Limitations of the Pirate title

[Jackseno]

Hello Pirates Ahoy forums!

I haven't posted here before, but I do check out the forums every now and then to see what's going on. I thought this would be the best place possible to pose a few questions on a subject that has occupied a lot of my thoughts since the start of my attempts to make a game set in the age of sail. So perhaps a few members here could give this a read?

So the main issue I'm dealing with is the trappings of the Pirate label, and the seemingly inescapable nature of their association to the age of sail. As a quick disclaimer; From a thematic standpoint and as a genre I have no actual problem with pirates, privateers or piracy in general.

Here's the thing though! And this is purely my own experience: When I began work on my own project last year (A simple treasure hunt game set in the age of sail), I was very careful not to include any mention of piracy, or pirates in any of the documentation, promotional materials, or public information about the game - and yet, almost every single observer, seemingly no matter what has immediately attached the pirate label to it.

This isn't the biggest deal ever, neither is it a stretch to apply these labels, when people see ships, cannons, swords and tricorns, by association their first and often only frame of reference is with the pirates that popularised them. However; pirates weren't the only people to ever sail ships, carry swords, wear tricorns and so on! My question then is; Is the pirate moniker too closely bound to sailing ships? Is there no hope for merchants, treasure hunters or explorers? Not to mention any other parties I am unable to think of.

This isn't to suggest the label is a negative one. (although I'm sure it would be hard to argue against the degree of baggage now associated with pirates brought on by the storm of tropes and cliches surrounding them today) The label does feel unavoidable though, which feels immediately limiting (and disheartening) in terms of scope and the kind of expectations and trappings brought along with it.

So! Is there a solution to all this? Besides straight up putting players in the role of a Navy ship, is there a way to escape the pirate association in to something different? I'd love to start some kind of discussion on this.

(PS sorry if this is in the wrong place, I took my best shot at guessing where to place it)

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Note for our other members: @Jackseno is one of the lead developers on the former CryEngine, now Unreal-based game project named "Tempest".
See here for details: http://www.indiedb.com/games/tempest-open-world-exploration

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Interesting one, mate! And definitely something we've been working on for quite some time as well.

It is easy to refer to anything involving ships in the Age of Sail as a "pirate game" and very often I do so as well, but I am well aware that is a tremendous simplification.
"Historical seafaring game set in the Age of Sail" would be much more accurate for the games I'm involved in (the 2003 Pirates of the Caribbean game and Hearts of Oak).

Certainly for all mods and games we work on, we try to offer a broad spectrum of play styles and not have things limited to piracy only.
For many years in the PotC Build Mod, the "normal" means of play has been as a privateer, not as a pirate.
This is because having a Letter of Marque is quite a nice advantage and so is not having everyone in the Caribbean hate your guts.
In fact, while playing as a full-out pirate was possible, it also would not offer much interesting gameplay, other than "sinking/capturing more ships".
We have recently made some improvements on that so that you can now more easily "officially join the pirates" and gain ranks with them as well.

There have certainly been very famous privateers and I think quite a lot of people with any interest in the Age of Sail must have heard of Sir Francis Drake.
That is definitely something different from your Blackbeard or Jack Sparrow style pirating.

Exploration, as Christopher Columbus did, should also be quite well known to most people.
I think so far not a lot of gameplay has been built on exploring the unknown, but we have been trying that with the "Early Explorers" time period in the PotC Build Mod.
Still, I do believe there is substantial untapped potential there.

Pirates are certainly at the forefront of "the general public's" minds, thanks largely due to the various films on that subject and especially the PotC ones these past few years.
However, don't discount the navy. More specifically the British Royal Navy, with such famous characters as Lord Nelson (real),
the fictional Jack Aubrey (Master and Commander film and book series) and Horatio Hornblower (book series, TV series and awesome old film).

A feature we have recently added to the PotC Build Mod is that you can now start the game as a proper naval officer if you choose that option.
Gameplay is quite different if you do that and it is certainly not piratey: you can't even take ships for yourself!
A lot of unique characters are available for this, including every single one mentioned in this post.

The "game and media world" does seem very one-sidedly English, which I think is a bit of a shame as that lacks in variety.
But at least there has been the "Michiel de Ruyter" film in the Netherlands earlier this year (aka "Sea Battles: The Movie") which must have helped at least a bit with that.

Quite new in well-known popular culture are also the fantasy elements that have been introduced mainly by the PotC films.
Though of course those were already known to a certain extent thanks to the Money Island series.
Playing as a cursed character, such as Hector Barbossa or Davy Jones, would be another unique challenge that can be added in a historical Age of Sail setting.

