Flying Dutchman... is flying no more.

[HellSailor]

What happens when you put a battle between the "Flying Dutchman", against a fully modified and improved Black Pearl with 32 Lbs Long Guns, loaded with Bombs, AND a 1st Ship-of-the-Line loaded with Bombs as well?

This happens.

And that's only with two ships. I didn't include my captured Barfleur Class 2nd Rate or my other 1st Ship-of-the-Line, because I thought it was going to be overkill.

Done in "Tales of a Sea Hawk" campaign. During the Sidequest "Elizabeth Shaw's Disappearance".

I think the Flying Dutchman here needs a buff, don't you think?

Look how they massacred my boy...

By the way, I'm still alive and visiting frequently the forums, after years of not giving any life signals. It's good to be back.

 

[Grey Roger]

Welcome back, @HellSailor!

I've managed to sink the Flying Dutchman too, and I didn't need any companion ships or special ammunition. What I did need was the Sovereign of the Seas - like you, I completed "Tales of a Sea Hawk" and then went looking for sidequests which I hadn't already done, including "Elizabeth Shaw's Disappearance". And what I also needed was a lot of ammunition because the Flying Dutchman has immense HP, which in fact may be its undoing. According to this...
Guide - Some notes on setting the ship's crew numbers
... a ship needs 1% of its HP in crew just to sail the ship. For the Flying Dutchman, with 100000 HP, that's 1000 crew. It's maximum crew is 420, plus or minus national modifiers and randomisation. Pirate ships get a 5% bonus to maximum crew, giving it 461, so even if it gets lucky on the randomisation it still has a severely undersized crew. What that means is that it doesn't fire its cannons as often as it should. A few broadsides from a 100 gun ship of the line will knock out several guns and a lot of the crew, after which the Flying Dutchman barely fires at all and is basically just target practice. By comparison, a normal 2nd rate ship of the line from a governor's ship-hunting quest was much more of a challenge because it was firing normally.

The obvious solution would be to increase the crew of the Flying Dutchman, except that this could cause problems for anyone playing as Davy Jones or Will Turner. Giving the ship the 1280 crew needed to operate at full efficiency would turn it into tier 1. You're penalised for commanding a ship beyond the ability of your Sailing and Leadership skills, which is fine if you're playing as Cutler Beckett. You get the tier 1 Endeavour as your starting ship, so you'll be heavily penalised, which is realistic as Beckett was completely incompetent in the battle scene in "At The World's End". But it's perhaps not so sensible to make you equally incompetent if you choose to FreePlay as Davy Jones...

 

[HellSailor]

@Grey Roger Thanks for the welcoming!

As you might see on the screenshot, that's not the Sovereign of the Seas, but rather a ship that I captured without much resistance from a random fleet. Same type, just a different skin model (my favourite of the batch, IMO). I could have done just with that ship, but because the Black Pearl is surprisingly fast in Arcade (You can get from a wind of 30 kts upwind a speed of 42 knots, fully modified, in ARCADE mode), I thought that was the best ship to travel from point X to point Y in a shorter period of travel.

... a ship needs 1% of its HP in crew just to sail the ship. For the Flying Dutchman, with 100000 HP, that's 1000 crew. It's maximum crew is 420, plus or minus national modifiers and randomisation. Pirate ships get a 5% bonus to maximum crew, giving it 461, so even if it gets lucky on the randomisation it still has a severely undersized crew. What that means is that it doesn't fire its cannons as often as it should. A few broadsides from a 100 gun ship of the line will knock out several guns and a lot of the crew, after which the Flying Dutchman barely fires at all and is basically just target practice. By comparison, a normal 2nd rate ship of the line from a governor's ship-hunting quest was much more of a challenge because it was firing normally.

I didn't notice that. Maybe that's why ships of lower tier (1s, 2s and 3s) reload so slow when you're using high caliber cannons and not a lot of crew. IIRC, at least on ARCADE, if you had the minimum amount of crew, your reload speed would be 100%, and when you start losing crew, your cannons' reload speed would proportionally increase, based how much crew you have left.

The obvious solution would be to increase the crew of the Flying Dutchman, except that this could cause problems for anyone playing as Davy Jones or Will Turner. Giving the ship the 1280 crew needed to operate at full efficiency would turn it into tier 1. You're penalised for commanding a ship beyond the ability of your Sailing and Leadership skills, which is fine if you're playing as Cutler Beckett. You get the tier 1 Endeavour as your starting ship, so you'll be heavily penalised, which is realistic as Beckett was completely incompetent in the battle scene in "At The World's End". But it's perhaps not so sensible to make you equally incompetent if you choose to FreePlay as Davy Jones...

I think there's just one better IMO... just put a GOD mode on the ship so it suffers no hull or crew damage, or lose its cannons.

