Need Help After final: how do I get rid of my title and my lands?

[Fluen]

I'm playing the Tales of a Sea Hawk and have finished the main story. Originally, I received my letter of marque by Silehart, when he drafted me into help liberating Speightstown on Barbados. I used that to get promoted enough to get the "land troops" perk and no further.

Even when Silehart made me an enemy of England, I kept my title and my lands. I supposed this indicated, that the crown had a suspicion he was corrupt.

Now I have finished the main story. I managed to capture Silehart alive. And when I approached the new governor of Port Royale, I had a choice to stay enemies with England or not.
First I tried to stay enemies, but I still kept my title and my lands.
I reloaded and chose to become friends with England and immediately raise the Jolly Roger and cruise the sea, until I had sunk an English ship. This automatically made me enemies with England, but neither the new governor of Port Royale or the governor of Alice Town (the only other English colony I haven't conquered) have an option for scolding me for sinking English ships.

What can I do to get rid of my title and lands? I find it silly, that I'm busy making enemies with England and still have a standing there.

 

[Cannon_Ball]

you have to be a pirate .. feel free .. sail the seas .. face new challenges .. life as an aristocrat is not for you ..

 

[Fluen]

I've noticed, that only some of the English governors seem to have the dialogue about a player attacking ships of the governor's nation and the option of annulling the letter of marque. Is it an idea to make all governors have that dialogue?
Note, I haven't checked governors of other nations.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Just behave like a HORRIFIC pirate and betray your employers and shoot at friendly ships and you'll be kicked out of the Service in no time at all!

I've noticed, that only some of the English governors seem to have the dialogue about a player attacking ships of the governor's nation and the option of annulling the letter of marque. Is it an idea to make all governors have that dialogue?
Note, I haven't checked governors of other nations.

All governors share 1 file for most base functionality, so what works for 1 should ideally be working for all others.
If you find this is untrue, please report because that would seem like an inexplicable bug to me...

 

[Grey Roger]

I've noticed, that only some of the English governors seem to have the dialogue about a player attacking ships of the governor's nation and the option of annulling the letter of marque. Is it an idea to make all governors have that dialogue?
Note, I haven't checked governors of other nations.

Can you name any of the governors who do give that dialog and any who don't? If I have a couple of examples of each, I can look to see if there is anything obviously different between them.

 

[Fluen]

Maybe I'm looking for the wrong piece of dialogue. I've found the files governor.c and governor.h. But I can't figure out how to be told, that the king does never forget his enemies and get the "leave bad"-exit, which I assume is loosing my title and lands.

It seems like I should crave forgiveness, but the new governor of Port Royale only mentions a price, I have to pay for that forgiveness. What does it take to get the unforgiveness?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

What does it take to get the unforgiveness?

You cannot anger a nation enough just by talking.
You have to actually CAUSE OFFENSE!
Go on a rampage AGAINST your served nation and see how quickly they kick you out!

 

[Grey Roger]

Maybe I'm looking for the wrong piece of dialogue. I've found the files governor.c and governor.h. But I can't figure out how to be told, that the king does never forget his enemies and get the "leave bad"-exit, which I assume is loosing my title and lands.

I've been looking at the dialogs for governors. The line "You have harmed <insert country> and <insert king> does not forget his enemies. Leave at once, or the guards will toss you out on your ear!" is from the section dealing with buying amnesty. Unless your reputation is at least 40 (*), you will get this line. If your reputation is high enough then you get the line allowing you to pay for amnesty, the cost being based on your relation with this nation, your reputation, and whether you have a record of executing prisoners.

Neither option does anything to your title or lands. Those are not stripped by the governor. They should be lost when you sink or capture a ship belonging to a nation with whom you currently have a relation better than 0, i.e. a LoM or rank. Function 'AttackRMRelation' in "nations.c" is what does it. If that did not happen while you were friendly to Britain and then attacked a British ship, it will need to be investigated.

In the long term, I may try to do in "Tales of a Sea Hawk" what I did in "Ardent". At one point you're arrested for failing to escort a VIP, then accused of being behind the VIP's kidnap, and kicked out of Spanish service, losing your land, rank and title in the process. The land, rank and title are copied and stored as attributes before being cleared, so that when you clear your name, everything can be put back.

(*) This should probably be replaced by REPUTATION_NEUTRAL which is currently 45, or by (REPUTATION_NEUTRAL+REPUTATION_RASCAL)/2 which would give the same 40 and allow you a little bit of naughtiness.

 

[Fluen]

You cannot anger a nation enough just by talking.
You have to actually CAUSE OFFENSE!
Go on a rampage AGAINST your served nation and see how quickly they kick you out!

I have taken all English towns except Port Royale. I'd call that a rampage.

In the long term, I may try to do in "Tales of a Sea Hawk" what I did in "Ardent". At one point you're arrested for failing to escort a VIP, then accused of being behind the VIP's kidnap, and kicked out of Spanish service, losing your land, rank and title in the process. The land, rank and title are copied and stored as attributes before being cleared, so that when you clear your name, everything can be put back.

So I would have to escort an English ship and then let that ship sink during a battle. Is that what I should do?

Or I would have to have a bad reputation, when I ask for forgiveness?

And it was because of a glitch, that I didn't loose my title and my lands, when Silehart turned against me. Is that correctly understood?

