Additional Ship Balancing

[Captain Maggee]

Yep Pieter and I discussed the whole Cursed/Ghost Fleut and decided that the name didnt fit with the whole Dutchman storyline :

 

[Armada]

Yep Pieter and I discussed the whole Cursed/Ghost Fleut and decided that the name didnt fit with the whole Dutchman storyline :

Yes, but I don't even recall saying that Dutchman's name was a problem :|
What I said was that the 40- and 44-Gun 4th Rates should actually be 5th Rates, but is the name '40/44-Gun 5th Rate' the correct one to use in this case?

And what I meant about the Wicked Wench, is that with her CORRECT stats, she does not fit into the class system for 'Balanced ships' very well.
By this I mean that she has a lower class than ships with LESS guns and capacity than her. She is also cheaper than ships lower than her, so in terms of Oberleutnant's class system, the Wicked Wench is now out-of-place.
On the other hand, she is a 'unique', 'quest-only' ship, so should she even be included in the system at all? Or just put into my new group of 'Uncursed Ships' (or something like that)?

As for the Interceptor, I did some research, and she IS meant to be some kind of brig... but what name could we give her which we DON'T already have?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Yes, but I don't even recall saying that Dutchman's name was a problem :|

No, you didn't. I just mentioned it as being a semi-related thought that I myself had a couple of days before.

What I said was that the 40- and 44-Gun 4th Rates should actually be 5th Rates, but is the name '40/44-Gun 5th Rate' the correct one to use in this case?

I wish I could help you, but my historical knowledge is close to non-existing. :?

And what I meant about the Wicked Wench, is that with her CORRECT stats, she does not fit into the class system for 'Balanced ships' very well.
By this I mean that she has a lower class than ships with LESS guns and capacity than her. She is also cheaper than ships lower than her, so in terms of Oberleutnant's class system, the Wicked Wench is now out-of-place.
On the other hand, she is a 'unique', 'quest-only' ship, so should she even be included in the system at all? Or just put into my new group of 'Uncursed Ships' (or something like that)?

I do think that the Wicked Wench should have the same stats as the Black Pearl,
unless we decide that when she gets cursed (through Davy Jones or the Isla de Muerte treasure) that something changes and she becomes faster or something.
We could also decide that while the Wicked Wench was intended as a merchant ship, when Jack Sparrow goes pirate,
he changes her stats to be more suited to piracy. Or it could be Barbossa who does that; he DOES have all the time and resource to do so.
I would prefer if the unique film ships do fit into the classification system somehow,
though the ridiculous HP numbers shouldn't be taken into account for this.

As for the Interceptor, I did some research, and she IS meant to be some kind of brig... but what name could we give her which we DON'T already have?

Although we've done no work on it yet, I'd like to replace the "type pictures" with "ship screenshots" at some point.
That way you'll know exactly what you're buying and you wouldn't need a specific type name for EVERY single ship.

 

[Armada]

I wish I could help you, but my historical knowledge is close to non-existing. :?

Not to worry- mine isn't great either (but my interest is! )

We could also decide that while the Wicked Wench was intended as a merchant ship, when Jack Sparrow goes pirate,
he changes her stats to be more suited to piracy. Or it could be Barbossa who does that; he DOES have all the time and resource to do so.

This makes sense, as it almost seems strange that a merchant ship of that size has such impressive speed and manoeuvrability.
I would imagine that, in order to make the ship more 'piratey', they would reduce cargo space for extra speed, increase the crew compliment for boarding, and increase the max gun calibre for sea battles?

I would prefer if the unique film ships do fit into the classification system somehow,
though the ridiculous HP numbers shouldn't be taken into account for this.

True, it would be more appropriate to include EVERY ship into the class system somehow.
I assume that the Cursed/Uncursed ships would fit into the 'Navy' category (being pirate ships).
Would the Wicked Wench be better suited to the 'Merchant' group rather that 'Balanced', then?
Oh, and I haven't FULLY checked the list- have you noticed any ships which are still not included in the system?
(One more thing: I'm still annoyed why there are some missing 'model' references in the list- seems these ships have NO 'refship.Model' line in ships_init)

Although we've done no work on it yet, I'd like to replace the "type pictures" with "ship screenshots" at some point.

Yes, that sound's like a great idea!
I think that the original generic images are confusing now, anyway, as we have SO MANY new ship models, and no accurate images to represent them.
Besides, as you said, we wouldn't have to find names for all the ships.
Plus, this would be VERY helpful when repainting the ship! (I'm so tired of trial and error to find the paint job I want! )

 

[Pieter Boelen]

This makes sense, as it almost seems strange that a merchant ship of that size has such impressive speed and manoeuvrability.
I would imagine that, in order to make the ship more 'piratey', they would reduce cargo space for extra speed, increase the crew compliment for boarding, and increase the max gun calibre for sea battles?

