indeed, the knowledge that you will be rewarded greatly for serving the country of your choice would be great motivation for the navy players! :shoot:
It really becomes more like a virtual career, especially if it's not something that can be done in, say, a mere couple of hours of playing.

I was thinking that upon a promotion, you would get the choice of getting a new frigate or battleship or keeping your present ship.
This would allow players to actually go through the classes from 8/7 up to 1 in actual gameplay.
However, this would mean that upon your promotion to Admiral, you could choose to receive command of a "Heavy Flushdeck Frigate",
which does go very much against historical information, because an Admiral would be in command of a squadron of battleship-type ships.

Yeah, this does bring up the whole historical accuracy issue. I mean, how many Admirals would you have seen on frigates in those days? :huh

If we would consider that the class value (regardless of balanced or historical value) indicates how well a ship can deal with enemies,
then we could say that a frigate CAN be class 4 in a balanced system also, because a frigate isn't much use against a fort.
...
We could consider that as the player progresses throughout the game, he/she should be able to tackle bigger prey.

I personally think both ideas are good, but the historical classification makes more sense to me - the only difference between a high level frigate and a low level frigate should be price, you shouldnt require players to reach high levels to use them.

Fantastic thoughts guys! Certainly the point about the class representing a ship's capability in battle, as surely that's what the RN Rating system was for anyway?
As for prices, that's another of the good things of Oberleutnant's changes, which has yet to actually be put into the game!
He ensured that the ships in each category flow from class 8 to 1 with steady increases in pricing. This has, however, made some navy ships extortionately high in price! (you're talking nearly 1.75 million for the Soleil Royal!) But on the other hand, merchant vessels are far cheaper by comparison to navy ships, therefore more convenient for merchant players.
As it happens there is quite a difference (about 400,000) between the light frigate and the heavy flushdeck frigate, which works well I think.

I think the main question is if we need to have three groups of ships or four? We'd definitly have the following two:
Merchant - Progression through the classes to 1 allows you to transport ever greater amounts of cargo and make more profit, provided you keep away from trouble.
Balanced - Progression through the classes to 1 allows you to make more profit and be able to stand your own when under attack.
...
If we apply the same logic as to the other two classes, this sounds about right to me:
Navy - Progression through the classes to 1 allows you to take out ever bigger enemies, going from small craft,
then large merchant ships, then enemy navy warships, then fleets of warships and eventually forts.

Nice way to summarise the categories! In fact they make more sense when out that way, especially the Navy group.

Also, if players are going to be given a new ship on promotion, i want to suggest some ideas:
1) I think there should be more Captain ranks, as Captains in the Royal Navy were Post Captains for YEARS - it took a very long time to become an Admiral.
2) There should be more than one option per rank

That's another good point. As I mentioned above, it would be a shame if you could rank up through to Admiral in too short a timespan, as you'd get the impression you hadn't really done enough to fully earn the promotion. And I like the idea of multiple routes for each rank- open endedness is the philosophy this game was built upon, right?

 

[Derkylos]

The only problem with your "historically accurate" classification is that it isn't quite...

Ship rating varied dramatically across the periods that the game covers. Eg: in 1666, an 80-gun ship would be classed as a First Rate, but no such ship would even be considered for that classification a scant 20 years later, especially considering that the 80 gunner of '66 would have much lighter cannons than most 80-gun ships of the 1680's. And that's not even considering the 18th and early 19th century ships, which were considerable improvements on the earlier vessels, both in terms of handling and armament.

Reverting to the simple "higher is better" philosophy and designating a frigate as "class 1", as long as that class 1 frigate can compete (not beat in a stand up broadside-to-broadside battle with, but outmaneuver/outrun) with a class 1 ship of the line, and a class 1 merchantman (which would not be able to outfight the ship of the line, or outrun the frigate, but be able to out-trade both of them) would seem to make it much more user-friendly (please remember that most people playing this game didn't live in the 17th-19th centuries, and/or aren't naval officers...).

