Solved Rebalancing the Fighting System

[Hylie Pistof]

It looks that way when there are four of you and suddenly all of you are well under 50% HP.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I can imagine. So your concerns of them being overpowered are very much valid. Hopefully tomorrow's calculation effort will put them down to a more sensible level.
As I see it, if a weapon does multidmg, the total damage should be reduced. The total over several targets might still be considerable, but not on a single enemy.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Please find attached an Excel (2007) file showing my proposed changed gun stats.

The HP listed next to the minlevel is the HP characters should have at that level, so you can compare the average damage dealt with that value to see how useful the gun is.

The pirate pistol and blunderbuss are deliberately widely varying in their damage dealt. So they could be really good. Or not.

All grapeshot guns do comparably little damage, but have the advantage of doing so to multiple enemies.

The Short Pistol is now really not so good, but when you've got THREE of them, it's comparatively not so bad.

The multi-shot pistols were toned down so that their TOTAL damage doesn't outdo other guns in their minlevel range.

Comment, comments, I want comments!!!

 

[Hylie Pistof]

I disagree that the multi shot and pistol sets should be toned down. There would be no practical reason to carry them if the only useable ones are the large pistol set.

Where is everybody else?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I disagree that the multi shot and pistol sets should be toned down. There would be no practical reason to carry them if the only useable ones are the large pistol set.

That is not the idea. They DO all have some level of usefulness when their minlevel makes them appear.
I just don't think that if the Scrapper Pistol and Quad Barrel pistol have comparable minlevels, that the Quad Barrel one will basically be four times stronger.
More bullets, sure, but not as strong per bullet.

Compare those "Average Damage" values with the minlevel HP ones. As it stands, if you take the average between the minDmg and mamg of an excellent gun,
most weapons are not one-shot kills in the long run, but they can be occasionally if you do get up to that mamg.

There are two weapons that, on average, still are one-shot kills. Those are the Long Pistol and Brace of Short Pistols.
Well, technically not one-shot for the braces and multi-shot pistols, but at least one-reload kills.

The Short Pistol was toned down as you could regularly kill level 1 characters with it.
Now only the Fine and Excellent ones can do that, but only if you're up close and if you're proper lucky.

The Brace of Short Pistols is literally three Short Pistols. While one Short Pistol generally isn't lethal to a character of its minlevel of 1,
a Brace of Short Pistols IS on average lethal to a character of its minlevel of 5. So that makes it not quite a waste of time.

The average damage of the Double-Shot pistol (minlevel 9) is 104, which compares quite favourably to the unreliable Pirate Pistol (minlevel 7) with average damage of 86.

The Scrapper Pistol, on average, is ever-so-slightly better than the Quad-Barrel pistol, but due to its large difference between minDmg and mamg is not as reliable.

A Brace of Large Pistols, on average, can do more damage in its two shots than a musket in one shot.
So that is a very valid late game pistol as well.

As I see it, the braces aren't useless at all. Quite handy, in fact. They're just not excessively better than the other guns either.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

So this would be the code as per my proposal:

