@Captain Armstrong:
Yesterday I read through some book sheets and think about an real life weight for the 8ft 12 pdr.
Based on Victorys wreck we know, that a real life 12 pounder 10ft have had a weight of 33-1-12, means 3736,00 lbs - 1694,62 Kg, 33,3571 cwt. The gun was cast in 1734.
The Establishment of 1716 give us a 12 pounder 9ft 6in as 31cwt, what is in my opinion realistic because the too short reinforce was mainly a problem above 12 pounder guns.
The Establishment of 1743 bring back 1st rates Bronze guns and lists a few in service. Unfortunately with no weight. Caruana said, that Victory and Royal Sovereign in dock fit with its gun into the Establishment regulation from 1719 till 1749. This fact confirms, that a 12 pounder 9ft6in was 31cwt.
Now we got the problem, every 6in less in gun length means ~1cwt lighter (at Bronze guns) and more and more too short reinforced. I am not sure if ever a 12 pdr 8ft gun have had then 29 cwt and if we csan call this "realistic".
To check what is realistic, I have checked the differences between iron and Bronze guns. Caruana said, that the most Establishments for old ships was migrated from 1719 till 1743 througth the Establishments, so we have this and the real Victory gun as proof for a real life gun.
We can compare the weights, please guys help me with your historical knowledge if my way of thinking is right
@Armada,
@SeaNorris. :
Here what Establishments and Caruana says, with fit in real life guns for comparing:
12 pounder 10ft
Bronze = 33 1/4cwt (real life gun, armament of 1737 Victory, today in a police station, because was illegal recovered from the wreck side by a Dutch company)
12 pounder 9ft6in
Bronze = 31cwt (1743)
Iron = 34,5cwt (34-2-20) real life gun, today in Ireland
Iron = 35cwt (1733)
Iron = 34cwt (1719)
12 pounder 9ft
Bronze = 29cwt (1764)
Iron = 32,5cwt (1764)
Iron = 33cwt (1761)
Iron = 32,5cwt (1743)
Bronze = 28,5cwt (28-2-19) (real life gun, cast in 1739 by Schalch - Bronze (28-2-19), carried later by Royal George of 1756, Today in Rotunda Museum
Iron = 32,5cwt (1733)
Iron = 32cwt (1719)
Iron = 31cwt partially in 1719
12 pounder 8ft 6in
Iron = 31,5cwt (1764)
Iron = 31,5cwt (1761)
Iron = 31cwt (1743)
12 pounder 7ft 6in
Iron = 29 1/4cwt (1764)
Iron = 28,5cwt (1761)
12 pounder 6ft6in
Bronze = 20cwt (1764)
12 pounder 5ft
Bronze = ~9cwt
Regulations:
The 30 gun ship Establishment of 1716 till 1726 says: (reference ships Mermaid and Dolphin)
12 pounder has to be 8ft 6in
6 pounder has to be 8ft
4 pounder has to be 7ft 6in
The 24 gun ship Establishment of 1743 says 9 pounders 7ft 6in
The 44 gun ship Establishment of 1743 says 18pdr 9ft and 9pdr 8ft and 6pdr 6ft6in -> No further Establishment for a 44 gun ship but 1719 Establishment and 1723 Regulation specify for a 40 gun ship 12 pounders to be 9ft and 6 pounders 8ft 6in
Page 120 of Caruanas 2nd book shows gun deck drawing of frigate southampton of 1757 with 26 guns. 2 guns seems to be shorter then the other 24 guns.
1761 Establishment gives for 28 gun frigate 9pdr 7ft
1763 Regulation gives for 28 gun frigate 9pdr 7ft6in
Fazit:
To the ship and the class itself it seems logic to me, that Southampton was equipped with one of these guns:
- 9pdr 7ft or 9pdr 7ft6in guns iron (fits to 28 gun frigate armament) OR
- 12 pounders 7ft or 7ft6in (fits to 1761 Establishment for 5th rates).