When you're doing the main quest of "Tales of a Sea Hawk", you get the chance to "encounter" the cursed "Black Pearl" on Martinique, and in that instance, the ship has GOD mode ON. I remember that she became highly aggresive and chasy to me after I accidentally changed my flag. The thing is, the Flying Dutchman SHOULD be a real menace on the seas, so you should never, by any means, have a chance to defeat her. In the wiki page for that sidequest, it says that "you should sail away from it because it's too dangerous to fight her". Unless you have a pretty powerful ship to defeat her (which is easy as you get the Sovereign of the Seas), you should have no other chance to fight and win against her.

 

[Grey Roger]

@Grey RogerAs you might see on the screenshot, that's not the Sovereign of the Seas, but rather a ship that I captured without much resistance from a random fleet. Same type, just a different skin model (my favourite of the batch, IMO). I could have done just with that ship, but because the Black Pearl is surprisingly fast in Arcade (You can get from a wind of 30 kts upwind a speed of 42 knots, fully modified, in ARCADE mode), I thought that was the best ship to travel from point X to point Y in a shorter period of travel.

If you're playing "Arcade" mode, consider the Flying Dutchman as a boss enemy in an arcade game - tough but not unbeatable.

I didn't notice that. Maybe that's why ships of lower tier (1s, 2s and 3s) reload so slow when you're using high caliber cannons and not a lot of crew. IIRC, at least on ARCADE, if you had the minimum amount of crew, your reload speed would be 100%, and when you start losing crew, your cannons' reload speed would proportionally increase, based how much crew you have left.

That plus the fact that heavier guns do take longer to reload anyway. Even with a full crew, a tier 1 with 32lb guns will take longer to reload than a tier 4 with 12lb guns.

I think there's just one better IMO... just put a GOD mode on the ship so it suffers no hull or crew damage, or lose its cannons.

When you're doing the main quest of "Tales of a Sea Hawk", you get the chance to "encounter" the cursed "Black Pearl" on Martinique, and in that instance, the ship has GOD mode ON. I remember that she became highly aggresive and chasy to me after I accidentally changed my flag. The thing is, the Flying Dutchman SHOULD be a real menace on the seas, so you should never, by any means, have a chance to defeat her. In the wiki page for that sidequest, it says that "you should sail away from it because it's too dangerous to fight her". Unless you have a pretty powerful ship to defeat her (which is easy as you get the Sovereign of the Seas), you should have no other chance to fight and win against her.

I disagree - if you have a big enough warship, enough ammunition and enough patience, you should be able to sink the Flying Dutchman. If not, the best you can hope for is to force Davy Jones to run away. Otherwise you can't complete the quest because the Flying Dutchman sails faster upwind than downwind, which means you can't escape even if you're in a schooner trying to use the ship's normal advantage of being faster across the wind.

As for that wiki entry, I saw that, and regarded it as a challenge. The first time I played the quest after reading it, I was still commanding the Black Pearl during the battle, though I'd kept the Sovereign of the Seas as a companion and would switch to it whenever I wanted to attack a fort. Rising to the challenge, I fought the Flying Dutchman anyway, and declared a moral victory after it ran away from me - if one side flees a battlefield, the side which stayed there isn't generally regarded as the loser. Then I wondered whether I could finish the battle properly if I had the 100 gun ship for myself, so I reloaded an earlier savegame, swapped ship, and tried again.

The Black Pearl has to be immortal at Martinique because if you sink it there, it ruins the story - you're supposed to sink or capture it at Cozumel. The Flying Dutchman has no such second battle so it needs no such protection for plot reasons.

Incidentally, if you like this quest, make sure you get the latest update. You'll need to start a new game for the relevant part to take effect. Davy Jones' crew, or at least some of them, will never look the same again...

 

[Grey Roger]

I tried giving the Flying Dutchman enough crew for its HP and guns, and also giving a load of perks to Davy Jones. The only effect was that he got a couple of decent broadsides off at me. After I'd fired back a few times, his crew was decimated as usual. Oh well, worth a try.

In any case, the battle with the Flying Dutchman is the least of your worries if you're concerned about authenticity. Whether you sink the Dutchman or manage to outrun it, you go ashore, talk to the governor, and then have to fight two large groups of Davy Jones' crew. They should probably also be invincible due to being cursed. In fact you can hack your way through them easily. Making them immortal, or even just a lot tougher, would make that battle unwinnable.

 

[HellSailor]

I tried giving the Flying Dutchman enough crew for its HP and guns, and also giving a load of perks to Davy Jones. The only effect was that he got a couple of decent broadsides off at me. After I'd fired back a few times, his crew was decimated as usual. Oh well, worth a try.

In any case, the battle with the Flying Dutchman is the least of your worries if you're concerned about authenticity. Whether you sink the Dutchman or manage to outrun it, you go ashore, talk to the governor, and then have to fight two large groups of Davy Jones' crew. They should probably also be invincible due to being cursed. In fact you can hack your way through them easily. Making them immortal, or even just a lot tougher, would make that battle unwinnable.

