The Moon (and Dinosaurs)

[Cerez]

I would love to see a world like that presented in a book, a video game, or on screen.

Talk of the devil, I just came across this video game in development! It's hilarious!

Something like this, but with a little more realistic, detailed world interaction and natural balance is what I had in mind (as far as a video game goes).

 

[The Nameless Pirate]

I don't know about you, but I'd actually love to see a film, or even a realistic animated film featuring a more true-to-life depiction of dinosaurs as larger prehistoric animals, many of whom share a common link with today's animals.

It would make it no less dangerous to be, say, a human walking around among them, but it would breathe so much more life into the animals themselves. And when the human characters are attacked, there would be very good reason why. They would have to explore and learn about their new environment, all the while trying to survive (and get home).

To me, there's something alluring about being a part of nature in this way -- finding yourself in the middle of the food chain, connected.

Walking among dinosaurs would be a bit like having been magically shrunk to the size of a small rabbit, and having to navigate the wildlife in the grass, avoiding predators, and all the while experiencing the wonders of nature, connecting with nature -- experiencing life.

You remember that warm scene in Jurassic Park with the Brachiosaurus, up in the tree? There would be moments like that, but 10 times more real, and so much more of them -- adventure and exploration, not just senseless, endlessly exhilirating action.

I would love to see a world like that presented in a book, a video game, or on screen.

I would indeed like a work that has a more true design in it's dinosaurs.

It would be really refreshing to see it, when compared to the our older perception of dinosaurs.

Edit:

Talk of the devil, I just came across this video game in development! It's hilarious!

Something like this, but with a little more realistic, detailed world interaction and natural balance is what I had in mind.

Interesting, good catch!

 

[Pieter Boelen]

By behaviour/movement? Closest to nature?

You mean it's closely inspired on a cobra, which is definitely a realistic animal.
Right you are.

Except that their appetite is never satisfied -- which effectively turns them into killing machines and monsters. Compare Jurassic Park's Velociraptors and T-Rex with a lion or tiger, and you get the picture. It's just as bad a representation as that of sharks in Jaws.

Indeed satisfied appetites aren't in there. And the predator dino's are pretty close to classic movie monsters.
But at least the herbivores aren't shown as monsters; which is something.
Also, dinosaurs are either long gone or complete fantasies; so at least people can't start discriminating against them this time.

Wasn't until Jurassic Park III that the predators show anything other than "eat, eat, eat" tendencies.
There they just wanted their eggs back.

Yep!! There are so many testaments to this. The problem is we live so far removed from nature that even our imagination is imbalanced, blown way out of proportion. Worse yet, we begin to believe what we imagine, completely deceiving ourselves.

I do like imagination.
As long as we keep clear what is real and what we're making up.

How many (pairs of) ribs does a human being have?

(Answer it by what you know from learning.)

Dunno. 7 pairs? 14 total.
Can't say I ever cared...

guess how Hollywood makes dinosaur and other monster roars/sounds.

I've got a memory of there being dolphins in there somewhere as well.
Really grabbed from all over the place.
But I can't deny it works wonders.

I don't know about you, but I'd actually love to see a film, or even a realistic animated film featuring a more true-to-life depiction of dinosaurs as larger prehistoric animals, many of whom share a common link with today's animals.

It would make it no less dangerous to be, say, a human walking around among them, but it would breathe so much more life into the animals themselves. And when the human characters are attacked, there would be very good reason why. They would have to explore and learn about their new environment, all the while trying to survive (and get home).

To me, there's something alluring about being a part of nature in this way -- finding yourself in the middle of the food chain, connected.

Walking among dinosaurs would be a bit like having been magically shrunk to the size of a small rabbit, and having to navigate the wildlife in the grass, avoiding predators, and all the while experiencing the wonders of nature, connecting with nature -- experiencing life.

You remember that warm scene in Jurassic Park with the Brachiosaurus, up in the tree? There would be moments like that, but 10 times more real, and so much more of them -- adventure and exploration, not just senseless, endlessly exhilirating action.

I would love to see a world like that presented in a book, a video game, or on screen.

Sounds interesting.
Some story where the main characters are dropped into the past and have to survive.

