Fixed Jack Sparrow - Relations Throughout Storyline (including turning PIRATE!)

[Talisman]

Having given this some further thought - I think the change in Jack Sparrow's relations with the various nations should be consistent between the 2 stories ( Mings-Brotherhood and Brock Brinkley) otherwise there is going to be a lot of work changing relations in the Brock-Brinkley Story especially with all the different paths it has.

Since both main stories have 4 points in common I think that any changes to Jack Sparrow's Served Nation should occur at the first 3 of those points.

the 4 common points are:-

1- The Start
2- Meeting Tia Dalma at Muscetto Cove
3- Beckett Burning Wicked Wench / meeting Davy Jones
4- Curse of the Black Pearl ( film quest)

At the Start I think Jack should have Served Nation as English since that is what he is and although he is working for Mings in the Brotherhood he is not yet committed to them, in the Brock-Brinkley story he is looking for the Governor's daughters and working for/with Shaypen.

When Jack meets Tia Dalma - he decides to desert Beckett so he is no longer English - but has not yet fully committed to the Pirates so I think his Served Nation should be Personal.

When Beckett captures Jack and destroys the Wicked Wench and Jack meets Davy Jones, from then he is fully committed to the Pirates and his Served Nation is Pirate.

This would give a constent structure for Jack Sparrow's relations with the Nations for the 2 Main Stories

If we don't keep the changes consistent between the 2 Main Stories, then in the Brock - Brinkley story story it is going to be confusing, for instance, since Beckett can hire you both in Port Royale and Speightstown depending on which path the player chooses, and a lot of work is going to have to be done to change the relations during that story.

- France becomes hostile when attacking the 'Volcano' (When does this happen? Isn't that the Hornblower storyline???)

This is in Brock-Brinkley - when you are trying to talk to Barbossa on Martinique - sink the Volcano so you become Barbossa's friend.

- England technically turn hostile in THIS quests_reaction.c case, which is just prior to the deal with Davy Jones:
Code:

case "sunk_wench":
GiveShip2Character(pchar,"HMS_Bounty","Lindesfarne",ENGLAND,-1,true,true);
HoistFlag(PERSONAL_NATION);
PChar.Flags.Personal = 3; // PB: EITC Flag
PChar.Flags.Personal.texture = 3;
break;

Actually, perhaps the whole "joining the pirates" thing should occur ONLY if you accept the deal.
But if you decline, England should still turn hostile, no? You still double-crossed Beckett, after all.

Agreed - if you don't accept the deal you are taken out of the story - which I think people only play by accident.

From my side, I reckon the best way to deal with this though is to:
1. Set England hostile when the Wench is burned
2. Set the Pirates friendly when you accept the deal with Davy Jones
3. Change the dialog with Davy Jones to indicate that you now CAN join the Pirate Brotherhood at Nevis IF YOU WISH!
That allows deliberate player choice there, but WILL still turn ALL nations hostile if you choose to do so.

So what would your Served Nation be if you don't go and see the Pirates on Nevis -- still Personal ?

(Perhaps Personal Nation start should have all nations Wary, rather than Neutral?)

That sounds a good suggestion for a general principle

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Since both main stories have 4 points in common I think that any changes to Jack Sparrow's Served Nation should occur at the first 3 of those points.

Definitely very valid point there! I very much agree!

At the Start I think Jack should have Served Nation as English since that is what he is and although he is working for Mings in the Brotherhood he is not yet committed to them, in the Brock-Brinkley story he is looking for the Governor's daughters and working for/with Shaypen.

Thanks for that; so I'll keep the game start the same as it is now then.
Saves me the trouble of figuring out some sort of "personal Served Nation" that changes to England shortly after.

When Jack meets Tia Dalma - he decides to desert Beckett so he is no longer English - but has not yet fully committed to the Pirates so I think his Served Nation should be Personal.

We can do that for sure. It won't affect much though.
Served Nation is used to tie your relations to that of another nation with Changing Nation Relations, but that doesn't apply in Jack Sparrow.
Served Nation PIRATE is also used to trigger the "traitor" behaviour.
Other than that, the only difference it makes is the "yellow marked nation name" in the Questbook interface.
And of course if we DO decide to auto-hoist your Served Nation flag when your false flag is recognized in Arcade Game Mode, it would affect that too.
That being said, it makes sense for the story and we can certainly do that.
I imagine Jack's actual relations to England SHOULD remain the same at that stage though? Or perhaps reduce back down to Wary?