There's definitly sense in there. I'd be interested what Captain Maggee says though,
since he's been working on the Jack Sparrow storyline for the past quite long time.

True, it would be more appropriate to include EVERY ship into the class system somehow.
I assume that the Cursed/Uncursed ships would fit into the 'Navy' category (being pirate ships).
Would the Wicked Wench be better suited to the 'Merchant' group rather that 'Balanced', then?

Merchant does sound better, especially since Beckett is the one who gives her to you when you join the EITC.

Talking about that, I tried to play that part a couple of days ago (Sir Christopher Mings line),
but even though Beckett SAID I got the Wench, I didn't get her at all and still had that Navy Cutter!
(I know I was the one to set the Cutter2 as Jack Sparrow's starting ship, but how did he get a Navy Cutter if he was a cartographer in Old England??)

Oh, and I haven't FULLY checked the list- have you noticed any ships which are still not included in the system?

I haven't look at anything and think I'll have to leave it up to your good judgement.
Unfortunately I'm seriously running out of time and only have a few days of potential modding time left before I go back to sea.
True, I only go in 2.5 weeks, but I have one week course and one week holiday in France, leaving me with not much.

(One more thing: I'm still annoyed why there are some missing 'model' references in the list- seems these ships have NO 'refship.Model' line in ships_init)

These lines are what allows you to repaint your ship.
Basically the repaint interface allows you to swap for free between all ships with the same refShip.model set.

Yes, that sound's like a great idea!
I think that the original generic images are confusing now, anyway, as we have SO MANY new ship models, and no accurate images to represent them.
Besides, as you said, we wouldn't have to find names for all the ships.
Plus, this would be VERY helpful when repainting the ship! (I'm so tired of trial and error to find the paint job I want! )

I very much agree. And it's something I KNOW is possible. I'm not sure though who might be able to work on this though.
We'd need a coder to put in the support, then somebody (or multiple people) to make the screenshots.

 

[Captain Maggee]

Yep I think that the screenshots would indeed be better than the pics used currently, then we could simply call them brig, fast brig and heavy brig or something

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I've looked a bit into making the screenshot thing work, but can't really figure it out.
I don't want it to refer to pictures.ini anymore, but just automatically load from RESOURCE\Textures\INTERFACES\Ships .
So far, no good. I asked Pirate_KK for a bit of explanation on pictures in interfaces, because I'm confused.

 

[Armada]

Merchant does sound better, especially since Beckett is the one who gives her to you when you join the EITC.

I've put the Wicked Wench into the merchant category, and she seems to fit in better now.
However, her class (as part of the Merchant system) looks wrong, despite it being the same as the Pearls.

I haven't look at anything and think I'll have to leave it up to your good judgement.
Unfortunately I'm seriously running out of time and only have a few days of potential modding time left before I go back to sea.
True, I only go in 2.5 weeks, but I have one week course and one week holiday in France, leaving me with not much.

That's fair enough- I will do a more thorough check of the list at some point, but for now I'm just making sure what IS there looks right.

Your going to France? Great! I've been there... er, I've lost count how many times!
(I prefer going by ferry- the Channel Tunnel is SOOO boring, even if it is faster. Besides, it's more fun out at sea, right me hearteys? )

These lines are what allows you to repaint your ship.
Basically the repaint interface allows you to swap for free between all ships with the same refShip.model set.

Oh, so that's why some of them don't have a refship.Model line- because you CAN'T 'repaint' it.
I'll just change it to 'N/A' in the list for now.

I'm not sure though who might be able to work on this though.
We'd need a coder to put in the support, then somebody (or multiple people) to make the screenshots.

I'd like to volunteer , to help make the screnshots! BTW, did you mean 'in-game' screenshots, or images of the GM files themselves?
Either way, I can contribute AT LEAST a few...

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Ingame screenshots sound better to me. However, without the code support in place, there's not much that can be done yet.
In fact, somebody already DID make screenshots of a lot of ships and put them on the FTP, which we could try to use for the most part.
Remains to be seen if/when we can get the code support done though.

You'd be welcome to make the Wicked Wench class make sense.
You get her quite early in the game anyway, so it might help if she weren't overclassed too much.