 

[Grey Roger]

So I would have to escort an English ship and then let that ship sink during a battle. Is that what I should do?

No, you'd need to play "Ardent".

There are two ways to leave the service of a nation. The "good" way leaves your title and land intact and normally happens if you tell a governor that you no longer want to serve his nation. Your rank is stored in the background and restored if you later choose to buy a LoM from the same nation. The "bad" way removes your land and title and does not store your rank, so if you later ask for forgiveness, you start at the bottom.

"Tales of a Sea Hawk" uses the "good" way so that, if you accept Governor Brin's offer later, your rank is restored.

"Ardent" uses the "bad" way but first the storyline code has its own way of storing your land, title and rank, and later restores them all. This only happens at the relevant parts of the story. A lot earlier, the story gives you a Spanish LoM; if you then choose to turn against Spain, the normal system should take effect (and the story may have an additional penalty).

So, if I have time later, I may rewrite "Tales of a Sea Hawk" to do something similar - store your land, title and rank explicitly in the storyline code and make you leave British service the "bad" way when Silehard turns nasty, then have Brin restore everything if you choose to accept his job offer.

Or I would have to have a bad reputation, when I ask for forgiveness?

That won't affect your land or title, it just means that you can't buy amnesty from any governor.

 

[Fluen]

Does this mean, that a player doesn't loose their title and lands, when Silehart outlaws them in "Tales of a Sea Hawk"?

 

[Grey Roger]

Exactly. You leave British service on good terms, you keep your title and land, you lose your rank but it's stored in the background. Later on, Brin restores your rank.

If you left British service on bad terms then you'd lose your title, land and rank permanently. Brin would not be able to restore anything. He could give you a new LoM but you'd need to earn all your ranks and titles again from Midshipman upwards.

 

[Fluen]

So if I approached Brin and handed him the captured Silehart, but then refused to resume a good relation with England, I should have lost my titles and lands at the time? Then I must have encounteret some kind of glitch, because I kept them.

 

[Grey Roger]

No, because the game made you leave England on good terms, so you kept your title and land, and your rank was stored in the background. By refusing Brin's offer, you're still out of English service on good terms.

You'd need to accept Brin's offer so that you're back in service, then go and attack an English ship. That's the sort of treachery which should cost you your land, title and rank.
Or, for extra piratical amusement, accept Brin's offer, then attack Port Royale and kick Brin out as you conquer the town for yourself.

 

[Fluen]

But that was, what I chose to do! I reloaded to before the conversations with Brin, handed over Silehart, accepted an English pardon and then raised the pirate flag and sunk English ships.

And I still kept my title and lands. So the glitch must have happened, when I sank the first English ship and lost my good standing with England.

 

[Grey Roger]

That is odd! Can you upload a savegame from shortly before you talk to Governor Brin, so I can check exactly what happens?

 

[Fluen]

Sorry. I no longer have that savegame. I only kept the one from right before, I fought the Black Pearl. Will that be of use?

 

[Grey Roger]

Neither option does anything to your title or lands. Those are not stripped by the governor. They should be lost when you sink or capture a ship belonging to a nation with whom you currently have a relation better than 0, i.e. a LoM or rank. Function 'AttackRMRelation' in "nations.c" is what does it. If that did not happen while you were friendly to Britain and then attacked a British ship, it will need to be investigated.

I've done some investigating. 'AttackRMRelation' does not appear to be called except in the code for a surrendered ship, and even that doesn't seem to work. It's certainly not called if you sink a ship, and it wasn't called when I loaded up a game in which I had a British knighthood, found some British ships, hoisted a pirate flag and boarded one whose captain then surrendered.

This version of "PROGRAM\NATIONS\nations.c" calls 'AttackRMRelation' from within 'UpdateRMRelation', which is called whenever you sink or capture a ship. Using this version, when I did the same experiment, 'AttackRMRelation' was called and I duly lost my knighthood.

 

[Fluen]

As long as I sink an English ship first, it works.

I went back to the old save with the Black Pearl and finished the main story. Helped the Researcher home to Barbados and went to see Henry Moore on Jamaica. I turned Silehart over to him and chose to resume my friendly relationship with England. Then I raised the pirate flag and set out to sea.

In my first try I encountered both English and Portugese ships in a group and sank a Portuguese ship as the first one. That only made the English wary of me, and I still kept my title and my lands, even when I sank all the English ships in the group and had an outright hostile relationship with England at the end of the battle.

So I reloaded and set out to sea again. This time I encountered only English ships and sank one of them. That made England hostile in one go and rid me of title and lands.

 

[Grey Roger]

Yes, that sounds about right. Deliberately attacking ships belonging to a nation whom you're supposed to be serving by having a LoM is outright treachery and automatically strips your title and land. Attacking an ally turns the nation wary, which removes your LoM, but only strips land and title if you have a bad reputation. That way you don't get the full penalty if your crime is failing to pay attention to tavern news, specifically random relation changes during FreePlay.

If you want to lose your land and title for attacking an ally of Britain as well as for attacking Britain itself, try this version of "nations.c". Then see what happens if you attack a Portuguese ship. Or a Dutch ship - unless they've changed relations randomly, Holland should also be an ally of Britain. You shouldn't need to have British ships nearby; if this works, attacking an allied ship should do the bad stuff without needing to attack a British ship as well.