Or perhaps set it on another planet; just to disconnect it from people's fantasy-coloured perception of dinosaurs.
Or even better... have it SEEM like another planet, with somewhat cutesy animals, that actually turn out to be as dangerous as regular/dinosaur animals.
And eventually have a twist ending where it's shown this WASN'T another planet; but this one in the past.

(Heh... I see you changed the thread title. Oops; got derailed from the original subject again, didn't it? That seems to happen a lot...)

 

[Cerez]

Sounds interesting.
Some story where the main characters are dropped into the past and have to survive.

Or perhaps set it on another planet; just to disconnect it from people's fantasy-coloured perception of dinosaurs.
Or even better... have it SEEM like another planet, with somewhat cutesy animals, that actually turn out to be as dangerous as regular/dinosaur animals.
And eventually have a twist ending where it's shown this WASN'T another planet; but this one in the past.

Ala Planet of the Apes. I like.

We have 12 pairs of ribs, don't we?

Dunno. 7 pairs? 14 total.
Can't say I ever cared...

Human beings generally have anywhere from 11 to 13 pairs of (22-26) ribs. That's the usual natural range. But in school, everyone is taught that people have 12 pairs of (24) ribs, without exception, and that this is the healthy/normal number -- to the point that people completely take it for granted, and having less or more generally sounds absurd to their imagination, and hard to believe.

The only people who know the truth are some medical students in exceptional circumstances, studying the human anatomy for medical practice.

Why?! Is it so hard to teach the truth? The reason human society does this is to normalise the average, to make people oblivious to the natural spectrum, to serve its own purpose in controlling people. We are taught half-truths and lies so that our imagination and intuitive understanding will be molded into what society needs us to behave like.

The greatest cost to this is that we become imbalanced in our thinking. If what you know (for sure) is that people always have a fixed number of ribs and that number is the normal average, your understanding of nature and everything else in life will be shaped similarly as well, applying the same limited/flawed thinking/pattern to it.

So it's not just about the number of ribs themselves -- it's about a whole lot more.

For humankind, what's real and natural becomes absurd, and what's imagined becomes reality. We (deliberately) deceive ourselves.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Hey @Cerez, have you been writing?
This lengthy article about some version of realism of dinosaurs seems to have been posted yesterday:
How to Outrun a Dinosaur | WIRED

Ala Planet of the Apes. I like.

Hehe; true!
As I was thinking of that idea, it was starting to feel more and more familiar.
And you're right; that's the link!

Human beings generally have anywhere from 11 to 13 pairs of (22-26) ribs. That's the usual natural range. But in school, everyone is taught that people have 12 pairs of (24) ribs, without exception, and that this is the healthy/normal number -- to the point that people completely take it for granted, and having less or more generally sounds absurd to their imagination, and hard to believe.

School must've done a terrible job with me there.
Clearly I was WAY off!

I do recall hearing some controversy about it before.
Not sure if it was from you a while back; or somewhere else altogether.

But yep, it seems as if a "normal distribution curve" is often simplified in people's minds to become a "mathematical mode".
Where the most often-appearing number becomes the ONLY number.

Might just be the natural effect of the human brain to compress and condense information.
That happens a lot; and it's completely unconscious.

It can also erase relevant context.
Sometimes jumble around the chronology of events too.
Anything can and does happen.

 

[Cerez]

Hey @Cerez, have you been writing?
This lengthy article about some version of realism of dinosaurs seems to have been posted yesterday:
How to Outrun a Dinosaur | WIRED

Apparently dinosaur realism is a hot topic now.

Fascinating article!

Hehe; true!
As I was thinking of that idea, it was starting to feel more and more familiar.
And you're right; that's the link!

But yep, it seems as if a "normal distribution curve" is often simplified in people's minds to become a "mathematical mode".
Where the most often-appearing number becomes the ONLY number.

Might just be the natural effect of the human brain to compress and condense information.
That happens a lot; and it's completely unconscious.

It can also erase relevant context.
Sometimes jumble around the chronology of events too.
Anything can and does happen.

True, but this is far from being the only example where people actively screw themselves over using their own imagination. And a teacher should know better than to teach facts from distant memory: they have preparations for class, reference material, and a curriculum to adhere to.