And if you go a bit more modern, you can include all sorts of steampunk stuff.
Remaining realistic, you would have steamships of sorts. Perhaps some tea clippers as well, though I doubt those could make for very interesting gameplay.
But there is also potential for Nautilus-style submarines. And if you feel crazy, throw some zeppelins in there!

Long story short, yes "pirates" is an easy and familiar term to people.
But the amount of potential in an Age of Sail setting is certainly much more huge than just that single limiting term.

Spoiler

Yep, it seems this post became quite a nice advert for the upcoming PotC: New Horizons Build 14 Beta 3.5.
Wasn't originally intended that way, though.... Just sort-of happened as I was writing....

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I forgot to mention that of course the games we have modded over the past many years also allow players to play as honest merchants.
Sounds a bit boring to me, but as far as I understand it, the players who do most trading in the game do get themselves a Letter of Marque on the side and do some privateering as well.
So they combine playing as an honest merchant with some more agressive tactics of making money.

Last Sunday I have started a bit of work to encourage some sort of interesting dedicated merchant gameplay in our PotC Build Mod.
But that is still in the very early stages and needs a lot more thought and development.

Here's the thing though! And this is purely my own experience: When I began work on my own project last year (A simple treasure hunt game set in the age of sail), I was very careful not to include any mention of piracy, or pirates in any of the documentation, promotional materials, or public information about the game - and yet, almost every single observer, seemingly no matter what has immediately attached the pirate label to it.

One thing I've got to admit: While I do see the Age of Sail offering a very wide range of professions and things to do, actual treasure hunting sounds extremely piratey to me.
The concept of buried treasure, while inspired by some real life urban myths and probably by the story of Captain Kidd too, is very much a pirate trope.
If I think of pirates, I think of buried treasure and if I think of buried treasure, I think of pirates. With, of course, a treasure map with an "X to mark the spot" to go with it.
Definitely one of my favourite pirate tropes though, because it is just plain old-fashioned piratey fun.

When I fixed the Treasure Quests we have in the PotC Build Mod (apologies for me repeatedly referring to that, but that is my main area of expertise when it comes to game development),
I deliberately added a nice red "X" on the map to indicate where you have to go. Even though, of course, "An X never, ever marks the spot".

I do believe that hunting for buried treasure could work well with a more peaceful "exploration" type of gameplay.
Especially if you throw some Indiana Jones style trapped temples in there for good measure.
But even then you'll probably very quickly end up with indians/Mayans/Aztec/mummies guarding the treasure and perhaps a god/monster or two.
Maybe some Spanish Conquistadors too, just for fun.

Of course there is no actual historical basis for any of that and probably no particular logical reason either.
During the time of exploration, there wouldn't be any treasure yet because nobody would have buried it.
After all, who would bury treasure if not a pirate? Unless you assume that the indigenous people would have done it.
But I can't imagine indians doing that. They would have put the treasure to good use in temples, treasuries or as personal jewelry.

So while the people searching for treasure don't need to be pirates, logically it must have been a pirate who buried it.
Which suggests that you cannot fully avoid the pirates' involvement altogether.
In which case, you might as well embrace it and poke some fun at well-known pirate tropes!

Anyway, that's just some random rambling. Hopefully you find some interesting food for thought in there.
And of course I'd be quite interested to hear your thoughts on my above collection of random statements.

 

[Armada]

It's an unfortunate problem, and one that we've certainly had to address with Hearts of Oak.

For some people, any kind of tall ship will always be "a pirate ship" no matter what you tell them. We just have to accept that, thanks in no small part to popular culture.

The way we chose to tackle this was through this part of our FAQ page:

Is it a Pirate Game?
That depends how you define a "Pirate Game".
If you define it as a game set in the Age of Sail, that gives the player command of their own ship and an open world to explore, then YES, Hearts of Oak IS a pirate game.
If you define it as a game all about pirates... well, Hearts of Oak will include pirates and will let you play as one, but it won't be all about pirates, so in this case, NO, it IS NOT a pirate game.

This way, it is up to what each individual considers a "pirate game" to be. We continue to call Hearts of Oak a "historical seafaring game" or "Age of Sail RPG" or words to that effect, but we don't cause a stir when someone refers to it as a pirate game.

 

[Jackseno]

Gosh! An excellent and extremely thorough reply! I am very much heartened to hear that I am not alone with these thoughts, and doubly so that there may be lots of alternatives. =)

I'll attempt to reply to as much as I can here;

There have certainly been very famous privateers and I think quite a lot of people with any interest in the Age of Sail must have heard of Sir Francis Drake.
That is definitely something different from your Blackbeard or Jack Sparrow style pirating.