Agreed - if you don't accept the deal you are taken out of the story - which I think people only play by accident.

Will do! England hostile on the Wench burning, but pirates friendly ONLY if you accept the deal.

As for players doing this by accident, indeed I could imagine that happening. Perhaps we should add an option so you can get back INTO the story too.
The idea at the time was to add all sorts of different choices to the storyline, so you could play Jack Sparrow's story if he had NOT made the mistake of selling his soul.

So what would your Served Nation be if you don't go and see the Pirates on Nevis -- still Personal ?

If we go with your suggestion and set Served Nation to Personal after the Tia Dalma scenes,
then when making the deal with Davy Jones and NOT choosing to join the Pirates at Nevis:
- England will have turned hostile due to the Wench burning
- The Pirates will still have turned friendly
- Your Served Nation will remain Personal, though even any MINOR act of piracy will change this to Pirate

We can delay this by setting the pirates to be Wary rather than Friendly, though for the Jack Sparrow story,
I quite LIKE the idea of any act of piracy after that scene actually marked you as a pirate. It has to happen to Jack sooner or later, right?

If you then DO officially join the Pirates:
- All other nations will turn hostile
- You basically gain a LoM with the pirates and can gain ranks and promotions with them
- You'll probably need to use lots of false flags and back entrances into towns because you won't be very welcome in most of them

Either way, the story will probably make sense. Joining the pirates makes for a bigger challenge, but ALSO sounds very much more Jack Sparrow-ey to me.
But I could imagine some players don't want that and just want to "breeze through the story" without dealing with extra challenges imposed by the game mechanics.
So by that reasoning, giving them the choice of "you will now be welcomed by the Brethren of the Coast, but it is up to you" would probably be fairest.

Main question then is: Would players EVER bother actually doing this?
That is why I suggested disabling the Pirate Lord sidequests unless your Served Nation IS Pirate.
When it is, you may be recognized for that in any non-pirate town, in which case you might as well actually join the pirates and gain ranks with them.
It is the Sparrow-ey thing to do, after all!

Though players COULD also get past that again by buying a LoM from any of the nations.
But by that time, you aren't actually playing the film Jack Sparrow story anymore but are clearly following an alternate universe version.
Which is fine by me; that was always meant to be possible with that storyline.

That sounds a good suggestion for a general principle

In general I quite like that idea because "Served Nation = neutral with everyone except the pirates" sounds like a bit of a cheat to me and a boring one at that.
Having all nations Wary instead would give an added challenge though, because: Not a Bug - Merchants don't deal with wary neutral characters | PiratesAhoy! - Pirate Games | Reviews | News | Forum
That means you cannot normally deal with ANY traders in the early game, until you gain a two levels of reputation.
Though you could, of course, try some false flags to get around that. You're still "Unknown" at that stage anyway.
Getting a LoM ASAP would get past that too.

Changing this might surprise players but does potentially make for a more interesting and challenging early game.

 

[Talisman]

I imagine Jack's actual relations to England SHOULD ..... reduce back down to Wary?

Yes - I think that relations with England should become Wary

Will do! England hostile on the Wench burning, but pirates friendly ONLY if you accept the deal.

As for players doing this by accident, indeed I could imagine that happening. Perhaps we should add an option so you can get back INTO the story too.
The idea at the time was to add all sorts of different choices to the storyline, so you could play Jack Sparrow's story if he had NOT made the mistake of selling his soul.

Yes - something like what happens in Bartolomeu where you can leave the story then go and talk to someone and pick it up again - would be nice. There are similar exits I think in Lucas when you first talk to the Lucas' father you can refuse the quest then go back to him later and he will offer it to you again.

The Jack Sparrow Quest still has a lot of rough edges that need polishing - it is just finding the time to be able to do it.

If we go with your suggestion and set Served Nation to Personal after the Tia Dalma scenes,
then when making the deal with Davy Jones and NOT choosing to join the Pirates at Nevis:
- England will have turned hostile due to the Wench burning
- The Pirates will still have turned friendly
- Your Served Nation will remain Personal, though even any MINOR act of piracy will change this to Pirate*

We can delay this by setting the pirates to be Wary rather than Friendly, though for the Jack Sparrow story,
I quite LIKE the idea of any act of piracy after that scene actually marked you as a pirate. It has to happen to Jack sooner or later, right?

