Brigantine Castell Friedrichsburg 1688, upgraded to 16 guns

[Grey Roger]

The changes to speed and turnrate may be alright, but why change "RigType" from "Btn" (brigantine) to "Lug" (lugger)?

Perhaps bump up its arcade mode performance a bit as well?

 

[Hylie Pistof]

That is because even with the speed and turn rate buffs the Polacca still outsailed the CastelF because it can sail into the wind far better. My goal is to get the CastelF to be faster than the Polacca. The alternative is to slow down the Polacca by giving it the "Btn" rigging too.

Err, Arcade? That never occurred to me.

 

[Grey Roger]

The polacca should indeed be able to sail into the wind better than the Castell Friedrichsburg because it has a higher proportion of fore/aft sails. Perhaps set it to "Xeb", which you'd think would be for xebecs but which is actually used for the caravel and the jackass barque. In any case, the polacca does have square sails as well as lateens, though not so much of an area as the Castell Friedrichsburg, so it should not have the "Lug" rig type either.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

Ok, will experiment more.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

After setting the rig type for the Polacca to "Xeb" and the CastelF to "Btn" and then adjusting the CastelF so its speed is about 1 knot slower than the Neptunus I have, which makes it about 3 knots faster than the Polacca, the Polacca still sails off over the horizon because it sails into the wind so much better than the other 2 ships.

I had hoped to get the CastelF sailing like the polacca bit a bit faster, but it is not to be. Here is the shipsinit.c with this setup.

 

[Grey Roger]

The polacca probably should outclass the Castell Friedrichsburg when sailing into the wind as it has a higher proportion of fore/aft sails. The Castell Friedrichsburg could reasonably expect to be faster with a following wind, though.

The new speed of 11.9 would make it faster than the original brigantine with 11.0. That can't be right; the Castell Friedrichsburg is a larger ship, dual purpose with a large cargo hold, while "brigantina1" is a smaller, lighter, pure combat ship.

What happens if you put the Castell Friedrichsburg's speed back to 10.9 and then compare it to the polacca when they're sailing with the wind behind them? Or possibly "brigantina1" needs a speed increase as well; "brig1" has a base speed of 13.0 by comparison.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

The new speed of 11.9 would make it faster than the original brigantine with 11.0. That can't be right; the Castell Friedrichsburg is a larger ship, dual purpose with a large cargo hold, while "brigantina1" is a smaller, lighter, pure combat ship.

Higher speeds for bigger ships isn't actually that crazy. You might want to have a look at this recent discussion, if you hadn't already seen it:
Discussion - Manoeuvrability and Speed of Historical Ships

 

[Grey Roger]

I did see that - apparently large ships could go as fast as small ones, but took longer to reach that speed.

During my sailing trip aboard Atlantis last year, when we first encountered the Thalassa at Port Ellen, some of the passengers suggested a race. The captain declined, saying that the smaller, lighter Thalassa would always win such a race.

And that's two ships with roughly similar rig. "Brigantina", though available in almost all periods, has a more modern style rig than the Castell Friedrichsburg.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I did see that - apparently large ships could go as fast as small ones, but took longer to reach that speed.

Almost true. The theoretical top speed of a long (=large) ship is HIGHER than the top speed of a small ship.
So a Ship of the Line might end up overtaking a Lugger, given the right conditions.

During my sailing trip aboard Atlantis last year, when we first encountered the Thalassa at Port Ellen, some of the passengers suggested a race. The captain declined, saying that the smaller, lighter Thalassa would always win such a race.

I also heard some stories about the Atlantis earlier this year. Apparently she's a fishing boat with masts and sails put on top. (This is not uncommon.)
If I remember correctly, they almost always have to run the engine in addition to having the sails up because otherwise they couldn't keep their schedule.
(I ended up talking to one of her officers... )

And that's two ships with roughly similar rig. "Brigantina", though available in almost all periods, has a more modern style rig than the Castell Friedrichsburg.

Shape of the hull makes a difference too. A hull designed for sailing would be different than a hull designed for motoring.
For first-hand details, see here:

Spoiler

A good friend of mine has a Dehler 28:

I've got a Hallberg Rassy 29:

Both similar lengths and similar rig, but the manoeuvring characteristics are completely different.
We haven't done a race yet, but my friend is CONVINCED he'll beat me easily despite my 1 foot extra length.
He's an expert sailor, so I don't doubt him for a second.