Yes! One of the first research trips I made for Tempest was to the Golden Hinde II in London. Francis Drake's story in particular is a fantastic one, and is part of what inspired me to make Tempest a treasure hunt to begin with. I had hoped that Spanish gold could potentially be a (somewhat) less pirate-like treasure to pursue.

Exploration, as Christopher Columbus did, should also be quite well known to most people.
I think so far not a lot of gameplay has been built on exploring the unknown, but we have been trying that with the "Early Explorers" time period in the PotC Build Mod.
Still, I do believe there is substantial untapped potential there.

I'd love to hear more about Early Explorers, are there any specific mechanics in place to promote or reward exploratory play? Exploration is at the forefront of my design principles and is a large part of my affinity for the age of sail in general.

However, don't discount the navy. More specifically the British Royal Navy, with such famous characters as Lord Nelson (real),
the fictional Jack Aubrey (Master and Commander film and book series) and Horatio Hornblower (book series, TV series and awesome old film).

The Royal Navy has been a tempting route to pursue throughout my project's development, as it does somewhat neatly cut ties to piracy by being in direct opposition. In addition, the Royal Navy is generally well documented, and has a decent amount of media to go with it. (Including the Horatio Hornblower series you mentioned which I am familiar with).

However - The Navy brings along with it a hierarchy that I feel wouldn't jam well with what I have in mind for Tempest. That is to say - ranks and order are everything in the Navy, and when I envision a crew of players aboard a ship in Tempest, I want the dynamics of social interaction to dictate who does what. Players in Tempest should not have their roles enforced by a class selection screen or by skill point allocation, but rather by what they themselves as well as their peers decide should be their role. If both players attempt to take charge and order other players around (i.e. taking on a captain-like role) they should be able to resolve that themselves, either with words, or swords!

This kind of loose structure would be harder to enforce if players took the role of uniformed officers and such, where any challenges to authority or descent would be swiftly resolved with a round of hangings from yardarms.

I have considered setting players up as some kind of rebel navy, such as a Navy ship gone rogue, but I have my doubts about how well this would come across.

The "game and media world" does seem very one-sidedly English, which I think is a bit of a shame as that lacks in variety.
But at least there has been the "Michiel de Ruyter" film in the Netherlands earlier this year (aka "Sea Battles: The Movie") which must have helped at least a bit with that.

Very much agree with you here! I have quite liked the idea of giving the playable characters' mixed nationalities. At one point I wanted them all to be French, this is a tad difficult to achieve though given how hard it is just to secure decent English VA talent. (Which you think would be easy, as I am a UK resident myself!)

And if you go a bit more modern, you can include all sorts of steampunk stuff.
Remaining realistic, you would have steamships of sorts. Perhaps some tea clippers as well, though I doubt those could make for very interesting gameplay.
But there is also potential for Nautilus-style submarines. And if you feel crazy, throw some zeppelins in there!

This is also something I've talked about with my team. Sadly though it brought us to the logical conclusion of Guns of Icarus - which being the starting point for our project might be an awkward point to end up at. (Especially given how much they absolutely nailed that setting, I doubt we could match it, even if we threw all the less competitive, relaxed exploration design we have at it.)

I forgot to mention that of course the games we have modded over the past many years also allow players to play as honest merchants.
Sounds a bit boring to me, but as far as I understand it, the players who do most trading in the game do get themselves a Letter of Marque on the side and do some privateering as well.
So they combine playing as an honest merchant with some more agressive tactics of making money.

This is another thing that has troubled me somewhat. Setting the players' as merchants is difficult because of the somewhat routine nature of their activities. However there might still be an angle with it along the lines of a proper economy system that allowed players to buy goods at certain prices and then be sold elsewhere for more or less.

One thing I've got to admit: While I do see the Age of Sail offering a very wide range of professions and things to do, actual treasure hunting sounds extremely piratey to me.
The concept of buried treasure, while inspired by some real life urban myths and probably by the story of Captain Kidd too, is very much a pirate trope.
If I think of pirates, I think of buried treasure and if I think of buried treasure, I think of pirates. With, of course, a treasure map with an "X to mark the spot" to go with it.
Definitely one of my favourite pirate tropes though, because it is just plain old-fashioned piratey fun.

This is all very true! I designed Tempest with a treasure hunt in mind in order to facilitate an open world where exploration would be held at the forefront of a players' interests. As a device that would leave the game open enough for players to feel like taking their ship one way or another was a meaningful decision, whilst also being a sufficient enough motivator to try in the first place. (Because shiny gold!) However, its associations to piracy are most probably as you say half the reason the label is with us in the first place. Putting the thematic problems aside for a moment though, I continue to wonder how much mileage this concept has from a gameplay perspective.

