Town Economies

[NathanKell]

Yet Another Overhaul.
Or rather, an overhaul of a mod.

I'm not very satisfied by the way towns are currently handled, and neither are a number of others judging by comments.

The first dynamic economy system I wrote--what's in the current build--is pretty poor. Everything is based on a town's population, and that is based on wheat, which is in turn sorta based on pop, and so the scales are weighted towards growth. But it's also pretty easy to get extremes out of it.

So.
How do we rework this?

I'm not an economist, I haven't even taken a course in economics. Let alone am I versed in simulating economies.
We could _really_ use the input of someone more versed in these matters, and I'm hoping one (or more!) of you are. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

But here's some ideas (and they may be completely wron in terms of economics...)

1. Have a separate town.economy attribute. With that, measure the economic vitality of the town. When the economy is good, the town will have more money and will attract immigrants. When the economy is bad, people will leave.
Note that this does _not_ track with how much gold a town has; if you sell a town's store oodles of goods, the town's gold supply may be far less but its _economy_ improved. But we still need a way to have large but poor towns...

2. Have a separate town.land attribute. It's a poor name for a rough idea, but in general this should be how hospitable to growth the town (and island) is. For example, a town built on a gold mine may have a great economy, but it's not a sustainable place to live and survives on imports. A plantation colony (even with cash crops) is a more sustainable colony, even if its per capita wealth is much less.

So a town grows if its economy is improving and if there's land left. As time passes a town with a good economy may clear more land, increasing the land attribute (but islands should have maximums!).

So I'm actually talking about three land attributes.
*The absolute max usuable land area for an island.
*The currently cleared land area for an island.
*The total of `in-use` land for each town.

Regarding Economy. Trading with a town--whether you buy _or_ sell--should increase the economy. "Investing"--as I'm sure Cat will bring up!--is a way to increase it in a big way. It's also subject to random fluctuation, but generally (as habitable land increases) it should trend up.

Hmm.
Perhaps we have a colony_type attribute. That would determine the maximum `per-capita` economy of the town. I.e. a town by a gold mine is type goldmine, a sugar island is type sugar plantation, and a transhipping destination (or buccaneer haven) would each have different types.
Port towns, because their economies aren't `land-based`, shouldn't require much land, but would need to be in an area of lots of sea traffic, or a `stop-over` point on the way in or out of the pelago. (And ditto pirate havens, either right in the middle of sea traffic or far out of the way.)

Maybe it's best to have some mix types as well.
Or, perhaps even better, to have a single town and multiple "business types" under it, i.e. gold mine business, port business, plantation business, etc.
And the town's max economy is the _sum_ of the max economies of those...

And towns with big economies and populations might split off into two (or more) towns, and separate the businesses (port town, plant. town, mine town).


Now, you'll notice that with much of this I'm assuming there are _way_ more islands (let alone towns!) than there currently are. But I'd far rather build one backend and one backend only for this.

But in the short term, even if we don't add new _islands_, there's no reason we can't add more _towns_. While we have no Cuba/Hispaniola/Jamaica, let alone mainland, we could easily have a few towns per island, a few towns per _colony_ (i.e. Redmond `Port-town`, Redmond island's plantation center, a mine, fishing, etc.)

Now, those town types I mentioned above should produce goods (although we don't have a "raw gold" good for mines...). And ships arriving should both add and subtract goods (and money). And towns on the same island could trade goods with one another (x goods * (sum of town sizes)), increasing the economy of both.

Thus import and export would be based on the town type, and the level of import/export based on the size. Some goods could only be manufactured in Europe, and so towns would always have at least _some_ import need of them.

Port cities' lifeblood would be in receiving European convoys and then distributing the goods via small merchant ships to various other colonies.

And ditto immigrants, yet another cargo type. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

 

[CatalinaThePirate]

I can see things like this - you mention a colony type situation - well, colonies were established, generally, so that the founding country could get richer off of the monies or goods produced by that colony. So at first the colonies would have money put INTO it by the sponsor country, and then at the appropriate time would be expected to then offer up to their sponsor a percentage of what the colony earns (yearly tribute, monthly tribute, whatever)...

Trade (buying and selling) between colonies should help the economy, as long as each is getting a fair share of the business.

