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IDEA: Supply and demand economy

taro8

taro8

HoO Team Member
2D Artist
Provisional
I was thinking is its possible to create supply and demand economy in PotC. You could link prices in shops with quantity of products the have in storage, so if you deliver large amount of, lets say, silver to Sao Jorge (sp?) its price will be lowered. It would be VERY important so you wont find yourself doing same runs over and over. Of course amount of stuff in shops storage would decrease or increase over time depending is its import good or export one.

Is it possible?
 
The current system is similar. If you bring 20 bags of weed into a store, you´ll get a higher price than for 113 bags. Watch the unit price lower in the buttom of the interface, when transfering large amounts to the storeowner.
 
Yes but you can make same high profit courses all the time (if you want to trade same amount of goods), my idea is to make prices dependable on how much good the store have in stock.

EDIT: Also there should be failsafe that will make imposible for player to buy all of one type of good and the sell it back to the shop for higher price.
 
Something like this might be possible, yes. There already is a more advanced economic system than the original game had, but it could certainly be improved.
Have you got any idea how this might work with the import/export/contraband goods that are defined per island?
 
<!--quoteo(post=320072:date=May 15 2009, 05:14 PM:name=PeterWillemoes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PeterWillemoes @ May 15 2009, 05:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=320072"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The current system is similar. If you bring 20 bags of weed into a store, you´ll get a higher price than for 113 bags. Watch the unit price lower in the buttom of the interface, when transfering large amounts to the storeowner.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

LMAO! Weed!

Like you all said it is a supply & demand system already.
 
Yes. Besides, I don't think a supply & demand system would best simulate the carribean economy alone.
It could work for some goods we would add, like salt for example (would be important for some Dutch colonies!).
I think that if we manage some day to create a proper carribean economy, it would work on three scales :

- carribean own market. Salt, fruit, fish, rum... slaves. And some extra goods in the first time period (gold, pearls).
- carribean as an intermediate zone between America and Europe. Silver, gold, chocolate, precious wood, waiting to be taken from the spaniards (they don't sell them to non-spanish merchant), and to be re-oriented in other markets...
- carribean as part of a colonial empire : produce sugar, tobacco, to Europe. And import luxury goods (for example).

That's to say, I don't think we could have a proper Caribbean economy without including European countries and Spanish America somewhere.
 
Is it possible to add more good to the system? even if it was we would have to add more strings and update quests based on trade...
 
<!--quoteo(post=320095:date=May 15 2009, 11:26 AM:name=Pieter Boelen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pieter Boelen @ May 15 2009, 11:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=320095"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Something like this might be possible, yes. There already is a more advanced economic system than the original game had, but it could certainly be improved.
Have you got any idea how this might work with the import/export/contraband goods that are defined per island?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Lets say that we have these parameters:

base price - normal price for good, its what is put in INI files defining good
good in stock - how much shop have in stock

Its important to implement good mechanism that will govern this whole stuff I say something like this:

-base price also governs how much is "a lot" or "WE NEED MORE", higher base price good have lower "borders" for this (ie. 300 and 500 amount of gold is large difference while for food or fruits its pretty much the same)
-the higher base price is the bigger is impact of number in stock have on price in shop, ie. delivering, lets say, 300 units of silver and 300 of fruits is large difference later because drop for silver price will be higher then for price for fruits
-shop WONT sell you all good it have, amount of reserve they keep depends on base price, ie. the bigger price the lower amount of reserve, also if its imported good they will keep much larger reserve (ie. the wont sell you too much and for very high price)
-over time amount of good in stock that are imported drops (its consumed) while amount of export goods becomes higher (its produced)
-there is rather large chance that amount of import goods will increase as other traders also work

What do you think?

Of course there need to be failsafe that will prevent player from selling good back to the shop for higher price. I also dont have idea for contraband for now.
 
It certainly sounds interesting.

<!--quoteo(post=320151:date=May 16 2009, 02:16 AM:name=Computica)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Computica @ May 16 2009, 02:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=320151"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is it possible to add more good to the system? even if it was we would have to add more strings and update quests based on trade...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Is it possible? Certainly. But why would you want to? Having dozens of similar things don't add much to gameplay.
At least as far as I'm concerned. Same goes for weapons; why add hundreds of weapons if in the end, they're all samey-samey?
 
<!--quoteo(post=320217:date=May 16 2009, 01:06 PM:name=Pieter Boelen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pieter Boelen @ May 16 2009, 01:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=320217"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It certainly sounds interesting.

