Extreme difficult missions

[Pieter Boelen]

If you can only win by using tricks (for example exploiting the weak AI) instead of, well, playing skillfully, because the enemy is purposely overpowered and impossible to beat in a straight-out fight, then this isn't good design.

Depends on your definition of "good design". Personally, I would definitely agree with you.

 

[SD:TEHO]

@GAZ Vodnik

I didn´t say that you ONLY can win by using tricks. I said that this game can be hardcore but must not. That means that you can win it by playing hardcore but you can also use tricks to make it easier for you. That depends on the way one prefers and i think that this possibility speaks for the game.

 

[Dat Scharger]

As I haven't played the game, I'll just construct a specific scenario to hopefully explain what good design means to me:

Imagine a small village with lots of enemies. Your goal is to escape to the other side.

You can try to attack them, but due to their sheer numbers, you will get overwhelmed quickly unless you are way overleveled and/or spam potions.
So instead you decide to watch the enemies a bit, their paths and soon discover spots where you can slip through undetected with clever use of cover. Mess up and you will get slaughtered.
In short: The game offers you reasonable options to handle a situation within it's own mechanics without expecting you to exploit its weaknesses.

Now an example for bad design:
Imagine the same small village with lots of enemies, but without the cover to sneak past them. So the game apparently wants you to fight them all at once or try to run. Both will certainly get you killed unless you leveled up like crazy before (Let's say this is one of the earlier quests), so what are you going to do now?
After some Trial & Error (Which is nearly always a bad thing), you discover a flaw in the enemies' programming, namely their limited "aggro"-ranges. So you pull them out one by one, until there are only a few guards left so you can just run.
In short: You only win because the AI is badly programmed and/or plain stupid - and the game wanted you to abuse it.


@SD:TEHO

Not really, I think.

If a game's intended way of playing (I'm assuming now that exploiting the AI isn't) is so (deliberately?) infuriating, that abusing the weaknesses in the script/AI/Whatever is the only way to have fun, then something is very wrong.

 

[SD:TEHO]

I don´t see my tricks as abusing the weaknesses in the script or AI, as i don´t even know if there is existing any weakness. For me it´s more like trying out different tactics which i really enjoy. I mean if the devs don´t want you using mines, then why did they give the possiblity to players? In CoAS you can´t do such things, there you only can play the hard way. I also played that game a 100 times for many years and personally found it much harder than TEHO.

 

[LarryHookins]

A lot of games are designed such that you have to use some special procedure to win. You can win without it, but it's a lot harder. There's usually one easy way in every case. TEHO has a few of these.

This is nothing like the Long War mod for XC0m: Enemy Within. That one can be soul-crushingly difficult even with every possible option set to the easiest level. It is *intended* that you will lose some battles, and even lose your entire squad. Sometimes you can recognize when this might happen and retreat. Other times not and you don't know until the end of the battle that it's going to be a loss. They compensate for this a bit by making the end game win conditions a little easier and by enabling countries that leave XCom to rejoin later. The game can be won, but it's not going to be easy, and as far as I know there are no special tactics that will allow you to win a battle; the only special tactic is to retreat and take a loss.

TEHO is a game where you have to reload previous saves a lot. One extreme example is one of the DLCs that has a long "shopping list" of items that you need and a very strict time limit. If you haven't been gathering all this stuff and keeping it the entire game, you won't have time to collect it during the quest. Some of it is available during the quest, and no one has posted (at least in English) where to find all the items you will need after the quest has started.

Hook

 

[qualkonn]

Also the musketeers are no problem if you prepare yourself with 2 bottles of Ometochli Tincture, about 30 bottles of big elixir, the horseman´s axe that you win during the fight in the hut and a naval carbine. First you should ignore the group and run away from the hut to the end of the path, there you only have to kill one musketeer fast and the others from there one by one. Take care that you stay out of Patterson´s reach till only he is left. Save your game and attack Patterson on the hill with 2 shots. Run back and hide till your heatlth is recovered and your gun reloaded. Attack again till he runs to the jungle. Save again and continue with the tactic till he is history

The toughest bossfight is at the end of the game against your brother and his followers. But it is also no problem if you prepare yourself with the Scorpion Talisman against poison, the Side-by-side Rifle musket, 10 bottles of Ometochli Tincture, about 50 bottles of big elixir and 10 bottles of Tears of Ixchel.