A privateer might offer to "invest" in a shop or shipyard for a cut of the profits, which could be money, or perhaps offered in terms of favor for his colony if he invested in a "foreign" port (if you invest in the shipbuilding business on Douwesen, and you are English, the Dutch would look more favorably on the English). You could help promote peace, or foster war, if you wish, between your island and another simply by trading - or NOT trading - with their businesses. Depending upon whether you take money or not, you could also gain as a "reward" or "cut", land deeds, stock in mines, titles or rank, &tc...

You can also provide goods to different colonies when you plunder ships. So you head into town and sell them goods. This should up your rep with that colony, and theirs with your nation. This however drains the town money supply, so we need an idea of how to keep that balanced...

Just some preliminary thoughts - I don't know beans <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="icon_wink.gif" /> about Economics <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" /> - given the choice in school, I took Contemporary Problems instead - which to me, interested as I was in anthropology and archaeology :Q - was much more fascinating than percentages and <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/poet.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":hmm" border="0" alt="poet.gif" /> spreadsheets! <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ko.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="ko.gif" />

 

[Meethos]

Both of you have great Ideas. I think the new nation.strength should also come into play. It make sense to me that a more powerful nation would most likely have a better economy then a weaker, less powerful nation. Perhaps use it as a wealth/population modifer.

On the other hand if many cities belonging to one nation had poor economies, it would be unlikely that the infrastructure could support a strong nation.

So perhaps a nation.infrastructure attribute would be in order. It would look at all the town.economy attributes of a given nation and if the sum falls within a specific range than it would increase or decrease the infrasturcture attribute which would in turn limit how high the nation.strength attribute could go and perhaps increase or decrease it as needed.

On another note if the nation.infrastructure and the nation.strength both drop below a predefined then perhaps the cites within that nation would rebel (soilders/guards would desert, thugs would run rampant, shops would close, if its a port city, then the fort strength would be reduced) making the town ripe for plunder <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile2.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=")" border="0" alt="smile2.gif" />

Which leads me to another idea... since were doing all this overhauling would it be possible to make a town captureable by a nation? For starters, to keep things simple <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" /> is it possible to just change the towns alligence and a small script that would replace all the soldiers with ones from the conquering nation. Don't know how this would affect quests though.... (like from the govenor..) anyways....

Perhaps I'm making things more complicatied then need be, but those are my ideas. Keep up the great work all.

 

[Capitan]

well economy should revolve around farmland people work on farms to make wheat and other foods with these other foods the colony has a food supply for more people these other people go to work on mining, logging and other industries which the colony can export for money increasing it's funds and allowing it to pay for more workers causing the colony to flourish even more that's how a colonial economy should work

 

[CouchcaptainCharles]

Excellent ideas <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/onya.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="onya.gif" />
I think that many people haven't even realized that you had made an economic system, cause it shows only in the stats, prices or in what the citizens tell you about townsize. And even then you wouldn't necessaryly realize that these stats had been influenced by economic events. So it might be good if one could make some visual or OBVIOUS gameplay effect of the economy, otherwise all the work on a more sophisticated system might be a bit wasted.
Not that i had good proposals for that at hand. All i can think of at the moment are e.g.

1. dialogreferences like "Thanks to your trading activities our town is booming. The towncouncil awards you this gem in apreciation" or "In this starving town you won't find sailors for your ship"

2. tradingmissions and escortquests could be availlable only in richer towns, getting more profitable with booming economies, and tavernkeepers and merchants could TELL YOU SO

3. I could try to change VC in a way that in richer towns there are less pickpockets, and more people with fine clothes, having more money (you can rob) and offering trading more often. (I am currently rewriting VC anyway for locationspecific NPCs. What I'd need for that is a decision which of the fine new charactermodels will be included in the future Builds)

4. and I could try to write the future housegenerator in a way that in richer towns you get more grand mansions instead of shabby huts, offering more chests to plunder.

<!--`QuoteBegin-Meethos`+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Meethos)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Which leads me to another idea... since were doing all this overhauling would it be possible to make a town captureable by a nation?  For starters, to keep things simple <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />  is it possible to just change the towns alligence and a small script that would replace all the soldiers with ones from the conquering nation. .[/quote]
That feature is basically finished and will be applied to selected towns in the future. And, to open yet another pandora's box of brainstorming, I think about an option where you can keep a captured town for yourself and become it's ruler. But i am not sure if it is a good idea, and how "being a ruler" could take effect gameplaywise. As I am already drowning in work i can't do anything complicated like allowing you to build houses or found factories. What I MAY be able to do is anyhting that happens in dialogs and stats, e.g.

