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False Lighting of New Models

S

sbremer

Landlubber
Storm Modder
Hello there.

I love the build mod and like all the new features and models, ships, locations included.

But there is a sewere issue with these models, as they appear to be too bright or too dark in parts.
I search the forum for that topic, and it is mentioned a few times, but no one stated what the
real problem is.

It's not lghtmaps or col files or whatever, it is a problem with the normal vectors.

The lighting only can be calculated with so called normals vectors, and the ones in the models
the build mod adds are screwed.

You need to recalculate the normals after you changed the 3d model, to make sure, the lighting
is calculated correctly.

For Example, take the boat.gm this is what it looks like with your screwed up normals (without any texture):
<img src="http://sbremer.kilu.de/pictures/boat_old.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

And that is what it is supposed to look like, after i recalculated the normals:
<img src="http://sbremer.kilu.de/pictures/boat_new.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

This is the false lighted boat with texture:
<img src="http://sbremer.kilu.de/pictures/boat_t_old.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

And here, thats what it would look like, when the normals are recalculated:
<img src="http://sbremer.kilu.de/pictures/boat_t_new.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />


The same goes for houses and sailors on the deck, or e.g. the lugger vml.
I would appreciate, seeing the models correctly.

Maybee i can help you with that?

greetings, sbremer
 
Welcome to the forum. If you can fix that lighting issue, that'd be MOST welcome. It's bothered us for quite a while, but we don't know how to fix it. It's what we call the "reversed lighting issue": when the light source (sun/moon) is on one side of the ship, the ship appears to be lighted from the other side. Looks really weird.

How can it apply to sailors on deck? Those are the same models as the one in the original game. And what houses do you refer to? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />
 
Yeah, thats exactly what can happen.

When the normal points inside the model, it looks like it is dark on the outside and bright within the model.
Or it looks like the sun/moon comes from the exactly opposite direction.

In my Installation all the Sailors on deck are too bright, i will try to find the reason for that. Maybee it only
is on deck of the lugger vml, have to check that.

The houses i talk about are not in the plain version of the game, most of them are in the new parts
of the enlarged towns. And there are alot of other added meshes which appear too bright in the game.

Edit: Oh, and there is a scaffold in front of a church, too bright, too.

Seems to me, almost every added mesh has that problem, at least when it was transformed alot
(e.g. points moved, rescaled, etc.)

greetings, sbremer
 
Ah; those are the BuildingSet models, yes. Those indeed also have that problem. So you know how to fix that then? Is it something you have to do in, say, 3D Studio MAX prior to converting the model back into the game? If so, these issues might easily be fixed. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/w00t.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":woot" border="0" alt="w00t.gif" />
 
Yes, thats right:

Before converting it back you should recalc the normals with Maya or 3D Max, or whatever other 3D Programm is used.
Cant say you where to find the exact menu entry or tools button for that, i have no 3d Programm installed at this time.

But it is there, it is a common thing to do with 3d data.

greetings, sbremer
 
Can anyone try and do what sbremer suggests? I can't do it either; I have no 3D program installed myself either. Does anyone have 3DS MAX?

How did you make those screenshots if you don't have a 3D program installed? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />
 
I took the screenshots with my own 3d tool i programmed for a nother game. It got an obj import plugin. So i just loaded
the exported obj files from the gm viewer.

Somewhere on the net, it is stated, that Maya always recalculates the vertex normals. So i rechecked the boat and find that
the polygon orientation is screewed up, thus resulting in false vertex normals.

A polygon got two sides, front and back, the front should point outwards, the back side inwards the model. the vertex normal
should do so too.

One needs to first flip all polygons, which are falsely orientated and then, may be Maya will produce correct normals when
exporting. Can't check that at the moment.

Edit:

Maya does not recalculate the vertex normals in version 5, but you can do that by yourself.

First import the mesh into maya, then set <b>shading </b>to <b>smooth shade all</b> and enable <b>backface culling</b>.

When the polygons are inside out, selct the mesh and click on <b>Edit Polygons -> Normals -> Reverse</b>

Then click on <b>Edit Polygons -> Normals -> Set to Face</b> and then <b>Edit Polygons -> Normals -> Soften/Harden</b>
with an angle around 90° .

