• New Horizons on Maelstrom
    Maelstrom New Horizons


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Question about Ship chest

Newcomers will get annoyed with the extra crowd. You just have to get used to it. If you're a modder, with the years you will learn an "ancient" wisdom about modding; It is not about making the game as realistic as possible, it is about finding a balance between fantasy and realism. Making the game as crowded as it is today, is probably realistic, but it is undesireable, because you can create the impression and the effect of crowds without implementing huge crowds. It takes magic and skill to do that.

I suggest listening to Sid Meier, he is a very wise game designer. His philosophy is not to implement the entire world into the game, but to implement the entire world in the players fantasy. For example (This may not be the finest example) but the lack of clear voice from the people you talk to is one such effect that Sid Meier talks about. You can't hear what any person in the game is saying, there is no voice, other than a little bit of "noise" and "random talk". This initiates the fantasy of the player to imagine rather than to be dictated WHAT to imagine. You see, if you dictate what the player should be hearing, what he should be seeing, you are creating a game that suits your own fantasy but not necessarily the fantasy of the player.

But even as true as this is, if the player expects something from the designer, perhaps the modder gives the player a few hints that he is about to discover a treasure. Never let the player down, when you give the player expectations, never let him down. He will turn off the game instantly. There is a secret "relationship" going on between the game designer and the player, a "pact" I guess. The designer promises the player that he will be rewarded when being hinted, the player accepts that he is the hero in all situations and he expect to be rewarded without being cheated by the designer.

Any situation in the game should be "neutral", if you know what I mean by that. The player should be allowed to fantasize what is going on, what is being said and what is happening. If you can create a game that is almost entirely neutral, you leave it up to the player to actually "create his own game" in his fantasy.

And when you allow the player to "create" his own game in his fantasy, the game becomes perfect, because any fantasy the player comes up with, is what he wants to experience.

The same applies to text and conversations between characters in the game. If you dictate a conversation very strongly, using well definitive words, the player will be forced to follow that conversation. If you "neutralize" the conversation so that the player can "alter" the conversation in his own head, the game will become better.

Being strict should be used in a reduced manner, only as a tip or a guide to hint the player in what field he should be fantasizing. What happens in fantasy is often much better than realism. Realism dismantles your fantasy, fantasy builds up where realism can't go further.

A funny example: If you model a house, but nothing is inside the house, just plain textures around the house, but nothing inside, this gives the player one kind of fantasy, you leave it up to him to imagine what could possibly be inside that house. The modeller saves both time and effort, he doesn't have to spend hours designing what is inside that house, because the player can fantasize about it, and the game becomes even better.

That was a bad example, but you can do amazing things with very simple techniques.

If you dictate "fate" too much, you are robbing the player of his fantasy.

The designer/modder should be dictating somewhere around 30 or 40%, the remaining 60% should be left up to the players imagination. The dictating is important to lead the player into a category of imagination, as a hint.

As a modder, make it a habit to review your work when it is done. Can you find elements in your creation that identifies characteristics of your own personality? If you can find similarities to yourself in your own mod, the mod is not good. That doesn't mean that there isn't anything good in the mod, but it just means that the mod will most likely follow a strict path that corresponds to your own personality. It's the overall that is probably not good, there can still be good situations here and there, but if you can backtrace anything in the mod to your own personality, the way you like things yourself, or anything that identifies you (the modder), the mod is probably bad.

You can find examples of this in New Horizons if you follow the church missions, the modder is clearly an atheist and that ruins the game because you know what is going to happen next, because you know the modder is an atheist. Problems arise when the modder is modding his own personality into the game. You should always strive for neutrality in any way you can achieve that. That doesn't mean the church missions didn't have humor in it, I surely did laugh many times, but if you do that, if you implement your own person into the game, it becomes predictable and it absolutely destroys the players imagination.

Being a modder is a fine compromise between ego and sacrifice. Know yourself better, are you modding because you want to put your own person into the game or are you modding to innovate and create experiences for the player. Be honest with yourself, know what the purpose of the mod is.

For example, when you hire new crew, the text that displays "I want to hire dogs, preferably smarter than dogs". This is funny, but it goes back to that ego thing I was talking about. The "smartness" that repeats itself throughout the game. If you talk to that guy who retires from your ship, he says to you he is old and wants to retire, and the reply text is "As if your white beard isn't a testimony for that". The "smartness" repeats itself all over the game, and here comes the ego part again.