Essentially - at present, Tempest sits at a design crossroads. With our fresh start in Unreal, we have a chance to change the direction we will take it in. There are core values I want to hang on to (Which to run down them very quickly, are: 1. A balance of tranquil & peaceful moments Vs tense, exciting moments, leaning more on the peaceful exploration side. 2. Players working together aboard a sailing ship with an informal (flat from a mechanical standpoint) power structure. 3. Players should disagree with each other over duties, headings, maps, what to do and how to do it. They should also be given tools to resolve said disagreements, but should not be pushed one way or another by arbitrary forces. 4. Play sessions should be repeatable and unpredictable)

What this means is there is lots of room for changing how we present the players as characters and their place in the world they inhabit. There is so much baggage associated with pirates and piracy that wouldn't just limit players thematically, but perhaps also in what they feel is expected of them. (Give them a ship with guns for instance and their first instinct will probably be to attack and rob the first vessel they find - whilst this isn't a bad thing, it might also be a limiting factor).

I'll conclude this large wall of text with a summary of possible considerations to make from here:
-Framing players as explorers. Possibly by extending a charting mechanic that tasks players with mapping out the world?
-Framing players as a Navy. Giving players plenty to do, but also potentially sacrificing their freedoms.
-Framing players as merchants
-More nationalities!
-Pursuit of treasure may be inextricably bound to piracy, for better or worse

Again just for some final thoughts; exploration is something I feel could definitely do with more discussion around, not just within age of sail media but as a design direction in general. And I feel the age of sail exemplifies a lot of the best parts of why we love to explore and undertake journeys to new and exciting places. Thanks again for your replies, looking forward to more!

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I'd love to hear more about Early Explorers, are there any specific mechanics in place to promote or reward exploratory play? Exploration is at the forefront of my design principles and is a large part of my affinity for the age of sail in general.

Unfortunately there isn't a lot to tell. This is the period in the game between 1500 and 1599.
At the moment we have simply disabled access to the islands that historically weren't settled yet during those years and Spain is in control of pretty much all other ones.
We have Francis Drake as default starting character in that period and gameplay would consist mainly of making as much trouble for the Spanish as possible.

I'm not entirely sure what type of exploratory gameplay to include. Perhaps the disabled islands can be empty with some random stuff to be found on there.
But apart from being able to construct your own base on them, I'm not sure what other interest there would be to that.
There are the random Treasure Quests, of course, but they are always there and not exclusive to Early Explorers.

I'm definitely open for suggestions there, though. It is always fun to allow different types of gameplay in the same game.
And while we do have an "Explorer" player type, that controls mainly character skills and items at game start and doesn't do much else (yet).

However - The Navy brings along with it a hierarchy that I feel wouldn't jam well with what I have in mind for Tempest. That is to say - ranks and order are everything in the Navy, and when I envision a crew of players aboard a ship in Tempest, I want the dynamics of social interaction to dictate who does what. Players in Tempest should not have their roles enforced by a class selection screen or by skill point allocation, but rather by what they themselves as well as their peers decide should be their role. If both players attempt to take charge and order other players around (i.e. taking on a captain-like role) they should be able to resolve that themselves, either with words, or swords!

That does actually sound like quite a piratey approach. As far as I'm concerned, there doesn't need to be anything wrong with that.
Ever heard of "The pirates who don't do anything"? I think that is pretty much what you're after.
Sure, you're all a bunch of pirates. However, your kind of "pirates" are "peace-loving explorers and spreaders of good will who distributed candy to small children. Modern pirates are not related."
As you can tell, those links I pointed to are quite humorous and I think approaching the "pirate" aspect in a similar way might help you out.
Don't forget to do some lampshade hanging as well for extra hilarity and to make it obvious that no, your pirates are NOT evil and yes, you know that's unrealistic and you don't care.

What this means is there is lots of room for changing how we present the players as characters and their place in the world they inhabit. There is so much baggage associated with pirates and piracy that wouldn't just limit players thematically, but perhaps also in what they feel is expected of them. (Give them a ship with guns for instance and their first instinct will probably be to attack and rob the first vessel they find - whilst this isn't a bad thing, it might also be a limiting factor).

Give the players a ship without guns! Nobody said a ship needed them. Especially the smallest ones realistically would probably not have them.

And it is YOUR game world. If you want it to be mainly peaceful, you can do just that. You aren't required to stick to known facts or tropes, though you can make fun of them.
There is also no need for any realistic basis. The Monkey Island series was quite successful and based on pure pirate tropes, "pirates who don't do anything" and a lot of humour.
It's not a bad combination, that.

