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Unrealistic combat influences in the internal settings

When have we ever tried to deliberately mess things up?
Depends on your definition of "mess things up". What you call "make things more challenging" could to me mean "mess things up". ;) For example, the proposals to prevent people from looting as much equipment from defeated enemies, or reduce the value of what they do get. Or to drastically slow down character progression.

When have we ever completely ignored valid feedback without even seriously considering it?
When have we ever put stuff into the game without announcing it on the forum and talking about it for a bit first?
The obvious example since it was pointed out recently was having the "Vogelstruijs" side quest trigger the "Smuggler's Life For Me" side quest, which was done so quietly you didn't even realise it had been done. ;)

When have we ever, after finding out a change didn't work well, not tried to set it right again?
When have we ever, after finding out a change was not welcomed by all, not been willing to point towards a way of rectifying it and/or added a proper toggle?

I know I have always tried very, very hard to please everyone as much as possible.
Surely you must know that by now?
This, of course, is next to impossible, and I thank you for doing such a wonderful job. :bow My main concern is if my playstyle is sufficiently out of line with everyone else's that by trying to keep me happy, you prevent people from going ahead with developments that nobody else minds. In that case, it would be unreasonable of me to stand in the way. But I'll admit that I do sometimes get carried away. :oops:
 
Depends on your definition of "mess things up". What you call "make things more challenging" could to me mean "mess things up". ;) For example, the proposals to prevent people from looting as much equipment from defeated enemies, or reduce the value of what they do get. Or to drastically slow down character progression.
Which, if it really does end up reducing your fun levels, WILL get a toggle.
Because of course it will!

The obvious example since it was pointed out recently was having the "Vogelstruijs" side quest trigger the "Smuggler's Life For Me" side quest, which was done so quietly you didn't even realise it had been done. ;)
That's just a Questbook entry though and, apart from sticking around in there, doesn't actually influence the gameplay in any meaningful way.
I sincerely doubt anyone could have predicted you'd object so strongly to something so seemingly minor.

My main concern is if my playstyle is sufficiently out of line with everyone else's that by trying to keep me happy, you prevent people from going ahead with developments that nobody else minds. In that case, it would be unreasonable of me to stand in the way.
We'd want to make everyone happy here as much as possible, even people who don't contribute.
You actually DO contribute and do a great job at that too! I always value your feedback very much and you often have very good points.
So of course we'd want to keep you happy AND the other people happy.
I don't see the one of those as excluding the other. They don't need to be mutually exclusive anyway. :shrug
 
Which, if it really does end up reducing your fun levels, WILL get a toggle.
Thats nice to hear, I think my playstyle is very close to @Grey Rogers. Looting equipment is one of the aspects I really enjoy , selling it also.
Thats the way I build my career up, thats how I fill the Weaponslocker and so on.
 
I must admit that personally I wouldn't mind if the game were to somehow encourage you to also occasionally buy something.
Otherwise the whole "buying" aspect gets completely bypassed, which seems a bit of a shame.
But before you get all nervous, that's just me thinking out loud!
 
A lot of interesting discussion while I was away. Here are my thoughts on the key points:

1) When it comes to changing the default value, the player choice argument is a red herring, as players remain just as capable of choosing their own new value. A default setting has to be chosen, and the act of changing that choice from a previous one is not anti player choice in any way.

2) I do notice I was weak and vulnerable at early levels; safer and safer as I go up. To some degree that is the right trend. But luck has had a marginal influence so far on this, but it gets stronger as you go up in level. For comparison, gold armor starts at 60 coverage, and becomes 75 at 10 luck with default settings. That is significant, a 37.5% reduction in uncovered vulnerability. But it is more like the player will have 67.5 to start with, because they will probably have around 5 luck when they find it.