You're basically describing how I went through those quest

Only difference is I didn't have the Gryffondor as I refused to become a french admiral and the heartbreaking revelation that I didn't get the real Mayan mask from the island to stop Michelle (que sad violin music ) My nearest save is right before talking to the inquisitor to start the quest chain so I will probably take a break from the game before I start the quest again . I've been on the fence on buying Naval Action but from the recent reviews on steam it doesn't seem like a good game , which brings me to my first point , there really aren't any good alternatives to this game sadly .

What about AoP/SD:CoAS and PotC then?

It's all the same game to me if I'm honest only sea dogs to each his own is supported by the devs and you can expect new content where's the other games you've listed all rely on mods . And trust me I've played the pants off AoP:CoAS with the Gentlemen of fortune mod , actual I did all possible quest except for one , Austin quest maybe ? I'm not sure , where you get to a point where you have to board and search the cabins of 10 Man'o'war's in one fight to find some papers and then land on an island and do something else , idk , I never passed the 10 Man'o'war boarding . Also a side note when I was doing that quest I believe I had the Flying Dutchman as a flag ship , how great is that ? Anyway , I'll stop rambling . God speed gentleman

 

[Dat Scharger]

I only put my ship full of gunpowder (between 10.000 and 30.000 quantity, depending on the size of ship that i use) and sail away from the enemy. After some time they start to follow you like dogs and then you only have to place a minecarpet behind you and they explode one by one, except the cruising xebecs but they are easy to fight. If you want to keep the Fortune, you only have to board it first of all with the Griffondor (or any other equal ship that you can spare) full of gunpowder, then move the gunpowder to the Fortune, sink the Griffondor, escape from the others, put a minecarpet behind you and that´s it. Easy as pie

Also the musketeers are no problem if you prepare yourself with 2 bottles of Ometochli Tincture, about 30 bottles of big elixir, the horseman´s axe that you win during the fight in the hut and a naval carbine. First you should ignore the group and run away from the hut to the end of the path, there you only have to kill one musketeer fast and the others from there one by one. Take care that you stay out of Patterson´s reach till only he is left. Save your game and attack Patterson on the hill with 2 shots. Run back and hide till your heatlth is recovered and your gun reloaded. Attack again till he runs to the jungle. Save again and continue with the tactic till he is history

Sounds pretty much like abusing the AI (Assuming in the first case, that the enemy ships aren't programmed to avoid mines) for me.

And what exactly has the fact, that you can't deploy mines in CoaS, to do with this discussion?
I also would really like to know how much harder CoaS actually is according to your opinion, since I can't recall one quest where the game pits you against groups and groups of enemies while being alone and essentially forces you to spam potions (Except for that Pirate quest I mentioned in my first post in this thread, but you can solve that by just running away). And I personally found it to be very managable at all times.

A lot of games are designed such that you have to use some special procedure to win.

That is correct. And?
Please tell me one game where you have to exploit flaws in the programming to win, because the intended way is so hard, that one might think that the developers want the player to cheat.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

It's all the same game to me if I'm honest

They're indeed very, very close. All based on the Storm 2 engine.

only sea dogs to each his own is supported by the devs

True, of course.

you can expect new content where's the other games you've listed all rely on mods

Are mods such a bad thing?

And trust me I've played the pants off AoP:CoAS with the Gentlemen of fortune mod

Then you're still missing out on PotC:NH, which may just be the best of the bunch.
I reckon this comparison of all three games is a pretty fair one:
Need Help - Landlubber's guide to games and mods?

 

[qualkonn]

Mods are fine ... when they work . Gentleman of fortune was amazing , with an enormous politra of ships , but at least for me , crashing was an hourly occurrence . The main reason I stopped playing is due to the quest with the Man'o'war's , the game simply crashed every time I got close to the battle ,couldn't handle rendering so much ships , New Horizons looks great too but I'm a bit reluctant to play it seeing as it's basically the same as the game I'm currently playing . Due to this I'll probably break and against my better judgement buy Naval Action even though I am certain how that's going to end (like that gif of the little girl throwing money out the window)

 

[Pieter Boelen]

New Horizons looks great too but I'm a bit reluctant to play it seeing as it's basically the same as the game I'm currently playing .