<!--quoteo(post=320151:date=May 16 2009, 02:16 AM:name=Computica)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Computica @ May 16 2009, 02:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=320151"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is it possible to add more good to the system? even if it was we would have to add more strings and update quests based on trade...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Is it possible? Certainly. But why would you want to? Having dozens of similar things don't add much to gameplay.
At least as far as I'm concerned. Same goes for weapons; why add hundreds of weapons if in the end, they're all samey-samey?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Yeah I'm fine with what goods we have too.
 
You need to justify the need for more goods, Computica. What will it add to the game, what purpose would it have?
I see what you mean, and will help you out a bit, because this is something I have given a thought:

As always, "improvement" is a matter of taste and this would probably not be interesting to the masses, only to a few. But I dont see any consumation in any of the islands, its like characters live a static life in PotC - they dont eat <i><b>wheat</b></i>(<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />), drink ale - live and breed? Also, plantations are now ingame, but there is no actual production. Production alone is not interesting, but it would be if we implemented processing to improve and develop the trading economy. Example:
AFAIK, cocoa and animal fat are used to produce chocolate, hence cocoa and animals is produced somewhere and processed into chocolate. But processing facilities does not come automatically with production facilities, as some islands have almost no population(=manpower) but lots of production(=raw materials). And some islands have lots of population, but no production.

So,maybe these new goods would need to be processed elsewhere = need transportation. We would develop the current economy from the current overall-level of exporting/importing into a detailed micro-economy, that will bring more life and atmosphere into the game, because the player now have the opportunity to become a link in between comsumation, production and processing.

People are different and have different approaches to this game. Some players wants exploration and adventures and is only playing quests, others are pure naval guys who like to feel powerfull by turning class-6 vessels into seagrass on the oceans with their 4 beloved man-o-wars. Somehow I think, there is a potential for the trading-geeks in PotC, if we did something about the merchant playing class. As trading is of now, I dont think there are much players, who prefers to play as merchants.
 
Personally I would certainly like to see a less "static" world and what you propose could contribute to the player feeling like he's actually in a world,
rather than in a set of 3D locations with random characters.
 
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"my idea is to make prices dependable on how much good the store have in stock."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly how things work now.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"EDIT: Also there should be failsafe that will make imposible for player to buy all of one type of good and the sell it back to the shop for higher price."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That one is tricky, because for some reason, I am sometimes only allowed to buy so much food, sailcloth etc - is this a bug or part of the game? If it is, that is a very smart feature.

Pieter is of course right, there is no need to add goods, just for the sake of..adding goods. In the end, it will not add to the variation of gameplay and it will end up as work, never being noticed by the player.
But if we be theoretical and throw the current use of goods out of the window and pretend, that we are starting all over with both current and added/suggested goods, maybe exclude some or mix them into categories where needed (i.e. Paprika+Cinnamon=Spices and Cloth=Linnen+Silk?) Then we could find a coherence between adding more goods and add to the gameplay in an interesting way, it would be great. Maybe mix export/import and contraband with politics, such as import/export blockades from certain countries <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/w00t.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":woot" border="0" alt="w00t.gif" /> I dont know the meaning or use of half of the goods, so I googled and attached production/export area and use to them:

-Salt (Europe; needed to store meat due to heat conditions)
-Rum (Caribbean; destilled from sugarcane)
-Sailcloth (Caribbean and Americas; made of cotton)
-Planks (Europe; new and repaired ships, mills, houses)
-Ale (Europe; brewed on malt, herbs, spices)
-Sugarcane (Caribbean; makes sugar, rum)
-Sugar (Caribbean; refined sugarcane)
-Animals (Europe; meat, dairies and leather)
-Mahogny (Caribbean)
-Coffee (Far East)
-Tea (Far East)
-Ebony (Far East)
-Chocolate (Americas)

-Tobacco (Americas)
-Wine (Europe)
-Vinegar (Caribbean; made of palm, coconut)
-Copra (Caribbean; from coconuts, used for coconut oil, animal food - can explode!)
-Spices (Far East; Paprika, Cinnamon)
-Fruits (Americas; pineapple, capsule, palm, coconut makes copra, banana makes rope)
-Cotton (Americas, Caribbean)
-Sandal (Americas, Caribbean; fragrance wood)
-Silver (Americas)
-Gold (Americas)
-Bricks (Europe; ballast on ships and needed for mansions)
-Medicines (Europe)
-Cocoa (Americas; needed for chocolate)
-Cloth: Silk (Americas; like linen a cooling fabric), Linen (Europe; a cooling fabric in hot conditions), Leather (Caribbean; from animals)
-Rope (Caribbean & Far East; made from bananas "manila" and cotton)
-Food (Fish, Corn, Meat, Wheat, Water, dairies etc) Maybe interesting, maybe not.<b>For</b>: habitants on the islands have different needs, as not everything is produced in one place. <b>Against</b>: the ships' purser will combine all these things into rations on a ship, including ale for grogg.