If you do want guns on the ships, make most ships friendly and don't allow the players to attack friendly ships.
You can have some "evil" pirates who want to get the treasure instead of you and maybe a navy ship or two, but nothing more.
Have you ever seen Cutthroat Island? That is basically a treasure hunt with all the piratey stuff that goes with it, but no actual "evil" pirating on the part of the main characters.
Refer again to "pirates who don't do anything" above.

Again just for some final thoughts; exploration is something I feel could definitely do with more discussion around, not just within age of sail media but as a design direction in general. And I feel the age of sail exemplifies a lot of the best parts of why we love to explore and undertake journeys to new and exciting places. Thanks again for your replies, looking forward to more!

Completely agreed! Exploration is definitely something that has always excited me as well.
While I like the Age of Sail in general, I am no great fan of any sort of "gritty realism".
I could just as much enjoy a fictitious version of that era that is a whole lot more light-hearted and fun that real life ever would have been.
Why not? In the end, games can be an amazing form of escapism.

I recall Extra Credits did an episode on exploration in games. Have a look:

 

[Pieter Boelen]

@Thagarr usually has some interesting stuff to say on subjects like this as well.
Here's to hoping he'll drop by with his words of wisdom soon!

 

[Thagarr]

Ahoy Jackseno, an interesting topic indeed! I have not read the entire thread yet, but I have glanced through it a bit. I will give it a more thorough read, which it certainly deserves, when I get the chance and have had a bit of time to think about my reply. From what I have read though, Pieter and Armada have done a pretty god job of explaining things, as usual.

A couple of things I would add though is that piracy has been around in one form or another ever since the first boat was put afloat on water. The term pirate can have many different meanings, depending on context and who you are asking. It really all depends on your point of view, as Pieter mentioned Frances Drake above, he was considered one of the most hated pirates to ever roam the seas by the Spanish and Portuguese. In England, of course, he was a national hero! Being a pirate can also be all about freedom, the chance to choose your own destiny, not one chosen for you by some insulated monarch. The United States would not be here in it's current form without the pirates and privateers that harassed the English fleet during the American Revolution. And of course, there is the always present, and all too human, blood thirsty greedy pirate. If you look close enough though, you can find those on Wall Street, or even Main Street, too. It's all about perspective!

 

[Jack Rackham]

That video was really a nice summary of exploration/discovery in games.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

@Mask: Any thoughts on this subject? Your ideas tend to be quite insightful.

 

[Mask]

Good timing, I just came on to check up on the site. This is a very interesting question.

One problem with the subject, is that piracy was in some ways was very much the order of the day in tall sail periods. There are cases of merchant ships raiding each other when they spot a chance to do so, privateers were often little better than endorsed pirates, and I believe some navy ships may have also indulged themselves on occasion. Life at sea was a rough time, and information was more limited, so people were more willing to do rough things, which are generally labelled piracy when associated with the water. So, how do we get away from piracy? Well, perhaps instead we should head straight for it?

Let's explore piracy, and deepen the player's understanding of it. It isn't just scurvy dogs with eye-patches and parrots doing evil for evil's sake, nor is it Erol Flyn freedom fighters and Robin Hoods at sea. There were civilians who were secret pirates, part-time pirates, pirates who later cleared their name by joining another side in a war, people who were pirates to one side but not to the other, crews who mutinied against poor conditions or out of personal vileness and so were branded pirates, and in the case of Captain Kid, people unwillingly made pirates. I feel the problem isn't the association with piracy, but the association with very cartoony piracy, that lacks depth and the realities. And some people who were not pirates could still do very bad things which we associate with pirates (East India Company, anyone?).

To put it another way, pirate was an extreme insult leveraged against your enemies, and sometimes against your allies who have gone too far. You could, for example, have in the game that someone who dislikes you spreads rumours about your piratical deeds (which you may've done), saying that if they had more evidence they'd have you charged. Or, you could do that to them instead. You could even have to defend yourself in court against baseless or non-baseless accusations of this nature. I'm less familiar with how common these cases were, but I recall something akin to that happening somewhat frequently.

And as mentioned, you might catch merchants pirating each other, or meet an ex-pirate, or be declared a pirate by one side and a hero by another, you might catch a ship after a non-violent mutiny with the task to sink them or convince them to get back to work to avoid being labelled pirates, which combined with talking with the right characters ought to deepen the concept of piracy suitably. Looking back through the thread, I notice some of what I've mentioned has already been said.

Does this help to answer the question?