I saw your point, and I can understand it; it makes good sense. After all, as much as you can try to buff it, if the Flying Dutchman is of an inferior tier than the Sovereign of the Seas, for example, in a one vs one, the ship will lose a lot of crew, cannons, and also, more importantly, Morale. I think Morale is also a big factor to take into account when fighting other ships.

The higher the morale at the start of the battle, the more initial damage you can take, and the more damage you can deal to the enemy ship. The moral starts to decrease the longer the battle lasts, specially if you fire grapes to the ship and decimate its crew. Also the damage you cause is a lot higher if you shoot very close to it. And when the morale drops significantly, the ship tries to sail away. If the chase or battle continues long enough, the ship will surrender to you (The Flying Dutchman is an exception to the rule, though; since it cannot be boarded, it cannont surrender to you).

 

[Grey Roger]

I saw your point, and I can understand it; it makes good sense. After all, as much as you can try to buff it, if the Flying Dutchman is of an inferior tier than the Sovereign of the Seas, for example, in a one vs one, the ship will lose a lot of crew, cannons, and also, more importantly, Morale. I think Morale is also a big factor to take into account when fighting other ships.

The higher the morale at the start of the battle, the more initial damage you can take, and the more damage you can deal to the enemy ship. The moral starts to decrease the longer the battle lasts, specially if you fire grapes to the ship and decimate its crew. Also the damage you cause is a lot higher if you shoot very close to it. And when the morale drops significantly, the ship tries to sail away. If the chase or battle continues long enough, the ship will surrender to you (The Flying Dutchman is an exception to the rule, though; since it cannot be boarded, it cannont surrender to you).

Morale is indeed an important factor as it can affect firing rate. It does not affect the ship's ability to take damage; it does affect the HP of the crew during a boarding action, though that is irrelevant for the Flying Dutchman. Dropping the morale of the Flying Dutchman is important because if you're in a lesser ship, it may be your only way to get out of the battle. The Flying Dutchman sails faster against the wind than with it, which means even a schooner trying to escape by sailing across the wind won't get away.

Boarding and surrendering are not linked, they're two separate attributes which are both disabled for the Flying Dutchman.

The basic point still stands, though - being able to sink the Flying Dutchman is no less realistic than being able to slaughter the crew outside the town hall, and the latter doesn't require you to have 100 cannons, lots of ammunition and lots of patience.

 

[Lonious]

Welcome back, @HellSailor!

I've managed to sink the Flying Dutchman too, and I didn't need any companion ships or special ammunition. What I did need was the Sovereign of the Seas - like you, I completed "Tales of a Sea Hawk" and then went looking for sidequests which I hadn't already done, including "Elizabeth Shaw's Disappearance". And what I also needed was a lot of ammunition because the Flying Dutchman has immense HP, which in fact may be its undoing. According to this...
Guide - Some notes on setting the ship's crew numbers
... a ship needs 1% of its HP in crew just to sail the ship. For the Flying Dutchman, with 100000 HP, that's 1000 crew. It's maximum crew is 420, plus or minus national modifiers and randomisation. Pirate ships get a 5% bonus to maximum crew, giving it 461, so even if it gets lucky on the randomisation it still has a severely undersized crew. What that means is that it doesn't fire its cannons as often as it should. A few broadsides from a 100 gun ship of the line will knock out several guns and a lot of the crew, after which the Flying Dutchman barely fires at all and is basically just target practice. By comparison, a normal 2nd rate ship of the line from a governor's ship-hunting quest was much more of a challenge because it was firing normally.

The obvious solution would be to increase the crew of the Flying Dutchman, except that this could cause problems for anyone playing as Davy Jones or Will Turner. Giving the ship the 1280 crew needed to operate at full efficiency would turn it into tier 1. You're penalised for commanding a ship beyond the ability of your Sailing and Leadership skills, which is fine if you're playing as Cutler Beckett. You get the tier 1 Endeavour as your starting ship, so you'll be heavily penalised, which is realistic as Beckett was completely incompetent in the battle scene in "At The World's End". But it's perhaps not so sensible to make you equally incompetent if you choose to FreePlay as Davy Jones...

Didn't the stock game Black Pearl fire quick as hell? I don't think it had anywhere near 1000 crew...

 

[HellSailor]

I was thinking @Grey Roger , maybe we could buff Davy Jones' stats, abilities and level? IIRC, fighting against Simon Blunden's ship (the one from the quest from the French Governor on Martinique) was really difficult, even for a ship of a higher tier. And in some occasions, I had the luck of making him a prisoner. And when I checked his stats... I was impressed. He had like level 46 and I was at level 30 or so, with most of his skills being at level 10 (such as Leadership, Accuracy, Cannons, Defence, etc.) I think with those changes, Davy Jones could prove to be more challenging.

 

[Grey Roger]

Already ahead of you. The leveling system seems to wipe any perks assigned by the character definition so I'm giving Davy Jones a whole load of them in the quest code. But the leveling system does not mess with a character's skills provided that the character is protected by the "questchar" attribute, which Davy Jones is, and he already has 10 in all skills.

Watch for the first update for the new Build 14 installer...