And last, export it with the sd2geo plug-in.

I did not get that to work, someone knowing how to use it?



greetings, sbremer
 
Right now, nobody here ever managed to export properly from Maya. Kazeite, who made most of the new ship models (Black Pearl and Interceptor), used 3DS MAX in combination with Inez Dias' Tool (available from the modding tools page of my website).
 
I will check that, and report!

What version of 3DS Max? I got Inez Dias tool and i am just trying to get that boat in again.

greetings, sbremer
 
Not sure what version, really. Version 6 or 7, I think. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />
 
Thanks very much. I also used version 6 when I tried to fix the lighting on Merciless Mark's improved HMS Surprise. I didn't manage though. But then I didn't know such a "reverse normals vectors" option existed.
 
SBremer, <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/par-ty.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheers" border="0" alt="par-ty.gif" />

I'm going to be following this thread to see what you find out about this. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/keith.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":keith" border="0" alt="keith.gif" /> I noticed with some of the models that I've been playing around with lately, that the resulting model after import into TOOL will have the lighting messed up. (One model's face lights up in the shade and goes dark in direct sunlight. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":shrug" border="0" alt="dunno.gif" /> )

I'm using Blender to edit the models, rather than Max or Maya, but I may poke around to see if there's a feature that can accomplish what you've indicated in earlier posts.

Good luck on figuring this out! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/par-ty.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheers" border="0" alt="par-ty.gif" />
 
Will try to test this, 'cause a faulty import with TOOL would be bad news.
Did that happend only to .wrl files or .x files, too?

Haven't had the time to test the lighting fixing procedure with 3DS Max, yet. But i fiddled a little with
Maya to find that quite useless. With a not working export plug-in, a older vrml export, not fully compatible
with TOOLs wrl import routine and no vrml import, we really can't use it to fix the problem.

Further more, the <b>Normals -> Set to Face</b> produces a lot a vertices/points, wich you should reduce with <b>Normals -> Average</b>
rather than using <b>Normals -> Soften/Harden</b>.

Thats quite to complicate, it's a small and easy problem, there should be a short and simple solution.

I will have a look to Blender, too.

greetings, sbremer
 
I think I tried the X-route as well, but I don't think that imported or exported properly. Only WRL would work "right". <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad.gif" />
 
I see.

I, for myself, got a few smaller problems with TOOL. as it often ignores the texture name in the .wrl file and
changes that to MissingTexture.tga.
Do not know what the problem is, but its really anoying.

greetings, sbremer
 
So THAT's where those recent <i>Can't find texture RESOURCE\Textures\Ships\MissingTexture.tga</i> error messages come from. I had been wondering about those. There's some recently added models that have that as well. Do the textures still load or are they completely ignored? Is there anything special about the name of the texture? Spaces, capitals, special signs, etc?
 
I have not tested one of these gm files in the game, but in TOOL and GM viewer the objekt appears
with just one colour. (At least when all textures are changed to MissingTexture.tga)
Sometimes, although the texure path is set correctly, TOOL does not find or recognize the texture,
and then you're stuck with it. I don't know why.

It seems to be possible with Blender to recaclcualte the normals, but that program really confuses me.
And i found no way to actually see, the errors. Did not find a way to switch back face culling on, and Blender
seems to calculate the normals automatically, depending on smoothing groups, to which you can assign
meshes or parts of it.

I reaaly don't know how to use that. (the program, not the smoothing groups) Need to read something about that first.

When i find 3DS Max as disappointing as Maya, and Blender refuses to do things the way they are supposed to work,
i might even program vrml import and export plug-ins for my 3D Tool and correct these normals that way.
(You click on Recalculate and it recalculates <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> , i like it the easy way.)

greetings, sbremer
 
Hi,
No...your not on your own with that problem of 'missing texture.tga'. Thats the only thing thats been stopping me
getting a model back into the game from Maya (Character models).

[attachment=1813:gm_before_export.jpg]
[attachment=1814:gm_after...ith_TOOL.jpg]

Is this the sort of result you've been getting sbremer ?

damski.
 
Exactly the same i am getting, that really annoys me.
Of course, you can't put such a messed up mesh back into the game again.
But as you can't change the string, you need to try again, and again...

Any Idea?

greetings, sbremer
 
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