If I might be allowed an offtopic aside, I would like to announce the completion of my first video game. Dying: http://mask.itch.io/dying . I entered it into the WAG Game Jam, just a couple of days ago: http://itch.io/jam/wag-challenge . If you feel like checking it out, the organizer would be happy. I'd also love for you to have a look at my game. Sorry for this aside.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

If I might be allowed an offtopic aside, I would like to announce the completion of my first video game. Dying: http://mask.itch.io/dying . I entered it into the WAG Game Jam, just a couple of days ago: http://itch.io/jam/wag-challenge . If you feel like checking it out, the organizer would be happy. I'd also love for you to have a look at my game. Sorry for this aside.

Why don't you make a new thread for it here?
http://www.piratesahoy.net/forums/alternative-game.4/
Might be more visible that way. And perhaps @Thagarr and/or @Red Back Dude would consider it frontpage/Twitter/Facebook-worthy.
No need to hide your announcement.

 

[Jackseno]

I'm definitely open for suggestions there, though. It is always fun to allow different types of gameplay in the same game.
And while we do have an "Explorer" player type, that controls mainly character skills and items at game start and doesn't do much else (yet).

An interesting design challenge! Sometimes a good way to make players feel rewarded for exploring is to allow them to see somewhere they could potentially go, and then make them aware of what they will need to do in order to get there.

Whether it's defeating a group of enemies between them and their destination, accruing funds to pass a checkpoint or toll (Such as the New Vegas strip entrance in Fallout) or acquiring proper means of transportation or other gear/hardware in order to get there.

So it's less about what they do when they get there, but what they do in order to get to the next place. Which should hopefully facilitate their next set of exploring.

That does actually sound like quite a piratey approach. As far as I'm concerned, there doesn't need to be anything wrong with that.

Yes! As I mentioned before, setting players as pirates doesn't outright bother me. It fits very neatly in line with my design aspirations. I do worry about player expectations and stereotypes though, as we are discussing.

Ever heard of "The pirates who don't do anything"?

Yup! I am well aware of this particular trope, and I can very much see how it would align itself with a more peaceful play experience. However, I feel it would be just as limiting if not more so than a pirate crew played straight. (Not that this is the only alternative of course, as I am very glad to deduce from all this!)

The issue I take with the pirates who don't do anything isn't from a thematic or realism standpoint (Nor is it a need to steer clear of potentially 'evil' protagonists') but again from a gameplay perspective. Players need context in order to care about and better understand what they're doing, but too much of this in one direction will begin to limit what it is they can or will do, especially when in order to facilitate the contextualisation we start making arbitrary restrictions such as making players unable to attack certain NPCs (Like you suggest).

Here I've outlined a sort of play-experience directive chart for Tempest that is very simplistic. This is because I feel like in order for player's to properly gel with a game about exploring they need to feel agency within the space they occupy. The more control, options and actions they have available to them, the more responsible they will feel when they discover new things and places within their world. The less control they have,
the more they will feel like their discoveries were inevitable and just sort of delivered to them via the same experience every other player has received.

Again this does kind of point to piracy being a logical place to go when looking to empower a group of players with freedoms, and also place them aboard a sailing ship. But I'm hoping if I can frame it just right with the set up, players and observers might not immediately pigeonhole it in to all the cliches and stereotypes that go along with piracy in the first place (as we have been discussing).

To restate though; piracy isn't a bad thematic device, it's fantastic, it's just the limitations brought on by stereotypes and popular media that I feel may be harmful to media that adopts it.

Lastly, thank you for the Extra Credits link. I'm a big fan of their stuff and made sure to dig trough all their open world videos when starting Tempest. It always helps to revisit their videos though, the mechanical discovery they mention is something I've been thinking about a lot in particular. I quietly hope that when we have a chance to flesh out the operational mechanics of our sailing ships in a multiplayer environment that the discovery of simply how to sail ships in Tempest will fit this description (We will see though!)

Ahoy Jackseno, an interesting topic indeed! I have not read the entire thread yet, but I have glanced through it a bit. I will give it a more thorough read, which it certainly deserves, when I get the chance and have had a bit of time to think about my reply. From what I have read though, Pieter and Armada have done a pretty god job of explaining things, as usual.

Thanks! Looking forward to your thoughts =)

So, how do we get away from piracy? Well, perhaps instead we should head straight for it?