The shape of the underwater hull are very different between both boats:

v.s.:

His boat has much better manoeuvrability and less resistance in relatively calm conditions. But on engine, you continuously need to hold onto the rudder because if you don't, she'll go all over the place.
My boat on the other hand is far heavier (3.8 tons v.s. 2.5 tons), which makes her more bulky, slower to get up to speed, but also far more stable and able to deal with much higher winds and waves.
Plus, the different shape of the hull and type of rudder means that my boat will keep going (almost) straight even if you let go of the rudder for minutes.

In other words, the behaviour between both similar-sized and similar-rigged boats is very, very different. They both have their own pros and cons.
It is really difficult to judge these sort of differences without a lot of expertise on the subject (which I never had, but am beginning to build up now).
This is how the company I work for (www.marin.nl) makes its money.

 

[Grey Roger]

I also heard some stories about the Atlantis earlier this year. Apparently she's a fishing boat with masts and sails put on top. (This is not uncommon.)

No, she was originally a lightship.
Atlantis - Tallship Company

If I remember correctly, they almost always have to run the engine in addition to having the sails up because otherwise they couldn't keep their schedule.

More correctly, they usually have to run the engine without the sails, unless the wind happens to be favourable. We were lucky a few times. The first time we got to put the sails up, I asked how much of our speed was due to sails and how much to the engine, and was told that it was 100% sail, the engine wasn't running. But most of the time we were under engine power and all sails were furled. If the wind isn't helping then having the sails up creates more drag and slows down the ship.

Shape of the hull makes a difference too. A hull designed for sailing would be different than a hull designed for motoring.

We can reasonably assume that neither Castell Friedrichsburg nor Brigantina are designed for motoring. Conversely, both Atlantis and Thalassa probably were designed for motoring, partly because that's how they travel most of the time, and partly because the original hull wasn't designed with sailing in mind.

But it's certainly true that hull design evolved over time - and Brigantina is a more modern design than Castell Friedrichsburg.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

No, she was originally a lightship.
Atlantis - Tallship Company

Ah, right! I indeed wasn't entirely sure; some were lightships; some were fishing boats; and even some were fishing boats turned light ships turned tall ship!

More correctly, they usually have to run the engine without the sails, unless the wind happens to be favourable. We were lucky a few times. The first time we got to put the sails up, I asked how much of our speed was due to sails and how much to the engine, and was told that it was 100% sail, the engine wasn't running. But most of the time we were under engine power and all sails were furled. If the wind isn't helping then having the sails up creates more drag and slows down the ship.

Very true. And good question of yours too! I'm glad to hear she actually CAN do 100% sail power at times. That's always cool.

We can reasonably assume that neither Castell Friedrichsburg nor Brigantina are designed for motoring. Conversely, both Atlantis and Thalassa probably were designed for motoring, partly because that's how they travel most of the time, and partly because the original hull wasn't designed with sailing in mind.

All true again.

 

[Homo eructus]

Ah, right! I indeed wasn't entirely sure; some were lightships; some were fishing boats; and even some were fishing boats turned light ships turned tall ship!

Thalassa was indded a fishing ship before being converted, if I recall correctly. When I sailed aboard her back in 2005 we set out from Torbay under sail (it was technically a regatta after all, so turning the engine on meant an immediate disqualification), and even briefly overtook a couple of other ships like Shabab Oman, but it didn't last once we were futher out. A couple days later the storm broke out (the same storm that dismasted Pride of Baltimore, though we didn't know that at the time) and the captain decided to turn the engine on and seek shelter in Brest. After the storm passed, wind died down so we spent the last couple of days before arrival in Santander with just the engine, which was kind of an anticlimactic ending.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Thalassa was indded a fishing ship before being converted, if I recall correctly. When I sailed aboard her back in 2005 we set out from Torbay under sail (it was technically a regatta after all, so turning the engine on meant an immediate disqualification), and even briefly overtook a couple of other ships like Shabab Oman, but it didn't last once we were futher out. A couple days later the storm broke out (the same storm that dismasted Pride of Baltimore, though we didn't know that at the time) and the captain decided to turn the engine on and seek shelter in Brest. After the storm passed, wind died down so we spent the last couple of days before arrival in Santander with just the engine, which was kind of an anticlimactic ending.

That sounds like one helluva awesome adventure all the same!
I really like hearing these kind of stories. It helps a lot with my own understanding of how this whole "tall ships business" works.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

The polacca probably should outclass the Castell Friedrichsburg when sailing into the wind as it has a higher proportion of fore/aft sails. The Castell Friedrichsburg could reasonably expect to be faster with a following wind, though.