Graphics are of course similar and slightly less good.
But based on what I hear about TEHO, the gameplay is quite different.
Of course PotC has been the most heavily modded of any of these games by a large margin.
It ended up as pretty much a complete reworking of everything.

We've got (mostly non-annoying!) storylines, but also massive free play potential.
You can pretty much play it whichever way you want to. Plus, it is still supported by us right here.
You might want to give it a try.

Due to this I'll probably break and against my better judgement buy Naval Action even though I am certain how that's going to end (like that gif of the little girl throwing money out the window)

I think @A.H might have some recommendation to make to you then...

 

[LarryHookins]

A lot of games are designed such that you have to use some special procedure to win.

That is correct. And?
Please tell me one game where you have to exploit flaws in the programming to win, because the intended way is so hard, that one might think that the developers want the player to cheat.

The special procedures are not cheats nor are they program flaws, either in TEHO or other games where they are used, and a lot of people like finding them.

New Horizons has the most mature content of any of the mods, and there is a lot of it. Over many years of development most of the not-quite-good mods have been removed. A lot of the COAS mods are shovelware; meaning they basically shoveled in everything they could find whether it improved the game or not. A lot of people like it this way, just like a lot of people like special procedures needed to win some quest. Some of the additions are pretty good though.

Keep in mind that there is usually a good market for any given feature in a game, even if you or I might not like it.

Hook

 

[A.H]

Well Naval Action is changing always.. sometimes for better sometimes for worse.. but my recommendation is if you have money to spare then buy it.. otherwise if you are frugal person then wait till full release maybe end of the year.

As with regards to HoO, you can look it at as New Horizons but with an upgraded graphics, additional open world freeplay content, and much more options to make it the GTA of colonial Caribbean in my opinion.

And one thing it is not going to be I assume, is an overpriced game... although the devs are talking about putting it for free, I strongly advice against that since there are hundreds, if not thousands and even tens of thousands of potential customers for such a game once it is released!

As long as you get greenlight from Steam, then it's big bucks from there!

 

[SD:TEHO]

And what exactly has the fact, that you can't deploy mines in CoaS, to do with this discussion?

I´m only comparing games like some others also do in this and other threads. Sometimes one thaught leads to another, nothing to worry about. If that doesn´t interest you, simply ignore it.

I also would really like to know how much harder CoaS actually is according to your opinion, since I can't recall one quest where the game pits you against groups and groups of enemies while being alone and essentially forces you to spam potions (Except for that Pirate quest I mentioned in my first post in this thread, but you can solve that by just running away). And I personally found it to be very managable at all times.

In some of the governor general quests you have to destroy squadrons which you can´t escape and because of my prefered way of always using only one selected good ship at the moment for every fight, it can get really hard somtimes. I principly never use fleets myself because i don´t like to command and depend on other ships. I prefer to manage everything alone.

...where you get to a point where you have to board and search the cabins of 10 Man'o'war's in one fight to find some papers and then land on an island and do something else , idk , I never passed the 10 Man'o'war boarding .

Also easy as pie if you only use one fast xebec with maximum crew and 3 boarding officers, board only one Man 'O' War for the moment, sink it, escape from the rest, repair your xebec in one near city of your choice, increase your crew again, return to the squadron and repeat everything till you find the random placed book in one of them. They won´t leave the place until you sink all of them because they brought troops of soldiers there to protect the excavation of the Inka Temple and wait for their return. This is also the reason why the ships are easy to board because their are not so many soldiers left on them.
After that you have to land at Amatique Cove and defeat the spanish troops outside and inside the Inka Temple, where you will find an important Artifact for much easier ship repair. Maybe you like to try that again some sunny day.

 

[qualkonn]

Well Naval Action is changing always.. sometimes for better sometimes for worse.. but my recommendation is if you have money to spare then buy it.. otherwise if you are frugal person then wait till full release maybe end of the year.

As with regards to HoO, you can look it at as New Horizons but with an upgraded graphics, additional open world freeplay content, and much more options to make it the GTA of colonial Caribbean in my opinion.

And one thing it is not going to be I assume, is an overpriced game... although the devs are talking about putting it for free, I strongly advice against that since there are hundreds, if not thousands and even tens of thousands of potential customers for such a game once it is released!