It would be nice, if anybody could somehow categorize these into a constraint set of rules, from a make-sense doctrine. A Simple Virtual Sailor have some great ideas with his three levels of economy, and I made this to fit into his idea. But I´ll leave it open to others. If contraband could be extended due to this, it would also be great for piracy, smuggling and sneaky business <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />
 
Leather can be made in the Caribbean, the only thing you need is cows/pigs. You can add it to the clothes category, since many people wore leather. Boots and shoes are also made of leather.

Bricks: Europe, as ballast on the journey to the Caribbean and then sold for houses there.

Silver: America's. Spain was the main producer of it, and it was very popular to pay your goods with, back in Europe.
 
Sounds interesting. I wouldn't mind if somebody did something with that. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />
 
Excellent Thomas - added! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"I wouldn't mind if somebody did something with that. wink.gif"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, it's just toying around a bit, mostly by trying to catch peoples imagination. Realism is not interesting in itself, but it could throw off some new aspects to gameplay or maybe just add to the atmosphere in the game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

If you cooked it all down to three goods, goods_import/goods_export/good_contraband the whole game would be plain boring. A variation of goods with a purpose can be used for adding to gameplay and atmosphere. What we have got so far, already opens up for a lot of things (as far as my imagination goes):

If no more ships can be build in the area due to lack of planks, your ship cannot be repaired before the arrival of a european ship. Bound to arrive on a certain date, you will have to be carefull until then, or pirate other ships for planks. This does'nt even need a quest - it grants itself, that you may loose everything if you choose wrong, depending on the situation.

Currently, if you´re a landowner, you may want to start your own illegal production of rum in certain areas. With the risk of getting caught selling it (contraband) but for a higher price. If sugar cane was produced nearby and sold cheap, people could make their own rum at home? Risk/benefit (and need of consumation of goods) <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

And if we be the only famous pirates left in the west, why would we plunder a spanish gold fleet - only to hand it all over to a suspicious guy with fake eyebrowes and an ugly hat!? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/whippa.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":whipa" border="0" alt="whippa.gif" /> WHY are we not burying our treasures like normal pyrates! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/treas1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":treas" border="0" alt="treas1.gif" />

EDIT: I will be gone for a week. Feel free to add and discuss, please.
 
It certainly does open up gameplay options that way. I like your example. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />
Good luck next week and see you soon. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/doff.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":doff" border="0" alt="doff.gif" />
 
I would like to suggest a ( politically incorrect? ) addition to the goods in the game - Slaves.

They were a major part of the caribbean economy throughout the period, and the slave ships must have been attacked by pirates. Would it be possible to add slaves to the goods carried by merchant ships, and sold in stores.

Better still would be merchant ships carrying only slaves.

If you captured one of these ships you could then have the choice of

1: sell the slaves ( gain money : lower reputation)

2: keep the slaves to work on your plantation, if you have one ( increase plantation income + value : lower reputation)

3: free the slaves (no money : improved reputation), land them on a deserted beach somewhere.

Some slaves could even volunteer to join your crew after all as the wikipedia entry for Bart Roberts says when he was finally killed - "A total of 272 men had been captured by the Royal Navy. Of these, 75 were black, and these were sold into slavery."
---So freed slaves of some sort must have featured in pirate crews.
 
Chromide has actually been working on filling the Eleuthera plantation with some slave characters.
This is still very much unfinished and thus politically incorrect, since it's not yet possible to free them. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheeky" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />
Theoretically it would be possible to add slaves; I just think Pirate_KK doesn't much like that and he <i>is</i> our main coder... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mybad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":facepalm" border="0" alt="mybad.gif" />
 
Talisman, it's not the first time this subject has been brought up. We discussed this many times earlier.
It is not that we are trying to run away from historical facts - we all know, slaves were the foundation of the whole colonization idea.
But we just ended up agreeing how such a confrontation towards questionable ethics could be taken the wrong way by some players.
However, slaves are dealt with in some finished quests. But, as Pieter Boelen suggests, they are about freeing slaves.

You can, at the other hand, still hang officers (with every legitimate right and reason to be there and fight you) from the rig.
While this might seem a bit (hypocratic?, it is fully accepted. Afterall, this is a just game, not the Geneva convention <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />
 
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