Well, my going to France wouldn't involve going over nor under the sea, because I'm already on the mainland.
However, I can confirm that going out at sea IS the better option!

 

[Captain Maggee]

Im still waiting for them to put a tunnel between Tasmania and mainland Australia :

Our options are to either fly (50 minutes) or go by ferry (9 hours [if I remember correctly]) so I think it is to long for a tunnel

 

[Armada]

I've put the Wicked Wench into the merchant category, and she seems to fit in better now.
However, her class (as part of the Merchant system) looks wrong, despite it being the same as the Pearls.

You'd be welcome to make the Wicked Wench class make sense.
You get her quite early in the game anyway, so it might help if she weren't overclassed too much.

OK, just to rectify, I looked at the wrong attribute of the Wench when thinking her class was wrong
When I looked at her capacity (which governs the class of merchants in this system, if I'm right), it looked fine, so in fact there's no need to tamper with it.
Remember that in the Hornblower storyline, you have control of the Indy quite early on, and that, with the correct class, is a 4th Rate, therefore I don't think the Wench being overclassed for the early stages of Jack's storyline is much of an issue.

Anyway, I've been working some more on the excel file, and have added a table for some ideas for changing the stats of the Pearl variants, including the Wench, to make more sense in the context of the storyline.
In other words, the Wench now becomes a more suited merchant ship, and the other three Pearls become more suited pirate (navy) ships. The changes are explained in sheet 3 of the attached file, so feel free to comment on anything! I will soon integrate the Cursed/Uncursed ships into the system too, once I sort a couple of things out first.


(EDIT: outdated file removed)

 

[Armada]

Well, any opinions? It's been relatively quiet on this thread lately- I know everyone's busy, though.
If anyone gets a moment, do take a look at the modified class system in the excel file above- especially the Black Pearl changes on sheet 3.
ANY comments would be appreciated!

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I had a quick look and it does look pretty good to me.
One comment: "BlackPearl" is the DMC/AWE Pearl with patched sails,
while "UncursedPearl" is the one prior to the cursed (black, but untorn sails).

 

[Talisman]

The changes look good & the Black Pearl ones are sensible

A Small technical question which is causing me some confusion :-

In B14 Beta 1 Patch 1 ( and some previous versions ) if playing in arcade mode. There are differences in the ship class being shown for the same ship.

For example

On the fast travel menu at the bottom left of screen some ships will show as Class 5 ---- When you look at them with the Spyglass ( even the best one ) they will show as Class 4.

The same thing happens with my ships -- On the fast travel menu at the bottom left of screen some ships will show as eg Class 5 but on the ship screen ( F2 ) they are shown as Class 4.

I assume this is because currently the ship balancing is not fully implemented & the new ship classes are not being picked up and displayed correctly yet

It is not just Class 4 -5 -- I have also seen some Class 3 - 4 differences

 

[Armada]

Thanks for your comments guys!
I'll get to work implementing them as soon as I can.

One comment: "BlackPearl" is the DMC/AWE Pearl with patched sails,
while "UncursedPearl" is the one prior to the cursed (black, but untorn sails).

That's what I assumed (going by the sails), so hopefully I got them the right way round in the stats changes. :?

There are differences in the ship class being shown for the same ship.

I've seen that too, and not fully understood why.
So far I've only seen differences of one class between fast-travel and the ship screen/ spyglass, whereas I know that some ships have been changed by two classes or more from their original one.
As far as I know, the only thing that needs adjusting to change a ship's class is the 'refShip.Class' line... right?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

The pictures in the "Sail To" menu have their classes textured on them, so they might not match properly with what you set in ships_init.c.
I wouldn't bother trying to change it. Instead, we should eventually replace those pictures with proper screenshots.
But in the meantime, don't trust the value of those.

 

[Armada]

Oh dammit! I thought all I needed to do was change a few stats for the Black Pearl variants, but it seems there's a lot MORE to be done!
I've just noticed that none of the new prices mentioned in the system are actually IN the game!
(And does 'db' mean 'doubloons'? Just checking.)

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Uhm... I suppose it does mean that, though I'm not sure. The file isn't originally mine... :?

 

[Armada]

Where's Oberleutnant when you need him?
I mean, it's a LOT of work to forget to do, so there may be a reason behind not changing the prices.
Equally, there may not be, in which case I still need to adjust all the prices-
not tonight though, as I'd preferably not have to stay awake 'till God-knows-when staring at a computer screen, or I may look like this by the morning --> :328_skull:
All I have to say is, I hope everyone's got a few more doubloons to spend...

 

[Pieter Boelen]

See your PMs.