I don't think those numbers are necessarily the problem, though they do seem a bit high for a magical influence like luck (again, speaking of default settings, not some cap on player choice). It is a bit odd that it pushes in the direction of more vulnerability for lower players, less for higher (both because higher luck skill, and because it operates as a multiplier of current armor coverage, and that goes up later)

3) Since there seems to be a longterm plan to move away from luck as a magical attribute, and shift to it as a sneak skill, perhaps it makes sense to consider:

Pushing some of the default coverage increase from luck to the base coverage, so that at earlier stages (with weaker armors and weaker luck) there is less vulnerability, and a bit less piling on at the end.

But from the discussion so far that seems an unpopular approach, so how about instead:

PROPOSAL:

Make a setting for defense skill to contribute to armor coverage instead, and by default set it to the same amount 0.025.
 
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Pieter: I actually do buy some weapons and armor: in my current game, I've stocked up on venetian cutlasses, spanish cup hilt rapiers, horse pistols (even worn), musketoons, and of course lots of armor. I like that armor is rare on NPCs, gives an incentive to buy. In general, I am buying the slightly more powerful stuff when it first starts makings its appearance. But I care about my crew, and I think, can I not spare the gold, if the better stuff will keep a few more of them alive? :) (oddly, even at 20x salary they aren't that expensive to hire/replace, but I like roleplaying in my play)
 
A lot of interesting discussion while I was away. Here are my thoughts on the key points:

1) When it comes to changing the default value, the player choice argument is a red herring, as players remain just as capable of choosing their own new value. A default setting has to be chosen, and the act of changing that choice from a previous one is not anti player choice in any way.
By exactly the same argument, why not leave the default as it is and then players who don't like it can change it to suit themselves?

PROPOSAL:

Make a setting for defense skill to contribute to armor coverage instead, and by default set it to the same amount 0.025.
I'm not sure why this needs to be changed; either way you're getting enhanced armour effectiveness from a skill which goes from 1 to 10, so the chance to stop a blade varies between 60 and 75 as you gain levels. But there's also a chance to stop gunfire, which was reduced as armour in reality wasn't much good against guns (which is why, in reality, armies stopped using it as guns became the dominant weapons and swords became obsolete). Whether a bullet hits you in a spot where the armour can stop it really is more a matter of luck than skill on your part, unless you can somehow see the bullet coming and try to dodge it. ;)

As for buying items: even I do that sometimes. :D Skill items, maps, compasses and clocks other than the most basic types - none of these are to be found in chests or looted from corpses. Good armour (battle armour and gold armour) can occasionally be found, but very rarely, so if I find it on sale anywhere, I buy as much as is on offer. And anyone planning on doing treasure quests will need to buy a spade and pickaxe.
 
By exactly the same argument, why not leave the default as it is and then players who don't like it can change it to suit themselves?
Depends on what default is actually best for the game, no?

Is it not strange to have the same armour become substantially more effective throughout the game?
 
Depends on what default is actually best for the game, no?
True, though "what is best for the game" varies from one player to another. Unless other people are unhappy with the default as it is, I recommend leaving it as it is, then whoever wants a tougher game can change it.

Is it not strange to have the same armour become substantially more effective throughout the game?
Not really. You're becoming better at using it. You're getting used to wearing it and compensating for its weight in your movements.
 
Not really. You're becoming better at using it. You're getting used to wearing it and compensating for its weight in your movements.
Which has nothing to do with Luck. I'd understand if it were linked to Fencing, or even Defence.
 
Grey Roger,

I wasn't using "player choice" as itself a reason for change obviously, I was responding to the impassioned speeches in the first page of this thread about how changing the default for a configurable setting would be the death of all player choice, and the cries of "let people have the freedom to play as they wish!" ;)

So the point is the player choice argument doesn't counsel anything at all when it comes to configurable defaults. We could put anything in there and player choice is preserved. So the goal is to pick the best default setting with balance in mind, and doing anything here can never be anti player choice.

My response to your great points regarding my proposal:

A) if we want luck to continue functioning in its current role in the game as a sort of magical influence on the world, I agree, luck is the most appropriate skill.