5. people would greet you with respect and some great title <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

6. soldiers could wear your uniform, follow your orders or join you as bodyguard (i.e. officer)

7. you could impose fines and taxes on people (being too greedy could stifle the economy or start a revolt)

8. crews could be drafted for free, goods and repairs would be cheaper for you

If you have any other ideas on that level please put them forward. Though I must caution you, I don't know if and when I can make anything of this.

 

[Inez Dias]

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So it might be good if one could make some visual or OBVIOUS gameplay effect of the economy, otherwise all the work on a more sophisticated system might be a bit wasted.  <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally agree. Apart from the things you suggested, you could have additional decorative items (like flowerpots - here's the girl speaking) in rich towns, more beggars in poor towns .. (And no, Alan, I don't want gallows and guillotines and torture chambers)
BTW, I just love the random house generator idea, and there's much more potential in sending geometry to locators.

 

[alan_smithee]

Yeah, colonists and plantations I've been thinking about... like, a regularly generated quest, like transporting cargo or escorting merchants, could be transporting colonists or settlers among islands. They'd stay in your hold, reducing your capacity to store plundered goods... and you'd want to avoid fights anyway so they don't die. If you deliver them safely, everybody's happy and you get +rep... but if a percentage die, you lose that much reward money, rep, exp, etc.

Plantations I figured on just adding sooner or later, like to the second half of FdF, but hadn't thought yet of just what could be done with them.

Also: some of what's been mentioned here sounds like an increased influence on the part of the player on relations between nations, possibly pushing colonies toward revolt* or fighting one another. Looks like that could be done overtly, through whom you favour with your business, and covertly, as in the sneaky sneaky stuff CCC's been doing.

* this was the faintest spark of a quest possibility that occured to me, to provide some colonists with arms for their own militia (say, Oxbay inhabitants are disatisfied with England's ability to protect them, after the French invasion) and help them gain independence... the closest thing to owning your own island.

---

No gallows and guillotines and torture chambers? oh my. Stocks and pillories, then? <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="icon_wink.gif" /> <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dev.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":d:" border="0" alt="dev.gif" />

(And then you could amuse yourself for hours by throwing tomatoes at the poor creatures, or make a bundle by being the tomatoe supplier.)

 

[NathanKell]

Cat:
Re: founding of colonies, and colony/`mother-country` balances. Good idea, but I think it may be beyond the scope of this; while splitting exisisting colonies is a relatively simple thing, adding an entire backend devoted to nations making entirely new colonies is I think a bit too much work.
But perhaps not; if we make the game `long-enough` lasting for a pchar's entire sailing life, it's not beyond the pale that new colonies would be founded...

So in re: investing, it sounds like two separate tiers. The simpler one, you find an existing business and give the proprietor some capital, and they give you proceeds over time; the latter is making your _own_ business venture.

{You certainly know enough to bring up some excellent points!}
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Meethos: Hmm.
The question here, I think, is a `chicken-and`-egg one, i.e. one might logicly have nation strength coming from town strength--but at the same time, one might also make the reverse case.
I think this ties into Cat's point; that in the beginning of a colony's life the balance is negative (nation pours wealth/resources in), and then later, the balance is positive (nation gets wealth/resources back). Once the balance flips, then the colony starts thinking about how unfair it is to ship wealth away...
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Capitan: That's a model for an expansion colony (i.e. New England), not a cash colony (i.e. the South, the Caribbean sugar islands). Basically, that's what happens when the mother country is _not_ so overtly involved; but for a cash (mercantilist) colony, growing food or doing industry is the _last_ thing you want to be doing there; far more profitable to do whatever the cash industry is and let places that don't have such a cash industry supply needed goods!
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CCC: I wouldn't call it a full economic system; rather, it's a dynamic system that does its changed via randomness, not actual factors. But you're right that even then there's no obvious display of it.

Re: quests: great! And they'd also depend on town type...
Re: visual signs. Yeah, or even just _more_ people.
Re: clothes, actually, this brings up a project I was going to do back before Build 12 was released (IIRC), that is using solely the Models[] array to determine what models to use, rather than `hard-coding` choices.
I.e. for all models that are possible to use when generating a tavern officer, add flag "use this model for officers" and a subflag "type of officer". Then we build a list of models to use for that LandEnc by searching through the models array for all models that have that flag.
Same for bandits, vags, house residents, etc.
Then you can set minimum and maximum price outfits to use when selecting vags/house residents.
And that way the code would be in no way dependent on what models are there (it would work like adding items or ships, you add the define and the code does the rest.)