Is the purpose to create romantic experiences in the cabbin or is it to create experiences of being a true pirate? Is the purpose to create church missions where you can be an actor in the name of the church or is it to promote your ideas about atheism? What should be the purpose of the front picture when the game loads, is it to dictate what the player should imagine, or is it to let the player imagine what he wants to imagine. Learn from the original game, there were no picture in the loading screen, and it is a very healthy choice to leave it out. It's a very nice ship in the loading screen (I think it is the victory ship) but is it really necessary? :) Define your goals. (We humans do this more often than we want to admit, but we often take our personal problems and mod them into the game without being aware of it)

It takes incredible skill to find that balance. Most people can't do it. You can't ask a modder to improve, if he didn't do better he can't do better. But I am only talking about this to make modders aware, I don't expect them to improve overnight, it's all about understanding. The mod is graphically excellent, technically excellent, but it suffers from a personal agenda.

Once you realize this very, extremely simple basic thing: That the game is not personal, it is interpersonal. The very basic idea of any game, is that it should suit a lot of players. It's the simplest form of understanding, that you should always strive to create interpersonal games where each player gets his share of the experience. The most simple form of mistake you can do as a game designer, is to put your own person into everything in the game. That's the most basic and probably the worst mistake you can do.

This proves that you can be a very good modder, but still a very bad modder. The foundational law of a game shouldn't be broken. To forget to put up the toilet seat before pissing is a very fine excuse to quit modding. That is a mistake you can't live with.

If there are 100 levels of mistakes you can do as a game designer, the first and most simple mistake would be to create a game that suits your own person. It's like Nathaniel Hawk in the beginning of the game with no skill points. You would either have to be extremely egoistic, or have extreme agenda.

I'm going to give an advice, it can be a blow to take it to you, but consider this: You're a modder, you're faced with a decision of what text to put into the game. You're an atheist and you sit between these two texts from the priest

"I'd like you to find my daughter so that she can come back to church and serve here with his holy father"

Nathaniel can respond with two answers:

1. "Why should she come back to serve God, he doesn't exist"
2. "I will do my best to find your daughter, mr. Priest"

You're a modder and you happen to be an atheist. Should you implement 1 or 2? You could implement number 1, but even if that one is random too, it's probably more wise to go for number 2.

When modding, try to put your ego aside, I would suggest you to try it just one time. See how far it will take you. :)
 
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Generally, Modders mod what they mod because they want to add the things that they like. Especially for PotC, we never started with any sort of "grand plan",
although the past few years I have definitely been trying to move away from the "mod feeling" towards the "new game" feeling.
If you look at Build 13, for example, you can very clearly tell that it is a mod and the quality is a bit uneven.
I'd like to think that we have managed to get things "smoothed out" quite a bit more by now.

Not sure what mod-added church missions you refer to. I don't think there are any.
The church-based sidequests were already on the original, unmodded game.

Really haven't got much of a clue where you got all that from.
I have never observed much of any "hidden agenda" anywhere in the game. o_O

Sure, there is some witticism and funny stuff added by various modders, but that is because they liked to add that.
And I welcome it and generally find it quite funny. I'm not the biggest fan of completely bland dialogues, although there is indeed a place for those too.
 
Having a bit of insight into your own realm, a little "wisdom" and self awareness, is probably essential not just in modding but in everything we do in life. If you find that one day you couldn't find the right "expectations" in modding, you may just take your agenda to more serious levels in real life. It has to be stopped while it is still harmless. It BEGINS at the low level (in relatively harmless games) but if you don't recognize it it will reveal itself in more serious factors in your real life, at a later point. Dictators like Adolf Hitler is a good example of that. He began as a painter and ended up as responsible for 60 million deaths. He went from being an artist, into becoming a tyrant.

That was a bad example, a very bad example, but my only message is, be aware of what you are doing, always. You'll become an even greater artist, a greater modder.

Thanks for this great mod btw. I don't have words to express how much I liked it. When people complain about something, they do so because they have everything to begin with. When I'm complaining, i'm doing it because the mod is almost perfect. When something is extremely bad, people won't complain at all. People only complain when things are almost perfect. So in light of this, i'm not complaining, i'm very satisfied with the mod. With a few opinions added to it.
 
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Are there any specific things you object to? Because the only specific thing that I gathered so far,
the supposed atheist main character in church missions, is something that I do not think any of the modders actually added to the game.
If they did, it'll be easily changed. If you mention the exact sentence, we can track it down in no-time.
 