Let's explore piracy, and deepen the player's understanding of it. It isn't just scurvy dogs with eye-patches and parrots doing evil for evil's sake, nor is it Erol Flyn freedom fighters and Robin Hoods at sea. There were civilians who were secret pirates, part-time pirates, pirates who later cleared their name by joining another side in a war, people who were pirates to one side but not to the other, crews who mutinied against poor conditions or out of personal vileness and so were branded pirates, and in the case of Captain Kid, people unwillingly made pirates. I feel the problem isn't the association with piracy, but the association with very cartoony piracy, that lacks depth and the realities. And some people who were not pirates could still do very bad things which we associate with pirates (East India Company, anyone?).

This is something I would love to do, to somehow demonstrate the depth of the subject and get past the cartoony piracy that is at the forefront of a lot of peoples minds. (Even a lot of my development team!)
This is much easier said than done though. It's difficult for me in particular to throw too much predetermined story or exposition at players in my game due to the open ended approach I want to take. We can however, fine tune the established setting as much as we want. Something that, hopefully with the help already provided here, can have a lot of forethought and work put in to it. As I've mentioned earlier in the thread as well - due to the position Tempest is in, now is probably the best time to be making these kinds of decisions and changes. (Which isn't to say they couldn't be made later though)

 

[Mask]

Hmm, there are a number of methods you could try, depending on the exact kind of result you want. One thing is, that the players will start with a cartoony expectation of pirates, that we can assume. So the question in writing is how to turn that on its head in an interesting way.

You could, for example, capture a pirate inspired by Captain Kid (they found his silver, recently), who acts very gentlemanly and noble and accepts his capture to the point where the player can choose to let him wander around deck freely if they desire--to the point where the player can speak to them saying, "he has strange ways for a pirate," and they'll hear how his crew committed evil acts, and so he was branded a pirate, and had to escape, but he knew God would catch up with him someday. The player might be able to go as far as pretend the pirate captain is dead, or even recruit him, though your other officers will advise you against this (if you get caught, you'll be labelled as pirates too). That shows another angle to piracy, and makes for an interesting story--it also works as a sort of reconstruction of the noble pirate trope, though his actions as a pirate were still vile (and the player should be able to condemn him with such, which the pirate would likely agree with).

If the player is going into port after pirating one of that nation's ships, you could have a conversation with an officer about how he's worried that you might have been discovered, and will be arrested. You could have a series of small encounters like this, including a trial where they try to condemn you as a pirate, which you can face and get caught, face and get cleared of such wrongdoing (even if you did it), or run away from and be branded as a pirate for certain. You could make it like the court from Chrono Trigger, where some decisions you didn't necessarily realise were decisions effect the outcome (like whether you slaughter potential witnesses, or even arrange the death of your guilty-feeling sailors lest they might testify against you).

One thing I would consider, is that the non-violent path isn't really a pacifist path, historically. If a merchant ship found pirates run aground, half starved and weak, they would gladly take them captive along with any plunder from the ship (whether they sell the pirates as slaves and smuggle the cargo or turn it into the authorities for a bounty would be a secondary matter). Merchants ships would plunder each other, if they thought a good opportunity had arisen to do so. And merchants were often very ready to defend themselves with force against pirates.
An interesting thing with what you mention about running from combat, is that it's a common thing for pirates to do. Pirates and even military tend to be creatures of opportunity, as the point of the matter is personal gain. If your enemies can wreak horrible, expensive damage on you in your attempt to capture them, what good does it do you? In many ways, the life of a merchant isn't that different from the life of a pirate, except the pirate is actively seeking those dangerous opportunities, sailing into potentially dangerous waters, whereas the merchant is trying to avoid those situations as best they can while profiting. Either way, both are living more or less the same life, a rough life at sea.

One other thing you could consider having, is that you catch some of your sailors discussing pirates, worried they'll run into them, and you can criticise them about such base talk--for five years you have never run into pirates. They explain that while the waters they frequented before were peaceful, there are reports of pirates attacking ships around their heading. This could show that some ships sail for years and never even encounter pirates, and the concerned talk about them could be unusual for some ships (if you were sailing anywhere near pirate attacks, then concern and suspicion of pirates would be the order of the day).

If you have recruitable companions or officers, one of them could have the backstory of being a famous pirate on the enemy side. He mightn't tell you this when you hire him, but might notice his apprehension when you sail into ports that want his head. Or, he may proudly state it in his résumé, being a hero of the port of whichever nation he's in.

I forgot to mention. You could have that sometimes you'll find a ship in a poor position, a good opportunity for a pirate. One of the officers might subtly suggest that it's a good thing no pirate is around, as the ship contains much bounty which easily would be taken in its strife, with the option of you saying, "Indeed... it is truly well we are here before them. Get the weapons from the hold." Another officer might plead with you that it is no Christian deed to betray men in their time of peril, and you can decide whether to be swayed by him, have him punished for his insubordinate insistence, or perform the deed with or without him.