Furthermore, note how even Wikipedia completely avoids teaching the full truth:

"A typical human rib cage consists of 24 ribs in 12 pairs, the sternum and xiphoid process, the costal cartilages, and the 12 thoracic vertebrae."

(Note the use of the word "typical". Typical as to what? It's certainly not to natural occurence. It's to accepted/encouraged social norms.)

To be clear, I'm not saying that imagination is a bad thing, just that it can be used in ways that do not serve the user and their environment well at all. It can be used in such a way as to imbalance the person, and to create false beliefs -- especially when it comes to recurring, socially accepted norms.

To quote Michael Ende's scary words in The Neverending Story:

"When it comes to controlling human beings there is no better instrument than lies. Because, you see, humans live by beliefs. And beliefs can be manipulated."

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Apparently dinosaur realism is a hot topic now.

Looks that way!

True, but this is far from being the only example where people actively screw themselves over using their own imagination.

It's not even "imagination" that I referred to.
It's pure compression; of the NOT lossless kind.

Furthermore, note how even Wikipedia completely avoids teaching the full truth:

"A typical human rib cage consists of 24 ribs in 12 pairs, the sternum and xiphoid process, the costal cartilages, and the 12 thoracic vertebrae."

(Note the use of the word "typical". Typical as to what? It's certainly not to natural occurence. It's to accepted/encouraged social norms.)

The way I read that, "typical" means "most often occurring".
And it may just be true that most humans do indeed have 24.

The use of the word "typical" does acknowledge that there can be exceptions.

I honestly doubt that "accepted/encouraged social norms" have much to say about the number of ribs.
If discrimination is going to occur; surely it won't be because of that?
It cannot be seen or observed in any way.

To be clear, I'm not saying that imagination is a bad thing, just that it can be used in ways that do not serve the user and their environment well at all. It can be used in such a way as to imbalance the person, and to create false beliefs -- especially when it comes to recurring, socially accepted norms.

Insert religion, which is thoroughly socially accepted.
In the way that a LACK thereof often is NOT socially accepted.

And yet... there are so many different beliefs; mutually exclusive; with contradictions within them.
So even if there IS truth in them (which by definition nobody can know for sure), there MUST be pure imagination and false beliefs in there too.

"When it comes to controlling human beings there is no better instrument than lies. Because, you see, humans live by beliefs. And beliefs can be manipulated."

Scary indeed.
And it seems that to a substantial extent, lies ARE socially accepted; and sometimes encouraged.
Isn't gaslighting fun?
I wonder how often people do that unconsciously.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

On the subject of imagination:
Garfield’s 1989 Week Of Existential Horror | Cracked.com

CREEE-PY!!

 

[Cerez]

Dinosaur-like and size animals existed even around 1280 on Earth, such as the Moa (Dinornis) in New Zealand -- which was subsequently completely killed off by people hunting them for food, building, and tool-making:

Its natural predator before that was a massive eagle, called Haast's eagle:

 

[The Nameless Pirate]

This is awesome!
Not that they got extinct obviously, but 1280 is so close to us!
It may seem far, but on the whole it is not.

Also have a look at this, the largest species of bird ever:
Elephant bird - Wikipedia

Why do humans have to ruin everything?

 

[Cerez]

Interesting -- I haven't heard of the elephant bird yet. It appears quite similar to the moa -- maybe they were related? (The relation to kiwis places them in common area of origin with the moa.)

Yep, a similar fate befell the dodo. The elephant bird, the moa, Haast's eagle, the dodo, the Tasmanian tiger: they were all made extinct by us (people). Our not respecting nature's balance and taking selfishly away without end has had dire consequences (both for those animal species and, ultimately, for us).

 

[The Nameless Pirate]

Interesting -- I haven't heard of the elephant bird yet. It appears quite similar to the moa -- maybe they were related? (The relation to kiwis places them in common area of origin with the moa.)

Possibly.

Yep, a similar fate befell the dodo. The elephant bird, the moa, Haast's eagle, the dodo, the Tasmanian tiger: they were all made extinct by us (people). Our not respecting nature's balance and taking selfishly away without end has had dire consequences (both for those animal species and, ultimately, for us).

Speaking of the Tasmanian tiger, I found this video on them:

A shame really, if only we could reverse such things.