Pieter, my opinions are just that, opinions. You shouldn't really change anything. I don't have the right answers, it's just opinions. It's not even an opinion, it's more like game philosophy. I enjoy this mod as it is, sure it can most likely be improved, but i'm not asking anyone to change anything, I am just the kind of guy who like to try to get people into other thought patterns and possibly inspire them to find better thought patterns. One of the things i've learned in life is that if you share bad opinions, people make use of bad opinions and come up with better opinions. So just by sharing bad opinions, you inspire people to come up with good opinons. That is why I never hesitate to share bad opinions. They might be good from time to time, but the ultimate goal is to make them use my bad opinions to come up with better opinions. Sort of brainstorming. KIND OF. Thanks for listening anyhow, and thanks for this great mod.
 
Well, if you give the examples, we can see about indeed improving on them.
Also... We'll better understand what you mean so that we can keep it in mind for the future.
But right now I am mainly just confused on exactly where you are coming from. :confused:
 
Methinks PotMaster rolled a fattie and has Chinese eyes. P6200062.jpg
 
I don't regard any of the church missions as being overtly atheist. There's the one on Martinique in which a woman has lost her faith due to a series of unfortunate events, and by showing goodness in the name of God you bring her back to the church. There's the one where you have to investigate allegations of improper conduct by the priest on Barbados, if you do a thorough enough investigation then you prove his innocence. And there's the entire "Strange Happenings" side quest which ends up pitting you against a bunch of satanists, again with you on the side of the church. Of course, if you want to play as an atheist then there are always choices to tell the church to get lost. (When you talk to the priest on Martinique, he greets you with "Good day my son", and you can tell him "I'm not your son, don't talk to me like that". Not exactly the best way to get on his good side, but that's not a problem if you don't want to work for the church...) In any case, as Pieter says, these were all in the original game, so whether they push an atheist agenda, a religious agenda or no agenda at all, none of the modders are responsible.

As for the pictures in the loading screen, I can't see any objection to them. They're something nice to look at while you're waiting for the game to load.

It's during the game itself that you get to define your goals. The first choice you have is which of the various storylines to pursue - a tightly bound one such as "Chronicles of Horatio Hornblower", a free-form one such as "The Buccaneer", or a wide-ranging story which still allows a lot of free play such as the original "Tales of a Sea Hawk". Then, unless you actively chose a tightly bound story, you have the freedom to choose your goals over and above any quests built into the story.

Incidentally, if you don't like the dialog, feel free to change it. Even I can do it and I don't know much about coding. Take a look in "PROGRAM\DIALOGS\ENGLISH" and in "PROGRAM\Storyline\<name of storyline>\DIALOGS\ENGLISH", where you should find various files whose names include "_dialog.h". You can edit those with the text editor of your choice, e.g. Notepad or Wordpad.
 
On the loading screens, the only things we really added are the ones for "Start New Game" and such.
The original game just had a bland pirate skull there and I didn't like it very much. Now we've got paintings, which still leave quite a bit to the imagination.
There are screenshots used for the various locations, but the original game had those too.
 
Grey Roger, that's exactly the mission where I got that opinion from, the woman who lost her faith. It was just one occasion, but you only need one occasion to detect an atheist and that was my simple point, that if you reveal your personality in a mod, it can easily lead the player into guessing what's coming next. But in this case it was just on one occasion so it's okay. But as I mentioned in my previous post, it's not a judgement of any modder, it's just my opinion, I share my opinions very often, don't confuse it for judgement. I like being nitpicky about things and sometimes it can be confused for being judgemental or pessimistic. As I said, I did laugh, it added a bit of humor and of course I won't change the dialogs. If there is anything a player can't do, is to mess with the dialogs, there is nothing more displeasing than to talk to people in the game when the dialog is made by yourself (hehe) I need that adventure of "not knowing what comes next" if you know what I mean
 
Yep, that's definitely an original game quest. Though it may have been fixed and finished as part of one of the earlier modpack releases.
If I recall, the choice to say that is up to the player. And you may even get reputation loss for it.
 
Grey Roger, that's exactly the mission where I got that opinion from, the woman who lost her faith. It was just one occasion, but you only need one occasion to detect an atheist and that was my simple point, that if you reveal your personality in a mod, it can easily lead the player into guessing what's coming next.
The thing is, I don't detect an atheist there. You already have to be a good person (the priest won't give you the quest unless you have a good reputation), then you go to the woman on behalf of the church, make the case for God, she regains her faith and you get some more reputation points at the cost of some gold. Or, as an atheist, you can just tell her that she's right to lose her faith, in which case you gain nothing. And, as has been said, that wasn't a mod anyway. The mods are the work of many people, so even if you do detect a hint of the author's personality in one mod, it won't help you to guess what's going to happen in another...
If there is anything a player can't do, is to mess with the dialogs, there is nothing more displeasing than to talk to people in the game when the dialog is made by yourself (hehe) I need that adventure of "not knowing what comes next" if you know what I mean
You only get that the first time you play the storyline. After that you do know what comes next because you've seen it before. The point is, if you don't like the dialog then you have the power to change it - if you then don't like it, or if you choose not to change it, then you have only yourself to blame. xD
 
The thing is, I don't detect an atheist there.