 

[Armada]

The only problem with your "historically accurate" classification is that it isn't quite...
...
Ship rating varied dramatically across the periods that the game covers.

Yes, I'm well aware of that.
However, I thought that the easiest thing to do when using a real rating system, such as the one mentioned, was only to use ONE to cover all periods, because it makes the most sense. I know that this does compensate some historical accuracy, but it's for the best, I think.
Theoretically speaking, I'm sure that it would indeed be possible to have different rating systems depending on the periods, but no doubt it would require a LOT of extra coding work, all for something which wouldn't necessarily make a large enough impact on the gameplay to even be noticed, let alone appreciated, by everyone.

Reverting to the simple "higher is better" philosophy and designating a frigate as "class 1", as long as that class 1 frigate can compete (not beat in a stand up broadside-to-broadside battle with, but outmaneuver/outrun) with a class 1 ship of the line, and a class 1 merchantman (which would not be able to outfight the ship of the line, or outrun the frigate, but be able to out-trade both of them) would seem to make it much more user-friendly (please remember that most people playing this game didn't live in the 17th-19th centuries, and/or aren't naval officers...).

I see your point here; true enough, not everyone wants maximum historical accuracy and/or even understands its significance in the game.
I hope, however, that the game will eventually be able to make sure that all players will have at least a basic understanding of aspects such as the Promotion and Rating systems, should they wish to pursue a career in a virtual country's navy. If they want to do that, they can. If not, they can choose to be a merchant, or simply do a bit of both with a balanced career. But no doubt many players will simply wish to pick a ship and do what they like! In which case, surely the RN Rating system is not such a problem for those whom it does not concern, therefore it doesn't matter about their historical knowledge.
User-friendliness is of course a priority, but I don't really see how the rating system will affect it so much... as surely a class 1 frigate will seem a bit misleading, due to Pieter's point about the class representing a navy ship's capability in battle, and in that sense it would be rather UNfriendly. I know that frigates are far more manoeuvrable than 1st Rates, but their firepower does not compensate for that in a battle situation. Of course it could outrun a 1st Rate, and potentially defeat it IF the 1st Rate is alone. Most 1st Rates travelled as part of a fleet, therefore a frigate is unlikely to be of any use against them, but it can certainly run away.
I think I've gone on a bit, so I hope that my response makes at least some logical sense. :?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Soleil Royal? Is she still in there? We need to remove that ship completely, because she isn't and cannot be properly adjusted for PotC.
Many people have tried and failed, so she doesn't show pennants and half her ropes are missing and there's nothing we can do.

Different rating systems based on period would be quite possible, but I wouldn't recommend doing it.
It's going to be quite some work coding it and it'll probably just confuse players. :?

For me, as soon as I considered forts into the equation, the historical classification started to sound much better to me.
Frigates cannot defeat forts and 1st Rate's can, therefore a 1st Rate is of a higher class.
Does that mean a 1st Rate is better than a frigate in all respects? Nope, of course not.
But there's just no way around firepower, resistance against enemy fire and number of crewmembers aboard, is there?

As for the speed of promotion, I'm pretty sure each next promotion takes longer to reach than the previous.
I've once tried getting up to Admiral and I don't recall it feeling to me as if it was too quick.
Sure it'd be quicker than in real life, but if it wasn't, people'd be getting fed up big time when trying.
Anyway, I recommend you just get a LoM, start sinking enemy ships and see how the promotions work.

 

[Talisman]

Soleil Royal? Is she still in there? We need to remove that ship completely, because she isn't and cannot be properly adjusted for PotC.
Many people have tried and failed, so she doesn't show pennants and half her ropes are missing and there's nothing we can do.

Remember - Bartolomeu uses this ship in the Assassin Storyline - in the Cannons of Mona quest

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I do remember. We need to find a replacement ship that DOES work properly in our game.
Any suggestions? While we cannot use the Soleil Royal ( ), I'd still like it to be a high-quality ship.
How about 'Le Superbe' by Pgargon that Experienced Captain recently adapted to PotC?
Though admittedly, that's more a frigate than a manowar type ship...