 

[Cerez]

The kiwis were seriously endangered, recently, too. Human deforestation and urbanisation has destroyed and reduced their habitat to the point of them dying out. After heavy conservation efforts for many decades by nature preservation teams the kiwis are now still present in small numbers and confined natural national parks/areas, but they are no longer at the point of extinction.

And all this effort mostly because the kiwis have become a cultural icon of New Zealand -- because they have cultural and tourism value, not because people really care about a fellow animal that shares this world with us.

And Tasmanian devils are also seriously endangered -- with heavy conseration efforts made to save them. Once again, because we deprived them of their natural habitat.

 

[The Nameless Pirate]

The kiwis were seriously endangered, recently, too. Human deforestation and urbanisation has destroyed and reduced their habitat to the point of them dying out. After heavy conservation efforts for many decades by nature preservation teams the kiwis are now still present in small numbers and confined natural national parks/areas, but they are no longer at the point of extinction.

And all this effort mostly because the kiwis have become a cultural icon of New Zealand -- because they have cultural and tourism value, not because people really care about a fellow animal that shares this world with us.

If it brings money, then you can bet that something will be done to protect it.
If not, then aside from volunteers, the animal is doomed.

It's like the police stopping the black lives matter movement, but not football matches.

Still at least even if it is done for profit some animals, are saved.

And Tasmanian devils are also seriously endangered -- with heavy conseration efforts made to save them. Once again, because we deprived them of their natural habitat.

By the way, Tasmanian devils must be the worst kind of devil I have seen.

I mean just look at them!

 

[Cerez]

By the way, Tasmanian devils must be the worst kind of devil I have seen.

I mean just look at them!

They're not devils because of the way they look (minus the red and black colouring). They're devils because of the way they sound! You wouldn't believe the loud and scary sounds that come out of such a small animal when they're rivaling each other or safeguarding/defending their territory.

Imagine peacefully walking around at night and you hear something like this coming from the bushes!

 

[The Nameless Pirate]

Yeah, on the video I had seen they must had been relatively calm, or the audio wasn't that good.

That is a scary sound!

Still look at a baby one:

 

[Cerez]

Still look at a baby one:

Even the adult ones are adorable! Especially when they're not fighting. They're like little dog-like things -- they remind me a little of jackals by their behaviour, but like a marsupial version of them. And they have a bit of Tasmanian tiger in them (with the peculiarly wide-opening snout/jaw and bare, marsupial tail).

I'm just saying this is why people named it a devil -- because when they didn't know what was making that frightening sound, their imagination got loose, and they thought it was a demon or the devil himself! It's more a reflection of us than them.

They and the Thylacine (Tasmanian tiger) were crucial to keep the small critter populations in check (hunting smaller animals) and cleaning up dead organic material in nature (scavenging, eating away carcasses) -- like wolves. But, unlike ravens, they can't survive by human-made roads -- they can't fly or run away fast enough from cars. And we destroyed their natural homes and habitat, and depleted their chance to find food and food sources.

The interesting thing about Australian marsupial animals is that, just like dinosaurs, they belong to an earlier era of natural development, but, unlike dinosaurs, they are still living with us today.

Australian marsupials are actually a less evolved version of mammals -- but looking at them and engaging with them you would not be able to tell. They are just as intelligent and able as today's wild mammals -- in fact in some ways more intelligent and much less afraid. I believe dinosaurs were much like that as well. So in studying marsupials, we get a little glimpse of what meeting dinosaurs would have felt like -- what dinosaurs would have behaved/been like.

A lot of the Tassie devil's communication is up-close physical contact, mouth-to-mouth, and biting. They actually use their jaw/teeth, biting the snout/face for communication. And you can see this if you watch carefully while they are sharing a meal in the last video. This is unlike any other animal on Earth (to this extent, as far as I know). It's unique to Tassie devils.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Why do humans have to ruin everything?

Because Independence Day (1996 film) - Wikipedia is not a dumb popcorn flick; it is a documentary.
And WE are the aliens!

And to return to the original title of this thread.
Here's the moon:

Dinosaur-like and size animals existed even around 1280 on Earth, such as the Moa (Dinornis) in New Zealand -- which was subsequently completely killed off by people hunting them for food, building, and tool-making:

Its natural predator before that was a massive eagle, called Haast's eagle:

Such cool animals!
And beautiful artwork there too.