Many people don't detect many things. Your lack of detection isn't the case. The case is IF you're an atheist, you should consider sparing your opinions in game dialogs in order to "neutralize" the conversation. That doesn't mean that you can't give atheistic dialogs into the game, but it means you should neutralize your conversation, so that the player can't trace too much. One way of neutralizing a conversation is to make the conversation appeal in perfect harmony with the two characters talking to one another. If there is a priest in front of you, make him say priestly things. If the player's character is a pirate, make him speak like a pirate. You neutralize the conversation in many ways, one of them is by keeping conversation in harmony with the characters. It doesn't make much sense to implement "atheistic" world views in an age where atheism was very rare.

You already have to be a good person (the priest won't give you the quest unless you have a good reputation)

Being a good person or not has nothing to do with it, it is not about whether you are forced to make good or bad decisions or whether or not you need to be good or bad. The point is that if the conversation follows a recognizeable pattern, you are more likely to predict another dialog made by the same modder.

The mods are the work of many people, so even if you do detect a hint of the author's personality in one mod, it won't help you to guess what's going to happen in another...

Speak for yourself. Detection skill is not a template measured from within your own eyeballs, just being a tad realistic here. There ARE more things to learn in life, you have more years to live.

The problem doesn't go away if there are multiple modders producing dialogs, the problem only multiplies. (Oh now it's the banana guy again)

if you don't like the dialog then you have the power to change it - if you then don't like it, or if you choose not to change it, then you have only yourself to blame. xD

Let us fine tune some logic here:

You're assuming the following:

1. You assume I am a modder. (Flawed logic number 1)
Right answer: I am the player and you are the modder. The right thing here is to ask the forum, so it's not my own fault, there are the players and there are the modders. It would be right to suggest that I can engage in modding and alter the game, but that is the secondary ethical judgement, not the primary. So it can't be my own fault.

2. You assume I don't like the dialogs
Right answers: As has been said two or three times already, I am sharing opinions, not demanding any changes or demanding anything from modders.

I want to touch a little bit with the mentality behind your answers because I think you represent that group of people who don't consider the player. "If you don't like it, change it" mentality. The good modder will respond like this "If you don't like it, I will try to make it better next time" mentality is so much better and it makes so much more sense in the long term. :)

Can you see the problem with that mentality "if you don't like it, change it" ?
The problem is that the modder will continue "undisturbed" on the same path of his own wishes, and the game becomes more and more personal in correspondence with the modder.

Can you detect the problem with that? (Consider that a rhetorical question)

One way or one solution (this doesn't only apply to game dialogs, but to any aspect of the game) is to always stay in touch with your fellow modders and try to find a way to find the average "style" of one another, stay within that average and then sum up your own creativity to add the spice of change. That way the game become streamlined and creative at the same time. I can't emphasize this enough, a game that is not in balance/streamlined can become extremely bad, even if the content is good. Streamlining / quality insurance is..

..the key. :)

If you want to see what streamlining is all about, look at the hms victory 1st rate ship, it is a perfect representation of streamlined art. British wooden ships, extremely streamlined asymmetrical wooden design. That's what streamlining is all about, to put ingenuity, assymetrical design into one compact package.

You might want to avoid symmetry too in the game. If you don't know what I mean by symmetry, here is an example:

You go into the cabbin, there is one chair on the right side facing you and one chair on the very opposite side facing you also. You walk up to the desk, there is one rolled up piece of paper on the right side of the desk, one rolled up piece of paper on the left side of the desk.

That's symmetry. It's boring, it's destructive, I am certain that it is also even poisonous to "the soul" of a gamer and in real life too. Boredom kill people every day. Take advantage of the ingenious british designers, who could design the most beautiful assymetrical wooden constructions on earth.

Have you ever played an old strategy game where the map is made for 4 players and the map consist of 4 equal sized land mass in each corner of the map with water in between? That's symmetry gone absolutely mad, the boredom it initiates on people is deadly. "Symmetrical people" are stupid in nature, it's sad to say it, but their mind is so simple that they have to copy their own brain 4 times over and keep the 4 pieces in 4 corners to make a significance in this world, while the ingenuine man only need one copy of his brain to contribute something beautiful.