I also like the idea of staying Personal with the risk of a small act of Piracy making you a pirate - I always think of Jack Sparrow as someone who puts himself first and looks after his own interests rather than having any loyalty to any group including pirates.

If the player manages not to commit even a minor act of Piracy and keep their Nation as Personal then I think the Served Nation should be changed when the film Part of the quest starts - at the grand entrance to Port Royale cutscene - so that Jack is a Pirate through the last section of the Main Story

Either way, the story will probably make sense. Joining the pirates makes for a bigger challenge, but ALSO sounds very much more Jack Sparrow-ey to me.
But I could imagine some players don't want that and just want to "breeze through the story" without dealing with extra challenges imposed by the game mechanics.
So by that reasoning, giving them the choice of "you will now be welcomed by the Brethren of the Coast, but it is up to you" would probably be fairest.

Main question then is: Would players EVER bother actually doing this?
That is why I suggested disabling the Pirate Lord side quests unless your Served Nation IS Pirate.
When it is, you may be recognized for that in any non-pirate town, in which case you might as well actually join the pirates and gain ranks with them.
It is the Sparrow-ey thing to do, after all!

I like the idea of disabling the Pirate Lord side quests so that you can only play them if your Served Nation IS Pirate. So if the players become a pirate deliberately, or accidentally they can do them, But if they are goody-goodys and manage to keep their Personal Nation status then they have to wait till they are changed to Pirate at the Curse of the Black Pearl to play the side quests.

I think a lot of people do play the side quests after they have done the whole of the Main Story. But it will be interesting to see if that is actually the case

 

[Pieter Boelen]

The Jack Sparrow Quest still has a lot of rough edges that need polishing - it is just finding the time to be able to do it.

Having a to-do list would definitely help there.

I think a lot of people do play the side quests after they have done the whole of the Main Story. But it will be interesting to see if that is actually the case

Some were deliberately written to affect the main quest if done early.
Mainly the Lucas/First Contact combination which creates a happy ending both for the player AND Davy Jones.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Here is what I've done so far:

1. Start of game = Unchanged with England relations and loyalty.

2. After the Tia Dalma meeting, the following now happens:

    case "Goodbye Tia Dalma2":
       ChangeCharacterAddress(characterFromID("Tia Dalma"), "None", "");
       pchar.Jack = "Met_Tia";
       PChar.Flags.Personal = 1; // PB: Non-British Jack-flag
       PChar.Flags.Personal.texture = 3;
       if(GetRMRelation(PChar, ENGLAND) > REL_AFTERATTACK) SetRMRelation(PChar, ENGLAND, REL_AFTERATTACK); // PB: England no longer trusts you
       SetServedNation(PERSONAL_NATION); // PB: And you are no longer loyal to them
     break;

So England becomes Wary and you become "Personal".

3. Just prior to the talk to Davy Jones:

    case "storm_complete":
       ControlsInit(GetTargetPlatform(), false);
       // Screwface
       SaveGlobalOptions();// TIH return the key settings to the user Sep3'06
       // Screwface : end

       PostEvent("DoInfoShower",100,"s","");

       RestorePassengers("Blaze");
       pchar.tempmoney = pchar.money;
       pchar.money = 0;
       pchar.quest.main_line = "speak_with_peasant";
       pchar.quest.Luc_start.over = "yes";
       pchar.jack = "pirate";
       if(GetRMRelation(PChar, ENGLAND) > REL_WAR  ) SetRMRelation(PChar, ENGLAND, REL_WAR);    // PB: Your actions have turned England hostile
       if(GetRMRelation(PChar, PIRATE)  < REL_NEUTRAL) SetRMRelation(PChar, PIRATE, REL_NEUTRAL);   // PB: But the pirates approve
       PChar.Flags.Personal = 1; // PB: Non-British Jack-flag
       PChar.Flags.Personal.texture = 3;

England turns hostile and the Pirates turn Friendly.
All other nation relations remain unchanged (so originally the same as England).
Served Nation remains Personal, so you have to choose to join the Pirate Brotherhood yourself.
To indicate this changed behaviour, I changed Davy Jones' dialog to this:

"So be it... After your actions, you should consider joining the Brethren of the Coast at the pirate settlement on #sisland_Quebradas Costillas#. You may wish to reacquaint yourself with Captain Barbossa as well.",

4. All jump-starts have been changed accordingly, with the extra assumption made that the player DID decide to join the pirates.
However, if you play through the story yourself, you obviously have the choice to not do that.
The game won't force you into becoming loyal to the pirates at any point afterwards during the storyline either.