Specially the regulation of 7th year war gives the 28 gun frigate (mother of all frigates) exact 9 pounder with 7 or 7ft6in in length. On the contrary, the 1761 Establishment says for all 5th rates (the 28 gun frigate is) 12 pounder 7ft or 7ft6in guns. The length was chosen for the ship, Caruana said. Now we need to choice what Southampton was equipped with. An 12 pounder of 7ft / 7ft6in or 9 pounder of 7ft / 7ft6in. The iron weight is easy to find. Ill do this tomorrow.
More interesting to me:
Compared to the list of 12 pounders, its important to find out the real weight of the Bronze pattern, we want to use for now. When you take as example the 12 pounder 7ft6in as our gun, then we see a iron weight of 28,5cwt in 1761. One feet up in length (to 8ft6in) means 3cwt more in weight (31,5cwt). The design weight I can now only find in create the 3D version of the real life Bronze gun 12 pounder 9ft, 28,5cwt (28-2-19) (real life gun, cast in 1739 by Schalch - Bronze (28-2-19), carried later by Royal George of 1756, Today in Rotunda Museum and reduce then the same dimendion to the weight of the 12 pounder 6ft6in from 1764. When I got the same result, I can scale the length to 7ft6in but I guess, that typical for Bronze, we have 0,5-1cwt reduce per 6in.
Based on my complete 9 pounder Bronze proportion test, transfered to the 12 pounder gun, this means for our 12 pdr example:
10ft victory gun (1734) = 33 1/4cwt (+ 2 1/4cwt)
9ft6in = 31cwt
9ft = 28,5cwt (1739) and 29cwt in 1764 Seems to be the "same" pattern
means - 2 till 2,5cwt per 6in (I guess 2cwt compared to the 10ft Victory gun)
I guess 8ft6in: 26cwt (+2cwt)
I guess 8ft: 24cwt (+1,5cwt)
I guess 7ft 6in: 22,5cwt (+1,5cwt)
I guess 7ft: 21cwt (+1cwt)
Regulation of 1764: 6ft6in: 20cwt
So guys, what do you think about the transfer to the Bronze gun and what so you think is now the right gun for the Southampton (4 guns we can choice by Establishment (I guess 9pdr 7ft6in 22cwt (Bronze) is the right one (will replaced later by iron pendant)))?
English Wikipedia says Southampton have had 26x 2 pounders and FC and QD 6pdrs. This fits to the armament we are talking before:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Southampton_(1757)
The threedecks.org information confiorms this:
http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=6788
EDIT 23. June 2015:
Ive read more and got new helpful informations:
The Establishment of 1743 (the one before 1761) says 5th rate 9pdr 8ft 26cwt iron.
Caruana said, that based on 1743, the 5th rate rules and the dock bills confirm, ships was not straight equipped with the Establishment given guns because the gun per ship rules, rules the armament but for a 44 gun ship in 1743. There was no Establishment betwen 1719 and 1761 with a ~30 gun ship rule. An the 1743 - 5th rate have had less guns. Caruana says there is logic a fallback, back till the 1723 regulation, there a 30 and a 40 gun ship was set as 5th rate.
When we transfer now this knowledge to the 32 gun ship Southampton, then we have a similar situation. No Establishment rules 32 gun ship. First the 1761 Establishment takes 32 gun ships as new 5th rates. Southampton is build in 1757, so it seems to be right when it was fit to the new 5th rate 32 gun ship regulation. There is an exact armament given (all iron guns):
gundeck: 12 pounder 7ft6in 28,5cwt
FC: 6 pounder 6ft 16,5cwt
QD: 6 pounder 6ft 16,5cwt
There was only a few exceptions. HMS Adventure for example have had 12 pounder 8ft6in equipped.
Long story short: Reading through all pages again, compare different Establishments and regulations, I think were on the best way to use the 1761 regulation for Southampton. I transfer for now the dimensions to Bronze and start sometimes in the future the 1760 Armstrong-Frederick Design in iron.
Please do not understand me wrong when I fill this thread with endless brainstorming ideas but I need your guys feedback if Im on the right way plus it ends for Southampton with the historical correct armament