As long as you get greenlight from Steam, then it's big bucks from there!

I do have the riches to pay the bitches , the dolla dolla bills for the pills and chills , stacks for racks , the green-green for dat bling-bling ,there's no problem buying the game , but I've had experience with such "Early access' games , I'm afraid I'll be stuck in an endless grind for money or experience , and a time sink . but there must be a reason you think highly of it , I may try it just so I can put my curiosity to rest . I am also very much looking forward to HoO but that seems to be very far away from being complete , sadly

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I am also very much looking forward to HoO

Be sure to have a look at the latest news here:
Announcing New Horizons Remastered - Bringing our best work to Unity

 

[A.H]

With regards to TEHO, I am really pissed about the golden fleet... I waited months for it then when I attacked, it is impossible and I have a 5500 armor heavy frigate with good mods.
Not only that, but no matter where you tag it from, it always spawns you right next to the man o war, and one broadside and you're done.

In another tag, I tried to go as far back, but it spawns me behind the man o war and his back cannons destroyed me!


So definitely this game needs a lot of rework to bring it to the glory of its former AOP2 self...

 

[SD:TEHO]

The Golden Fleet is one of the toughest fights in TEHO. You could make it a bit easier for you if you play TEHO as a Beginner instead of Normal mode. Another possibility is to push the fleet to the fort of Beliz on it´s way from Portobello to Havana while you are on the world map. In sea mode you can concentrate much better on the Man`O´War then while the whole fleet has to deal with the fort. As far as i know The Golden Fleet starts from Portobello to Havana every year around the 27th of November. You could ask for rumors at that time (also lighthouse caretakers give that information) or you can start looking for yellow sails on the worldmap between Portobello and Belize at that time, if you want the help of a fort. Personally i also like to use the help of forts for other quests in TEHO as i always only play with one selected good ship at the moment and never use fleets. In this case i would recommend a Heavy Fregate (as you used already) or the Ghostship Flying Heart. You can of course also wait for a rework when the devs start to allow mods.

 

[A.H]

Yes for now it's impossible for me to do with heavy frigate.

And I am now in the Shark hunt quest, and everytime I spawn in Justice island from Kukucliacan stone, I keep dying.
My health is Good, and I have separate save files in which I paid 300k so far to priests to improve health, and I'm spending nearly 3 months in tavern.. but still health is not excellent and I keep dying as soon as I land in Justice island.

So situation is pretty rough for me right now

 

[SD:TEHO]

Before you teleported to Justice Island, you must have been to the shaman Snake Eye to give him 3 random Amulets and he gave you 3 bottles of Comanche Potion which you must keep all quest long. As soon as you spawn in Justice Island, you must open your inventory and drink one of them because only that potion can save you from death. The other two you must keep for your way back later on. After you got healed, you must fight the giant crab in front of you as fast as possible and take care that you have at least one bottle of antidote with you because the crab can poison you during the fight. After you survived, DON´T walk straight ahead through the door, use the way to your right and swim straight ahead to the ship Ceres Smithy or you will be taken captive and miss to meet Red Mary (one of the best boarding officers given by the game). Once you reach her you have to protect her from two killers but that is easy. After that you have to stay over night in the tavern on the ship Fleuron and meet Admiral Steven Dodson the next morning in the ship San Augustine. He will tell you what to do next. To meet Nathaniel Hawk you must swim to the ship Fernanda which is seperated from all the other ships. To be able to open all chests on Justice Island you must have 11 big pearls with you that you have to give to Ole Christensen (talk to him twice or you will miss one important lock pick!) whom you can find at the storekeeper in the ship Esmeralda. You can use the chest in the bedroom of the tavern to store all things that you rob. Don´t sell everything to the storekeeper because his money is limited from day to day and you have to take care of your one year time limit. You can always return to Justice Isand later on and fetch up all things that you have stored in your chest. Justice Island is very very tricky. Be shure to always talk with everybody that you meet (to someones again after some days). If you are stuck in any way just ask me, i know everything about it. Good luck!

 

[A.H]

Yes problem is not the mission, but the teleportation to Justice island... when I use the Kukuliacan statue, as soon as I land in Justice Island I die right away... so no chance to take potion