I'd also like to get rid of the various Citizen characters, and use location fantoms (I think we talked of this before?) with similar `model-choosing`, and most especially:

Re: dialog. What I want to have eventually is completely parametric citizen dialog. You can actually see the remains of this in the existing citizen dialogs; rather than the `info-about`-people choices and texts `hard-coded`, originally they checked to see which people were in town, and pulled up info about them from a central store (like rumors).
That way the number of citizens in a town is based on wealth and size, their models based on that and the nation, and their dialogs all generated.
{I think we talked a bit about this when first implementing location fantoms}

Regarding house generator.
Now that we can add locators, we can add houses--not just the insides, attached to `previously-locked` doors--but the outsides of them, to location models (IIRC Alan's--and your?--work). The problem is that they would not do well with locational lighting, but that's probably a survivable downside compared to the advantages.
So then even the _exteriors_ of houses could vary based on the state of the town.
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Inez:
And (in connection with adding `code-side` models to towns) you bring up flower pots and other neat little signs of the health of a town, which I too think is a great idea, and doable per adding models to locators.

And I second your injunctions against EEEEVIL, though maybe we could make it toggleable for those of a more sinister (or at least ghoulish) nature.
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Alan: Yeah, I was thinking the same way re: passengers. We could set them as a good but turn off display of them, and you'd see the local governor/mayor/headman to be done of them.

 

[england]

lo again all , it's been a wile since i was last online here , and i would like to have an input here <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/keith.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="keith.gif" />


I was thinking on a PR system : having 2 types of colony's

A governer town that produces luxery goods

Plantation isle that produces colonial goods

Prehaps you also could having the player build an hospital and school to simulate the population, or having a "town reputation" or somthing like that to atackt Europeans to come to the new world

 

[Inez Dias]

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I second your injunctions against EEEEVIL, though maybe we could make it toggleable  <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want that for RL, too...

 

[alan_smithee]

Luxury goods I've mused on before, too... like transporting art (paintings, statues) and furniture and such, instead of just raw goods. They could be produced in the wealthier towns, the type of art depending on the town and its founding nation's strengths/expertice. This could even be more of a personal job, something you'd do for a governor or any other wealthy landowner or craftsman, instead of just from store to store. Maybe you could even acquire some (through, say, PIRACY!?) and sell them yourself...

 

[NathanKell]

England: welcome back! <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/par-ty.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="par-ty.gif" />

Inez: Sign me up! <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/onya.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="onya.gif" />

 

[Inez Dias]

furniture ! <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="yes.gif" />

 

[NathanKell]

Alan: neat!
Actually, we might consider making goods and items convertable to each other, i.e. clothes (good) -> so many different outfits, or furniture (good) -> actual placeable pieces of furniture.

Heh. If we use characters as furniture, you could even use some keys to position them...decorate your own house!

 

[Inez Dias]

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Heh. If we use characters as furniture, you could even use some keys to position them...decorate your own house!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Decorating rooms has been suggested by Alan before, and I just love it ("Sims" fan here). We were discussing to use dialogs for positioning, (choose one in a set of preset locators). Making them characters is intriguing, but you'd always run into them because the patch isn't updated.

 

[NathanKell]

Ah, right, and they'd move on hitting.
You all figured out how to teleport geometry to a position, IIRC? {If so, never mind my above, no need for chars}

 

[alan_smithee]

In my imagination furniture placing could be handled on the visible side, either in your cabin* or prospective room in a mansion, by setting some gm locators in certain spots (beside the bed against the wall, in a corner, etc.; with updated paths for each - or even start with stock crappy furniture in those places, so you only need the one path and you already know where the furniture can go), then you can see models of what furniture's available in some shop, tell the guy "I want that there chester drawers beside my bed," and bango - it's right there for you to bang your shin on in the middle of the night (`little-known` #1 cause of peglegs).

* Maybe start the game with a pretty much `stripped-down` cabin - a swinging hammock for a bed, milkcrate for a desk, no chests or weapons... then add to it with purchases and gifts of furniture, prizes and trophies (in the form of jewels, swords or, heh, sorry guys, heads or ears), and so on. A nice visible way to track your progress in the game...