The new speed of 11.9 would make it faster than the original brigantine with 11.0. That can't be right; the Castell Friedrichsburg is a larger ship, dual purpose with a large cargo hold, while "brigantina1" is a smaller, lighter, pure combat ship.

What happens if you put the Castell Friedrichsburg's speed back to 10.9 and then compare it to the polacca when they're sailing with the wind behind them? Or possibly "brigantina1" needs a speed increase as well; "brig1" has a base speed of 13.0 by comparison.

The CastelF is indeed faster with the wind than the Polacca, but the Polacca is much faster with any other kind of wind and will easily sail over the horizon in normal game play. That is what I'm attempting to fix. I want them to be closer in performance because their size and hull shape underwater are similar. The largest differences are the rigging and that the CastelF carries its weight higher due to the larger cannons. If anything, the Polacca probably needs to be detuned somehow.

Those original brigs are pure racing hulls. Open GMViewer and flip the ship over so you are looking at the keel. Note the pointed bow, short forward mounted wide section, and the long taper back to the rudder. Then look at the keel of the CastelF. Note the blunt bow, the long wide section, and the short taper back to the rudder.
The brigs are fantasy ships. If one was built, when loaded to specs it would sink at the dock as they simply do not have the displacement to support all that weight. But they should be very fast!

So I will slow down the CastelF a bit and continue looking for a way to slow down the Polacca.

 

[Bava]

The polacre should be faster than the Castel imo, especially close-hauled. Beam reach, a draw, maybe a small advantage for the polacre.

The brigs are fantasy ships. If one was built, when loaded to specs it would sink at the dock as they simply do not have the displacement to support all that weight.

Hehe, the brigs...yup, they´re fantasy. But some ships had very sharp lines and sailed quite well. Here are two waterline drawings of french ships:





The lower one is especially interesting, few hollow lines, very sharp entry and a fine run. I´ll let you guys guess the 'age' and type of ship
A small hint, one is older than the CF, one is younger ^^

 

[Hylie Pistof]

Hmm. I lean towards giving the CastelF more speed because some ships got their top speed by raising the main sail and letting the fore mast carry the ship. The CastelF has a square sail fore mast.

Yes the Polacca should be faster into the wind than the CastelF but not as fast as it is. It is looking like I will have to create a new rig type for the Polacca as the existing ones make it either too fast or too slow. A "Btn" with better closest point might work.

More testing required!

 

[Grey Roger]

Those original brigs are pure racing hulls. Open GMViewer and flip the ship over so you are looking at the keel. Note the pointed bow, short forward mounted wide section, and the long taper back to the rudder. Then look at the keel of the CastelF. Note the blunt bow, the long wide section, and the short taper back to the rudder.
The brigs are fantasy ships. If one was built, when loaded to specs it would sink at the dock as they simply do not have the displacement to support all that weight. But they should be very fast!

GMViewer doesn't tell the whole story. In GMViewer, some of the dark brown part of the hull is above the reference plane, but it's almost entirely underwater in the game. Not so with the CastelF; what you see in GMViewer is what you get in the game.


But the CastelF certainly does need some improvement in performance. By exactly the same arguments as above, it ought to be faster and more manoeuvrable than the Heavy East Indiaman, which at present it is not - speed 9.9, turn 60 (CastelF) vs. speed 9.5, turn 60 (Wargalleon). Bumping it up to speed 10.9, turn 70 should give it the edge over the Heavy East Indiaman while still keeping it a bit slower than the Brigantina.

You can also try playing around with the "refship.ClosestPoint" and "refShip.BestPoint" attributes. The defaults for these, set in "ships.h" and used if nothing is specified for a type in "Ships_init.c", are 0.3 and 0.8. The Brigantina has 0.25 and 0.7. So I'm trying out 0.275 and 0.75 for the CastelF, midway between default and Brigantina.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

GMViewer doesn't tell the whole story. In GMViewer, some of the dark brown part of the hull is above the reference plane, but it's almost entirely underwater in the game. Not so with the CastelF; what you see in GMViewer is what you get in the game.

Depends on the waterline, immersion and ship weight value ships_init.c values.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

By some coincidence I currently have the CastelF set to "Btn" rig and 10.9 best speed and 70 turn rate.

I also created a new rig "Pol" with a closest point of .22 and a best point of .7. This combined with a speed of 10.1 and a turn rate of 75 makes the Polacca faster than the CastelF everywhere except with the wind, but they are fairly close.

I might detune the Polacca some more after further testing.

 

[Grey Roger]

The other change I made in my version, though I won't see any result of it, was to increase the speed of the CastelF in Arcade mode from 12.8 to 13.8.