5. STILL TO BE DONE: Modifying the Pirate Lord sidequests so they won't start unless you're actually a pirate and/or also have joined the pirates.
This to encourage players to DO join them as that should make the game that much more Sparrow-ey.

If possible, I'd appreciate savegames just prior to the spots where those quests start.
That way I can modify their dialogs to point players towards Nevis in a way that actually fits the story.

6. STILL TO BE DONE: Have Davy Jones be available somewhere to restart the main storyline if you decided to not take the original offer.
Anyone got any (SIMPLE!) idea of how the player might get to run into Davy Jones again?

 

[Talisman]

5. STILL TO BE DONE: Modifying the Pirate Lord sidequests so they won't start unless you're actually a pirate and/or also have joined the pirates.
This to encourage players to DO join them as that should make the game that much more Sparrow-ey.

If possible, I'd appreciate savegames just prior to the spots where those quests start.
That way I can modify their dialogs to point players towards Nevis in a way that actually fits the story.

Save games attached

Turks - about to talk to Sao Feng
Hispaniola - about to talk to Capt Chevalle
Aruba - About to enter Oranjestad and witness fight - Gombo vs Slaver ( Jocard Quest)
Cuba - Havana about to talk to Spanish soldier outside tavern before going in and talking to Askay
Jamaica - About to ask Father Bernard about problems & and be sent to Barbados (Ammand )
Barbados - about to talk to tavernkeeper before going to church and running into Ammand

I was not sure about Ammand - but it might be needed if you do it separately from Sao Feng

6. STILL TO BE DONE: Have Davy Jones be available somewhere to restart the main storyline if you decided to not take the original offer.
Anyone got any (SIMPLE!) idea of how the player might get to run into Davy Jones again?

How about the Pirate hideout on Cozumel ( turn it into Davy's secret lair or Davy and Tia Dalma's lovers hideaway ) - if the player does not take the original offer then Davy Jones can tell them to go to an island with a native temple on it and find a Secret Hideout. There should also be a Quest Book entry telling the player where to go in case they forget what Davy said.

The only other place I can think of is Isla de Muerta - but I don't think that goes with the story - having Teague, Van Der Deckken and Davy all using it at various times ( and also the other guy on the other beach ) means it is getting a bit crowded.

 

[ANSEL]

I really like the idea about the Pirate hideout on Cozumel,thats good.
For long time I have been thinking about this hideout, want to use it
more in the game.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Agreed on Cozumel. That is actually where the Davy Jones Free Play option starts too, so that matches up nicely.
I think it goes unused in the Jack Sparrow storyline and most definitely Isla de Muerta is becoming rather crowded.

And thanks @Talisman for the saves! I'll see about setting these things up tomorrow.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

How about the Pirate hideout on Cozumel ( turn it into Davy's secret lair or Davy and Tia Dalma's lovers hideaway ) - if the player does not take the original offer then Davy Jones can tell them to go to an island with a native temple on it and find a Secret Hideout. There should also be a Quest Book entry telling the player where to go in case they forget what Davy said.

Looks like this is working:

I have added the Isla de Muerta Cabin into the Secret Lair too like we had thought of doing a while back.
That is where you can now find Jones if you decline the first time.
As a bonus, there will be all sorts of Davy crew walking around the Lair instead of your own.

There is no huge penalty for taking this route if you so choose.
But this does remove your own crew from the Lair, so that's a bit of a setback, I suppose....

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Turks - about to talk to Sao Feng

Sao Feng seems to be a bit delusional. He keeps saying he is in Singapore!

 

[Talisman]

@Pieter Boelen
While you are editing those quest book entries -- could you remove the reference to Barbossa being on a beach on Martinique (shown in the 2nd text in your post) since he is not there but in Tortuga tavern.

I think there is also a reference to that in Davy's dialog which should also be removed.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Indeed I did run into that. Can do; that's easy.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

While you are editing those quest book entries -- could you remove the reference to Barbossa being on a beach on Martinique (shown in the 2nd text in your post) since he is not there but in Tortuga tavern.