Stay away from symmetry as much as possible. 4 apples will taste the same as 1 apple, the difference is that the 4 apples only takes up more space.
 
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So, you talk about something you see as a problem, but others don't see it. I don't.

So you are asked to change it if you don't like it, and you say that is not your job. Ok.

So in over a decade no one has seen this problem with many people coming and going constantly.

Give us specifics as to what you want changed because none of us has seen a problem here and do not know what you want.
 
Depends what you mean by "problem", do you mean a problem in this game, this mod or in general games?

It's not my job, but it's my job to share opinions.

Most people who come and go are complaining about many things, each person with a different thing.

As I have said 5 times by now, I don't want anything changed in the game. Yes I think I have written that and hinted many times. :)

Please don't use the term "us" here on the forum, this IS a forum where people can speak, right? It's okay if you share opinions with a few of your friends, but don't use the term "us" on a forum with people of different opinions. This is not communism.

I get a friendly wibe by the other guys, but you have a different one. I don't know which part of the game I touched you with, but I'm going to find out. I have a special artist degree in that field, I wish I had one with modding though :)
 
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Since the issue we are discussing is something from the original game, the "problem" has to do with this game.

By "us" I was referring to us modders. Please note that everyone who has responded to you is a modder of one sort or another. I was asking you to give us modders some guidance, although personally I don't even know where the dialogs are.

You didn't touch me about the game at all. I saw a long post from someone named PotMaster and tried to make a joke about it. Most of my jokes don't work.
 
Ok settled then. Can we get along?

I have a few wishes for PotC, but I fear it may not be possible:

1. True sailing without the loading screen between islands.
2. Ability to walk in and out of the cabbin in real time sailing mode.'
3. Sequential fire instead of salvo. It often takes only 400 milliseconds to fire a 50 gun broadside, I don't think it is correct. If both ships are moving in opposite directions, the guns that point more or less directly to the target should fire first, and as the ship moves the guns behind follows so that each shot is fired at the center of the target as it moves.

I fear the limitation of the engine won't allow point 1 and 2.
 
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Those are indeed limitations of the engine.

1. There will always be the "land ho" screen. The open sea mod places you so far away that land is often not visible and it can take days before reaching port and dropping anchor, depending on the winds.

2. Actually that is possible on certain ships. Most ships have no cabin at all, some have cabins that you can look into, and a very few have cabins you can walk into. For example the Revenge has an unfurnished cabin you can walk through.
This is an old game that can't handle too much detail.
 
old is the word, it's amazing how old it has turned but it's still magical to me. The environment is good, better than other games imho. I hope there will be an effort to copy this game to an open source project. If they do I hope they take advantage of progressive meshes and streaming textures like they use in the iD engine 4. You could basically sail off an island as it appears in real time with no load screens. The smoke and skies are easy to implement, they use billboarding techniques.

If they do I think the ability to "go to sleep" in the cabbin to fast travel would be cool. When you wake up (5 seconds later) you've arrived at some place unless they wake you up for some other reason. Things like, having an ability to undress and walk naked around in the cabbin, take a bath in a tub would also be cool. Invite someone to sleep in your bed at your own will, would definitely also be cool.

One thing that I imagine about this open source game is the sight of sailing from the window of the cabbin. You can hear the storm, but not quite hear it, you see the enormous waves and fog, and the ship is going a little bit up and down as you walk inside the cabbin. :)

Modular ships with a different twist (Yes, you can modulate ships in PotC) but modulate ships and you can see the different parts of the ship get installed as you buy it, in a full 3d view, you can see the different items being installed in 3D from a static side-view. When you click the buy/install button you can hear the sound of a saw cutting some wood as you install the part (and the part shows up on the 3d model for you to see right away)

Ability to walk directly from the port up to the ship on wooden planks/stairs in real time.

The good thing about developing an opensource version is you can develope an engine that is specifically designed for pirate games, you don't have to implement all the abilities that a general purpose graphics engine has. Much time is saved.

Btw some engines out there have some really realistic particle system, when you shoot something or throw a grenade, the whole structure rips apart in real time, real holes are generated, that "modern" tech would be extremely useful when cannon balls tears through the hull and you could take full advantage of the most advanced features of that particle system because a fight between two ships isn't going to put much stress on the system.

And, "beautiful shiny swords", more beautiful than in PotC. :)
 
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