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Pinks, Hull Speeds and other nautical notions

mjh623

Rum Runner
Sorry this is so long, but I’ve come upon something that really got my dander up. I finally plugged in the combined mod2, patch and vanilla patch. I am using the vanilla patch for now until I understand just what it is y’all are trying to accomplish with the cannon tinkering. I started a new game up and found myself in command of what claimed to be a Pink. I say claimed to be because it in no way resembled a Pink, also known as a Pinky Schooner. Now the Pinks were primarily fishing vessels used in the Northeastern North American waters, mainly New England and Canada. They were prevalent in the early to mid 1800’s. How one would manage to surface in the Caribbean in the 1600’s isn’t really an issue to me. After all, I have been trading blows with skeletons, so my disbelief is in full suspension. However, the craft so labeled was no Pink. It was a cutter. Wide transom, single gaff rigged mast, head sail and jib. A Pink is schooner rigged, first of all. It is also double ended, as in pointy both fore and aft. It has a high projecting bulwark aft and in larger versions would have had a small poop deck on the projection, looking like an extended pinky. That is where the name comes from. It is an excellent seagoing boat, particularly good at handling short choppy seas such as those found on the Grand Banks. Now I think having a true Pinky Schooner modeled in the game would be a wonderful thing, as I really like the diversity of ships that the POTC Build has accomplished and continues to develop. However, just slapping the name onto something that clearly it isn’t just ain’t right! For reference sake, attached is a beautiful example of a Pinky Schooner.

Now then, enough of this Pink nonsense, I will refer to the boat in the game as a cutter for the rest of my rant. One thing about this cutter, it is fast! I mean, really fast. How fast is it you ask? Well, I walked away from two Brit frigates like they were standing still… downwind with a 12 knot following wind. Now cutters have a reputation for being fast, but quick is a more accurate description. They accelerate quickly. From a stop, they come up to speed quickly. They can tack quickly and wear quickly. They regain their speed quickly after turning. However, their top speed is limited due to their hull length. In a displacement vessel, waterline length is the limiting factor in top speed. The formula is v= 1.34X the square root of the waterline length where v is velocity in knots. Now let’s take a large frigate with a 120 foot waterline. The theoretical hull speed of this vessel is a little shy of 15 knots. It takes a considerable amount of time, wind and distance to get her up to anything near that, but given the right circumstances it is attainable. Now let’s take our cutter with a waterline length of say 50 feet. When we apply our formula we see that this craft has a top hull speed of about 9 ½ knots. Running downwind, the cutter shouldn’t have stood a chance. Now, to windward is a different matter. That is where the fore-n-aft rig really shines. Being able to sail at 15 degrees off the wind versus the frigate’s 50 degrees makes a huge difference!
The point of this long stand on the soap box is that we need to take a look at these ships that are being ported over and make sure they are given some basis in reality. Beautiful skins are all well and good, but each of these vessels had their strengths and weaknesses that gave them their place in the maritime environment, and to ignore that takes away a lot of the rich heritage that makes the age of sail so compelling a time in history and attracts many of us to these games. I don’t know about you, but I like seeing a wide array of unique ships in the various harbors, and even more I like having to employ different tactics when engaging a brig than I do when engaging a cutter, or a corvette, or a “Pink”!
 

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  • Pinky Schooner Colvin.jpg
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Well, Luke159 has been the resident ship man in the mod though he has not been on since the holidays, busy with real life no doubt. ATM, no one else is really working on the ships and their attributes. I agree, someone should look into all the ships that have been ported and make an assessment on what should stay, what should go, and what needs to be changed.
 
3 letters: WBT - link in my sig.

Second:

Do it. As fast as you can. It's a change worth making and will have a lasting effect on gameplay.
 
Working on it? We're finished with that in NH.

And that doesn't stop me from porting my work over to CoAS for an independent mod on a similar note.
 
Luke has finished what he has so far for the Combined Mod (for the ships in game)

You could release it as an independant mod if you want Im just saying there is already something in a CoAS mod (both Vanalla and Combined) that already does it
 
Not to be difficult, but no it doesn't. I am playing with the latest released version of the mod, which is where this Turbo Cutter labeled a Pink comes from. After reading SWS' WBT thread I at least am interested in trying it out. So much so that I am probably going to go ahead and load a test instance of New Horizons in addition to my Build 13 for POTC (along with my AOP w/ Supermod and AOP COAS CM2). I guess I would suggest comparing the two models and see which works better. Maybe in the end we wind up with a hybrid that combines the best of both. Now if I could just get my Age of Sail II to run... I would love to be able to load different ordinance in different guns the way that one could!
 