Yep, a similar fate befell the dodo. The elephant bird, the moa, Haast's eagle, the dodo, the Tasmanian tiger: they were all made extinct by us (people). Our not respecting nature's balance and taking selfishly away without end has had dire consequences (both for those animal species and, ultimately, for us).

Probably "species going extinct" wasn't even a concept people could comprehend at the time.
I assume it must've seemed like the world's resources were in infinite supply back in the days.
But of course that is never true; and gets more UN-true in smaller eco-systems (like islands).
Which of course people who come from the mainland would have zero experience with.

A shame really, if only we could reverse such things.

Is there any DNA left?
If so, try the Jurassic Park approach.

And all this effort mostly because the kiwis have become a cultural icon of New Zealand -- because they have cultural and tourism value, not because people really care about a fellow animal that shares this world with us.

Any reason is better than no reason at all.

And Tasmanian devils are also seriously endangered -- with heavy conseration efforts made to save them.

If I read you correctly... that IS being done because people care then.
They aren't a cultural icon; are they?
Other than...

 

[The Nameless Pirate]

Even the adult ones are adorable! Especially when they're not fighting. They're like little dog-like things -- they remind me a little of jackals by their behaviour, but like a marsupial version of them. And they have a bit of Tasmanian tiger in them (with the peculiarly wide-opening snout/jaw and bare, marsupial tail).

Yep, they are cute.

You wouldn't want to mess with them, but they still are cute.

I'm just saying this is why people named it a devil -- because when they didn't know what was making that frightening sound, their imagination got loose, and they thought it was a demon or the devil himself! It's more a reflection of us than them.

True, if anything we are a devil for endangering them.

They and the Thylacine (Tasmanian tiger) were crucial to keep the small critter populations in check (hunting smaller animals) and cleaning up dead organic material in nature (scavenging, eating away carcasses) -- like wolves. But, unlike ravens, they can't survive by human-made roads -- they can't fly or run away fast enough from cars. And we destroyed their natural homes and habitat, and depleted their chance to find food and food sources.

Everything has it's place in nature.
We ruin this balance, but some animals adapt better than others.

So we need to help such animals to survive, because not everyone can adapt to our cities and roads.

The interesting thing about Australian marsupial animals is that, just like dinosaurs, they belong to an earlier era of natural development, but, unlike dinosaurs, they are still living with us today.

Australian marsupials are actually a less evolved version of mammals -- but looking at them and engaging with them you would not be able to tell. They are just as intelligent and able as today's wild mammals -- in fact in some ways more intelligent and much less afraid. I believe dinosaurs were much like that as well. So in studying marsupials, we get a little glimpse of what meeting dinosaurs would have felt like -- what dinosaurs would have behaved/been like.

Interesting, makes them even more magical!

A lot of the Tassie devil's communication is up-close physical contact, mouth-to-mouth, and biting. They actually use their jaw/teeth, biting the snout/face for communication. And you can see this if you watch carefully while they are sharing a meal in the last video. This is unlike any other animal on Earth (to this extent, as far as I know). It's unique to Tassie devils.

Yep, they are quite aggressive (at least when compared to other animals) when they are eating.

But when they are not, then they aren't that bad.

Because Independence Day (1996 film) - Wikipedia is not a dumb popcorn flick; it is a documentary.
And WE are the aliens!

Indeed, we are invaders, not from outer space; but does it make much difference really?

Probably "species going extinct" wasn't even a concept people could comprehend at the time.
I assume it must've seemed like the world's resources were in infinite supply back in the days.
But of course that is never true; and gets more UN-true in smaller eco-systems (like islands).
Which of course people who come from the mainland would have zero experience with.

True, I guess that some may knew about it, but the vast majority didn't.
And ignorance is dangerous, fatal in the animal's case.

Is there any DNA left?
If so, try the Jurassic Park approach.

Maybe in the fossils/eggs.

Where is my fedora and whip?
It's raiding time!

If I read you correctly... that IS being done because people care then.
They aren't a cultural icon; are they?
Other than...

Well the first time I learned of Tasmania was because of Taz.
So even if they are not to the level of the Kiwi, they still are iconic.