I think there is also a reference to that in Davy's dialog which should also be removed.

Done now in his dialog and both the applicable questbook entries.
Let me know if you end up finding any other similarly wrong references.

 

[ANSEL]

A question about Vanderdeckens cabin, will it be there in the other storylines too.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Turks - about to talk to Sao Feng

Got started on these ones:

A question about Vanderdeckens cabin, will it be there in the other storylines too.

Yes. It will just be empty and basically serve no purpose.

 

[ANSEL]

Well thats great, I wonted it there for so long time, as a base for me self.
I wonder if there is a coffin which can be used to store some stuff.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

@Talisman: Do you know where this questbook entry is triggered?

I ran into my father after helping the Pirate Lord, Sao Feng. He had heard of my adventures and decided to give me his piece of eight. I am now the Pirate Lord of the Caribbean!

That one should also be prevented if you're not actually IN the Pirate Brotherhood.

Well thats great, I wonted it there for so long time, as a base for me self.
I wonder if there is a coffin which can be used to store some stuff.

I don't remember seeing one. It is probably safer to store your stuff in your captain's cabin on the ship.
Some boxes can get reset after a while....

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Turks - about to talk to Sao Feng
Hispaniola - about to talk to Capt Chevalle
Aruba - About to enter Oranjestad and witness fight - Gombo vs Slaver ( Jocard Quest)
Cuba - Havana about to talk to Spanish soldier outside tavern before going in and talking to Askay
Jamaica - About to ask Father Bernard about problems & and be sent to Barbados (Ammand )
Barbados - about to talk to tavernkeeper before going to church and running into Ammand

I was not sure about Ammand - but it might be needed if you do it separately from Sao Feng

So far I have:
- Ensured Sao Feng's sidequest doesn't continue if you didn't join the Pirates
- Same thing for Chevalle
- Rewrote Askay's dialog and check so that it makes more sense that he refuses to deal with a non-pirate
- Have Ammand's part in the story not continue until you do join the Pirates
- I didn't change the beginning of the Church Help sidequest as it doesn't make sense for Father Bernard to only deal with pirates
- Likewise, I left the Gombo/Slaver part alone as Gentleman Jocard isn't actually a Pirate Lord when you first meet him there

I think that should about do it?

 

[Talisman]

@Talisman: Do you know where this questbook entry is triggered?

That one should also be prevented if you're not actually IN the Pirate Brotherhood.

It is right at the end of Sao Feng's quest - return Body guards to Sao Feng then walk back through Grand Turk & Teague walks up and talks to you and gives you the"Piece of Eight"


In both_reaction.c

case "Teague_gives_Piece_of_8":
       changeCharacterAddressGroup(characterFromID("Teague Sparrow"), "Turks_Town", "goto", "character11");

       LAi_SetActorType(characterFromID("Teague Sparrow"));
       LAi_ActorDialog(characterFromID("Teague Sparrow"), pchar, "", 100.0, 100.0);
       characters[GetCharacterIndex("Teague Sparrow")].dialog.currentnode = "Piece of 8";

       ChangeCharacterAddressGroup(characterFromID("Sao Feng's Body1"), "none", "", "");
       ChangeCharacterAddressGroup(characterFromID("Sao Feng's Body2"), "none", "", "");
     break;

     case "Teague_gives_Piece_of_8_1":
       AddQuestRecord("Pirate Lord", 4);  <<<-----HERE

       LAi_ActorGoToLocation(characterFromID("Teague Sparrow"), "reload", "reload1", "none", "", "", "", 0.0);
     break;

Can't remember what Teague actually says to Jack

 

[Talisman]

So far I have:
- Ensured Sao Feng's sidequest doesn't continue if you didn't join the Pirates
- Same thing for Chevalle
- Rewrote Askay's dialog and check so that it makes more sense that he refuses to deal with a non-pirate
- Have Ammand's part in the story not continue until you do join the Pirates
- I didn't change the beginning of the Church Help sidequest as it doesn't make sense for Father Bernard to only deal with pirates
- Likewise, I left the Gombo/Slaver part alone as Gentleman Jocard isn't actually a Pirate Lord when you first meet him there

I think that should about do it?

Sounds good.