... maybe even get your own blank cave interior location, to decorate with treasure, or use as some remote lair... (and here I like to picture the Batcave) ... ha, like if you go with a smuggler or pirate "career" and no governor will let you room in their place.

Benefit of all this, having both a static room somewhere on solid ground and one in your cabin, and maybe it's already been mentioned, but this could play into the inventory changes: you keep some treasure in your place on land, maybe hire some guards for it, if you don't want to risk it all with an usurer... and then you keep some treasure in your ship, transferrable to a new prize or bought vessel, but all subject to being lost save for a seachest or two (you get your lifeboat [and can we make that an `honest-to`-goodness rowboat instead of the tartane?], but instead of some useless bombs inexplicably appearing in it, you get some percentage of the gold, furniture, weapons, even outfits in your old ship).

And yeah, I'd like to be able to `sell-off` some of my old outfits instead of dragging them around with me everywhere.

---

Oh, yeah, and to clarify on "teleporting geometry to a position"... we got this step pretty much figured out sometime while you were away, NK: The way you temporarily place a model somewhere, and this is already built into the game and you see it with that big wooden stake when you have to rescue Clement in Greenburgh, is some lines of code where you say what you want placed and where, what kind of locator that where is, and there's a line for shading it properly, or else it appears unnaturally bright. You can put these lines into a location's entry in a location's init.c file, or as a quest case, in which case it can be temporary, switched for something else, and so on.

You see this also with little `shop-stands`, set to appear only during the day in certain locations (with a different path file used at night, so you can walk where those shops were); and with those little wagons and piles of goods on the beach with smugglers, triggered to appear when you agree to sell some goods.

 

[alan_smithee]

Oh, oh, oh, I just had a thought! When you said "they'd move on hitting," NK... people've been talking about other puzzle/quest games, and I'm thinking here of Tomb Raider and the like, where you have to _push and drag_ some items to get to other locations... We could add that as far as pushing something, like a big boulder, if it's defined as a character and so will move upon being brushed up against*... for, you know, some reason or other.

* I for one am disappointed that I can't push up against someone and slide him off a dock into the water...

 

[NathanKell]

"And what locator that where is"
Sorry, I wasn't clear. That much I knew (or at least knew was possible); I meant teleporting geometry to where there is _no_ locator, i.e. aribtrary XYZ coords. And thus the reason for using characters, because them you /can/ toss around with straight XYZ coords.
{checking...}
That's odd--you can set _rotation_ directly, but not position
{MSG_LOCATION_MODEL_SET_ROT}
And also UVs--but I can't imagine why you'd want to change texture coords, or what UV would mean if not tex coords.
Inez (oh guru of POTC graphics <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_praise.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="icon_praise.gif" /> ), do you know what they mean by UVs?

I guess you could get around this restriction by creating a tight grid of locators...I wonder if there's a limit on number of locators in an object.
And they'd be easy to apply thanks to Inez's tool: Tool->Locators->Write to file, generate a text file based on the location's dimensions and append that to the locators file, then read back in and save.
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It's funny; I hadn't realized how much I missed P!G's treasure cave until you brought it up--but I do. Adding some obvious signs of how you're doing--let alone the Sim*-style approach of having _control_ over it, is a great idea.
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But in re: lifeboat--actually, a tartane's the perfect size. (AFAIK/IIRC) Actual honest lifeboats usually had a small sailing rig and were quite big compared to dinghies. The tartane's about 36' (11m anyway), perhaps a bit long.

I mean, the dinghy on our lawn is a `12-foot` `double-ender` and she has a nice little rig--well, could have; we lost the mast long ago. (Heck, even the 6 footer in back has a little sprits'l).
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Re: pushing objects: great! You really are a master at using features in unexpected ways...
We should add some snippet of code that on location exit saves the positions of those `object-characters`, so on next load they don't move back to a locator.
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Re: Clothes. Yeah, we should just implement them as items, and a fill the changemodel list from the items list. Then you'd need one outfit per character, finally.

 

[Inez Dias]

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->do you know what they mean by UVs?  <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really. Are you saying there's a MSG_LOCATION_MODEL_SET_UV?
It would be cool, though, if it were texture coordinates, you could then have all sorts of animation effects with moving textures.
Can you give the syntax for sending that message ?Then we could just try it.