 

[Cerez]

Because Independence Day (1996 film) - Wikipedia is not a dumb popcorn flick; it is a documentary.
And WE are the aliens!

And to return to the original title of this thread.
Here's the moon:

"We came in peace for all mankind."

Interesting phrasing. Not all life on Earth, not all of nature, just all of man-kind.

Incidentally, what repels the martians in H. G. Wells' The War of the Worlds -- which this film was heavily inspired by -- is not all the might of human warfare, but common bacteria on planet Earth that their immune systems are not developed to fight!

We like to think that we are the strongest and most adaptable creature on the planet, but the simplest of organisms, bacteria, can actually defeat us -- and some of them can even survive a long time in the vacuum of space! Talk about the paradox of the "advanced"!

If I read you correctly... that IS being done because people care then.
They aren't a cultural icon; are they?
Other than...

Well the first time I learned of Tasmania was because of Taz.
So even if they are not to the level of the Kiwi, they still are iconic.

While the devil doesn't feature on Tasmania's coat of arms -- the now extinct Thylacine does -- the Tasmanian devil is the most well-known native Tasmanian animal in this day and age, so the same rule as with the kiwis applies. Unfortunately, most people only seem to care about what socially impacts them -- that seems to be the ongoing trend.

So we need to help such animals to survive, because not everyone can adapt to our cities and roads.

In fact, we've made our technology and environment so people-centred and specific that most animals are not able to survive and find their place in it. Very few animals manage, and we look down upon them for doing so: pigeons, rats, crows, etc. We see them as unclean, sewer creatures. That filth on them is our filth -- the filth of the urban environment we've created for ourselves.

I see even ravens succumb to getting run over by cars occasionally on the road in front of my home -- and they are most intelligent and adaptive birds!

Interesting, makes them even more magical!

They're quite special -- both in terms of study and in personal contact with them. I believe because we differ from them more than other animals (mammals), there's a sort-of instant bond that's forged because we are less instinctively afraid of each other. It's quite odd when I think about it, actually. I'm not sure why this happens, but Australian native animals are less afraid of people, more accepting of us, and more curious.

Yep, they are quite aggressive (at least when compared to other animals) when they are eating.

But when they are not, then they aren't that bad.

They appear aggressive to us, but actually if you watch carefully they are considerate to each other and sharing. The sudden pulling/tugging behaviour helps them cooperate in eating, as they all grip the food up-close to each other, and pull it apart with their strong jaws. So even though it appears they're fighting over the food, they're actually sharing a meal. At the end, when there is little left on the bone, they usually play a game of social power-play -- grabbing the remains for themselves and carrying them around to tease others with them. But this is after they've all had a good meal.

Their basic communication is a little more physical than ours, so little bites (that don't draw a lot of blood) don't count as something harmful among them. They count as warning signs in their communication, just like opening their mouth wide does. Their jaw plays a crucial part not only in feeding, but also in communication and self-defence.

In this video, I don't get why he's carrying the meal around, walking with it. I think he's doing it just for effect. This is completely unnatural and unnerving the devils -- not to mention putting them in danger of being injured/stepped on. They're clearly really hungry -- just put down the meat, and let them eat!

This is also why they're having a bigger fight over the food than usual -- because they're filled with adrenalin and on edge by the time they get to gather around it. Not to mention they're extremely hungry, and forced to be together by circumstances.

Poor devil who didn't get to eat.

This video saddens me. I hate it when people make a "dangerous" show of animals. I'd like to see animals do that to us, and see how we appreciate it!

People are imbalanced and cruel.

Maybe in the fossils/eggs.

Nope. Only frozen in ice -- you need organic tissue/material for DNA.

But didn't Jurassic Park teach us not to mess with nature? There's a good reason dinosaurs have evolved since and are no longer with us. It's not advisable to mess with nature's balance -- especially by utterly ignorant and imbalanced creatures such as us.

"What you call discovery, I call the rape of the natural world."

"Genetic power is the most awesome force the planet's ever seen, but you wield it like a kid that's found his dad's gun."

"Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should."

~ Dr. Ian Malcolm in 'Jurassic Park'

So much nostalgia! My childhood in a song.

I'm ready for adventure! You coming?!