I would like to say i didn't port the Pink over and its attributes remain that of the original stats. I have made some ships speeds different, cargo will effect speeds too. The Frigates and there are many types out there all have different speeds, if you come across say the Chase Frigate then speed is very important since its got great speed. However some ships may need looking into and will not be a problem, if you have installed the COAS CM mod V2 and patch then you should have all ships currently ported over. I should have more time next week to look into the ships and make sure that they are not over rated, but you are the first to pojnt out any kind of problem with ships and there speeds.

Here you go i've edited the ships speeds and lowered the speeds of many, i have made sure that the Frigates can match the speeds of the smaller ships but they still have a slight edge over most of the ships, and if the ships are used in the right way you should be able to out run many ships however some larger ships will match the speeds of the Pink, Cutter, Sloop etc etc.

You will find the new ships speeds in the achment, download and instal as follows.
In stall the Ship_Init file in Age of Pirates 2\Program\Ships, when asked to over write say yes. You will need to start a new game for the changes to take effect.

Officerpuppy i will PM you this new file can you add it in V3 please. :onya
 
You sure worked quick. I'm including it in the new patch plus I'm making a few small changes to it. I think I'll have it all ready by tonight.

Update: Is this file vanilla or RTBL?

I'll have to release two patches, one flavor, and another. So if the file you provided is RTBL, then I'll need an updated version for vanilla as well.
 
You sure worked quick. I'm including it in the new patch plus I'm making a few small changes to it. I think I'll have it all ready by tonight.

xD: Hopefully now the ships speed are more realistic or close enough for everyone to enjoy the COAS Combined Mod.

Thanks. :onya

Edit:
No just the RTBL version, the Vanilla needs the new ship speeds porting over.

Update, here is the Vanilla ship_init file.
 
Today i've got a Xebec SL, went over to bermuda and upgraded it in all aspects... the funny thing is that after this upgrades, sailing with the wind and half loaded i get 2/4 knots over the actual wind speed... i've easily reached speeds of 16 knots without cargo.
Rum Runner, would you mind to calculate the correct speeds for the ships using that formula you mentioned earlier ? so that Luke or OP can put the correct values in the patch and we wrap this issue once and for all...
 
"easily reached speeds of 16 knots without cargo."

Do the foils pop out of the bottom of the ship? xD:
 
Who thinks that a Xebec hull with a barquentine rig would look perfectly like a neat little clipper? I do!
 
I don't mind calculating max hull speeds. There are other factors that go into determining the actual sailing speeds. The formula I posted is the limiting factor on the top end. But I'm not sure how to go about getting "waterline lengths" for the in-game ships. Haven't looked at their files to see if there is a length parameter to work off of yet. Do we have a list handy with that info?

Edit- Ok, I see a hull length number in the Ships_init file. I'll have to compare a bunch of them to set some sort of scale to go by. I'll see what I can come up with.
 
@Bumpkin: nope, however my crew whas having a hard time just to stand still on deck without holding to something, and the sailor on the crows nest vomited all over the others below him...
@Rum Runner: i think that if you try to fit the scales for every ship you'll go insane... i suppose every modeler tries in his own way to fit the real ships scale as good as possible...
 
i think that if you try to fit the scales for every ship you'll go insane...

I did exactly that for Build 14 Beta. 220 ships in a couple of weeks. Who knows, I could do the same for CoAS and toss in inertia-based maneuvering at the same time, which gives far more realistic tactical gameplay.

Interest is my work is another matter; as you can see, there is none.
 
I will be trying out your work in POTC 14 Alpha 10 this week. I will be better qualified to comment on it after that. It sounds fantastic. Assuming it performs as you have described it and the AI can handle it at least no worse than it currently does, preferably better, I will be your loudest cheerleader for employing it in the COAS environment.
 
i think that if you try to fit the scales for every ship you'll go insane...

I did exactly that for Build 14 Beta. 220 ships in a couple of weeks. Who knows, I could do the same for CoAS and toss in inertia-based maneuvering at the same time, which gives far more realistic tactical gameplay.

Interest is my work is another matter; as you can see, there is none.

It would be nice if you could sort out the true ship speeds and add interia based maneuvering, the RTBL mod was to make the battles feel more realistic, with your help that and the vanilla mod could both be far more realistic making for some great battles and more tactical maneuvers. Its not thats i'm not interested in your work its i haven't had time to look at it, i'm sure your work is great i know in POTC i liked the way the ships moved and the battles was exciting. The more realistic we can get the battles the more happier people would be, as you will have seen in all RTBL mods changes have been made over and over again trying to get that perfect ballance of realism and difficulty making the game more fun to play and giving a better idea of what it was like to be involed in naval battles.
 
Okay consider that sorted then - I'm sure I'll enjoy what you've done with RTBL, now if you can wait for me to get CoAS, of course. Thanks for the reply :)
 
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