On that note, one thing you could deepen with pirates is remove the idea of the pirate king captain, having your men become more belligerent once you obtain pirate status. If you do too many things they dislike, rather than muttering about mutinies, the bosun may tell you plain-faced that you'd better clean up your act or they're going to elect a new captain. And the worse your control of the crew, the more the bosun will nag you to do this or that on behalf of the crew (on many pirate ships, the bosun was in charge outside of battle). That'd help destroy the idea of pirates being free. You might have to organize a mutiny against your own ship to regain control.

 

[Redbeard]

"My question then is; Is the pirate moniker too closely bound to sailing ships?

I can't speak for the rest of the world, but it is very important to note that here in America, history isn't a popular subject. It isn't going to get you a well paying job, and its not as exciting or as brain taxing as most other subjects. (er... subjectively of course.) Then you have the problem that the United States just doesn't really care about the Age of Sail, in most history classes the only ships even touched on are the ironclads. So right there you have a complete lack of information and interest. 99% of American's only exposure to the age of sail is... you guessed it, Carribbean pirates. A period which the United States had little to no bearing on. The reason Pirates vs Ninjas became an actual debate is because here in the USA they are about as equally unpopular. Its just not a subject most adults care about.

Which explains why we have so few Age of Sails games.

 

[Jackseno]

You could, for example, capture a pirate inspired by Captain Kid (they found his silver, recently), who acts very gentlemanly and noble and accepts his capture to the point where the player can choose to let him wander around deck freely if they desire-

I like this idea! Having the players take on an actual pirate as a prisoner might help them realise the contrast between themselves and the captive. Some dialogue options might also help the players to make the conscious decision that they want to be pirates instead of just subconsciously defaulting to it (This would also help players who might want to distance themselves from piracy but hadn't realised it as an option)

I also really like the idea of putting players in court rooms and holding them to account. It would probably be tricky to implement, but it would be an excellent way of making the player feel like they have a real impact on the world.

One thing I would consider, is that the non-violent path isn't really a pacifist path, historically. If a merchant ship found pirates run aground, half starved and weak, they would gladly take them captive along with any plunder from the ship

This would lend some support to framing the players as merchants, which I am still considering. (As well as the other angles)

One other thing you could consider having, is that you catch some of your sailors discussing pirates

Things like this are particularly difficult to implement as the ship the players will sail will only be sailed by the players. Placing NPCs on board gets tricky because they will be expected to help sail the ship, not to mention fight if the need arose. Which only makes things more complicated!

Not to say the players couldn't still have actual in-game dialogue trees with each other though - (Divinity: Original Sin does this very nicely) it could still be quite complicated to achieve.

Dialogue with NPCs on land or other ships is something I'm interested in though and so will most probably happen. I like a lot of your ideas!

 

[Mask]

Hmm, those are tougher restrictions to work within. Even with the captain kid pirate, it means all the dialogue has to be handled when you capture him, unless there's some specific junction where you can force it to appear. Not being able to have dialogue on the ship means all the story has to be narrated off ship, which is a problem when many of your actions and much of the story occurs on your ship.

Depends on the specifics of your dialogue system. If you could have pirates talk to you at the start of battle, and again as their ship is burning and sinking, that gives you some at least Mega Man esque story segments before and after major encounters.

You could encourage players to visit taverns to discuss their adventures with their crew, who is resting and recuperating, or some work around like that. Depends what's best within your limitations to communicate the most story for the least complexity/words/effort.


You might be able to rig the court room once or twice, using simplified variables. Either the player is accused falsely, and the information they have to contradict is fairly randomized, or they have several facts of a genuine act of piracy, which you still have to contradict. As to how you would do that, it's a little hard to say without knowing details of the conversation system. You could simply have it like Chrono Trigger, where the lawyer tries to trick you into admitting things you didn't do. In that case, the details would be sort of trickery--the game would just remember what sea you were in when you raided a particular ship, and then choose a few of those details accurately, which you have to deny despite their trueness. The judges will have doubts, but if there is lacking evidence, and you deny in plausibly, they have to let you off (though you may not want to appear in that nation's ports again, depending on the direction of the narrative).

For another idea of how to humanize and deepen pirates, you could have some dialogue when taking pirates prisoner after defeating an enemy ship. They may try to sell you a sob story, or plead for mercy, etc., and you could give some exposition as to what will happen to them and how they feel about it--they might also try to justify their deeds, quite likely lying in the process ("Our captain was a harsh master, so it was only reasonable that we oppose him. And though we tried to be peaceable, the captain would have none of it--so we had no choice, but to have none of him.").