B) if we want luck to gradually transition to a dedicated sneak skill, then we should change this skill to defense (EDIT or melee actually, I like that idea better). It is realistic actually. You don't have to dodge a bullet, perhaps the person notices someone about to fire, and reduces their profile by turning a bit to the side, darting in one direction, etc. People aware of people shooting at them can certainly make themselves harder to hit, and that is a skill. As a multiplier to armor coverage it is a bit strange (and from a game balance perspective as well, as I argued earlier), but it can be understood as the player protecting their exposed parts or turning to get the bullet to be more likely deflected from the armor rather than hit it head on and thus penetrate it.

Anyway, I had thought B would fit the long term plan from reading some older planning threads regarding luck and sneak. But I've got no particular concern for either result--defense and luck probably don't go more than a couple of points away from each other, so gameplay there will be little difference noticed.

Purely a matter of which direction is desired for luck vs sneak long term.

EDIT: Pieter makes a good point that maybe melee is the better skill than defence. I would say melee is a better choice as well, a doctor shouldn't be better at dodging a bullet. ;) And dedicated fighter characters should see armor effectivness improved form their fighting experience, not from unrelated training. That actually would have a substantially positive effect on game balance, as now fighter characters would get the benefit of their higher melee scores rather than lower luck.
 
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My answer was to the question "Is it not strange to have the same armour become substantially more effective throughout the game?". ;) Perhaps it may indeed make more sense to have armour effectiveness depend on Fencing or Defence rather than Sneak/Luck. Which one is the most appropriate for not being hit by a bullet?
 
My answer was to the question "Is it not strange to have the same armour become substantially more effective throughout the game?". ;) Perhaps it may indeed make more sense to have armour effectiveness depend on Fencing or Defence rather than Sneak/Luck. Which one is the most appropriate for not being hit by a bullet?
Since armour defends against fencing too (mainly fencing now), maybe use that? Defence is more geared towards sea battles, if I recall.
 
By exactly the same argument, why not leave the default as it is and then players who don't like it can change it to suit themselves?
I can give a very simple answer here. During the WIP period we need feedback. it's hard to get feedback here already and we need feedback from different players. So during the WIP period we will often change the thing so it's changed by everyone. then depending on the feedback we can decide to keep it as a default or make it optional.
If we would make it optional in the WIP updates then probably we wouldn't get feedback on it at all or get wrong feedback from people thinking they actually got it enabled while they haven't.
 
As there seems to be a consensus building regarding switching from luck to fencing, I went ahead and made the needed files.

In internal settings, I changed the luck define to a fencing one:

#define ARMOR_FENCING_SCALAR 0.025 // FLOAT - armor coverage scaled by 1.0 + fencing * armor_fencing_scalar

In the relevant file, I changed the part where the define gets used:

float covch = stf(chr.chr_ai.coverage) * (1.0 + makefloat(CalcCharacterSkill(&chr, SKILL_FENCING)) * ARMOR_FENCING_SCALAR);

Files attached.

Assuming most players melee skill goes up faster than their luck, and the player character is more likely to have armor than opponents, this should end up being a slight boost to the player character's armor protection.

Any objections to implementing? @Pieter Boelen @Grey Roger @Levis ?

EDITED to be merged internal settings file with latest levis patch, only included the fencing luck change
 

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  • LAi_fightparams.c
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  • InternalSettings.h
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Pieter, can you confirm I did that correctly, meaning I can just rename defines like that in the internal settings and it stays save compatible and such?

I searched and those are the only two lines the define gets used.
 
Pieter, can you confirm I did that correctly, meaning I can just rename defines like that in the internal settings and it stays save compatible and such?
As long as you rename the #define and all its uses, then it is OK.
And if you miss one, the game will probably tell you and refuse to load. ;)

There may be slight exceptions to that rule, but only if the #define is used in the init file (where it doesn't matter anyway, since that is executed only at game start)
or if it is used in an 'object' (which @Grey Roger found out about, because he changed something that I thought shouldn't matter, but it did).
One way or another: If you did it wrong, don't worry.... You WILL notice! :razz
 
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