  //---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  // GUNS: ItemIndex                              picIndex        Price                Charges
  //        | gunID        modelID                  |  rare          | minDamage  Accuracy|Reload time                                    DisableWeaponsMod
  //        |  |            |            picTexture|  |  MinLevel  |    | maxDamage  |  |  | Nation          Sound              Ammo type    |      Available in period        Last period of availability
  //-------------|-------------|------------------|---|---|------|-----|-----|-----|------|--|---|--|------------------|-------------------|--------|---------------|----------------------------|-----------------
  n = InitGun(n,"pistol1", "pistol1",            6,  1, 0.50,  1,  150, 15.0, 25.0,    5, 1,  8, "", "OBJECTS\DUEL\pistol_small.wav",  "pb",    0,    PERIOD_EARLY_EXPLORERS,      PERIOD_NAPOLEONIC);  // Short Pistol//BB BASE FOR PISTOLS
  n = InitGun(n,"pistol2", "pistol2",            6,  2, 0.50,  4,  208, 40.0, 60.0,  40, 1, 12, "", "OBJECTS\DUEL\pistol_medium.wav", "pb",    0,    PERIOD_EARLY_EXPLORERS,      PERIOD_NAPOLEONIC);  // Long Pistol//BB small calibre(less dmg)+good accuracy
  n = InitGun(n,"pistol7", "pistol7",            9,  1, 0.20,  5,  357, 15.0, 25.0,    5, 3, 25, "", "OBJECTS\DUEL\pistol_small.wav",  "pb",    0,    PERIOD_EARLY_EXPLORERS,      PERIOD_NAPOLEONIC);  // Brace of Small Pistols (Alan Smithee)
  n = InitGun(n,"PiratesPistol","PiratesPistol", 22, 10, 0.20,  7,  554, 30.0, 80.0,  50, 1, 10, "", "OBJECTS\DUEL\pistol_medium.wav", "pb",    0,    PERIOD_THE_SPANISH_MAIN,    PERIOD_NAPOLEONIC);  // Pirates Pistol (SuperDurnius)
  n = InitGun(n,"pistol6", "pistol6",            6,  6, 0.05,  9,  1026, 30.0, 40.0,  55, 2, 20, "", "OBJECTS\DUEL\pistol_medium.wav", "pb",    0,    PERIOD_GOLDEN_AGE_OF_PIRACY, PERIOD_NAPOLEONIC);  // Double-Shot Pistol
  n = InitGun(n,"pistol3", "pistol3",            6,  3, 0.37,  11,  1402, 30.0, 60.0,  30, 1, 20, "", "OBJECTS\DUEL\pistol_grape.wav",  "pg",    0,    PERIOD_GOLDEN_AGE_OF_PIRACY, PERIOD_NAPOLEONIC);  // Grapeshot Pistol
  n = InitGun(n,"pistol8", "pistol8",            9,  3, 0.15,  13,  1260, 20.0, 40.0,  50, 3, 30, "", "OBJECTS\DUEL\pistol_medium.wav", "pb",    0,    PERIOD_EARLY_EXPLORERS,      PERIOD_NAPOLEONIC);  // Brace of Mid-size Pistols (Alan Smithee)
  n = InitGun(n,"pistol4", "pistol4",            6,  4, 0.05,  15,  2286, 20.0, 30.0,  60, 4, 35, "", "OBJECTS\DUEL\pistol_small.wav",  "pb",    0,    PERIOD_REVOLUTIONS,          PERIOD_NAPOLEONIC);  // Quad-Barrel Pistol
  n = InitGun(n,"pistol5", "pistol5",            6,  5, 0.10,  16,  2653, 50.0,150.0,  70, 1, 14, "", "OBJECTS\DUEL\pistol_big.wav",    "pb",    0,    PERIOD_GOLDEN_AGE_OF_PIRACY, PERIOD_NAPOLEONIC);  // Scrapper Pistol
  n = InitGun(n,"pistolmtoon", "musketoon_back",  8,  9, 0.08,  17,  2968, 75.0,125.0,  60, 1, 24, "", "OBJECTS\DUEL\pistol_mtoon.wav",  "pg2",    1,    PERIOD_GOLDEN_AGE_OF_PIRACY, PERIOD_NAPOLEONIC);  // JRH: model was Musketoon
  n = InitGun(n,"pistol9", "pistol9",            9,  2, 0.10,  18,  3620, 60.0, 80.0,  70, 2, 25, "", "OBJECTS\DUEL\pistol_big.wav",    "pb",    0,    PERIOD_GOLDEN_AGE_OF_PIRACY, PERIOD_NAPOLEONIC);  // Brace of Large Pistols (Alan Smithee)
  n = InitGun(n,"pistolmket",  "musket_back",    8, 10, 0.05,  20,  3245,150.0,250.0,  80, 1, 30, "", "OBJECTS\DUEL\pistol_musket.wav", "mb",    1,    PERIOD_GOLDEN_AGE_OF_PIRACY, PERIOD_NAPOLEONIC);  // JRH: model was Musket
  n = InitGun(n,"pistol10", "pistol10",        "JD",  5, 0.02,  99,  6572, 60.0, 90.0,  60, 2,  1, "", "OBJECTS\DUEL\pistol_big.wav",    "mb",    1,    PERIOD_EARLY_EXPLORERS,      PERIOD_NAPOLEONIC);  // Pump Shotgun SLiB  LDH fix sound error
  //---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And attached for testing. Extract to PROGRAM\ITEMS .

It could be that the Grapeshot Pistol will still appear quite a lot; I didn't touch those rarity values just yet.

Anyway, still hoping for some further comments on this. More comments = better results.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

And how about making all soldiers a fair bit stronger to begin with? They should be a THREAT, no?
Extract attached to PROGRAM\Characters . This will give them over 200 HP and all fencing and pistol abilities.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

And how about making all soldiers a fair bit stronger to begin with? They should be a THREAT, no?
Extract attached to PROGRAM\Characters . This will give them over 200 HP and all fencing and pistol abilities.

That makes them impossible to beat for the first 15 levels or more.

 

[Skyworm]

Oh well then ... comments!

I think my own thoughts of usefulness of firearms is different from what I have read heree.

1) I do not like any weapon that hits more then one target.
Reasons are:
- if I fire this in a group of enemies, all enemies hit will try to kill me, resulting in very sudden death. I prefer any enemy goping after another officer of my group instead.
- if I fire this in a tow (when attacked by an enemy), there is a high chance to hit a civilian or a nearby guard, thus resulting in more enemies and in less surviavability on my side

2) I don't value multiple shots much. They are at best comfortable, but not really useful. In the averagy fight, I am happy when there is time enough to fire once before engaged in melee. And once melee begun, there is not much use in firing.

Thus, the best firearm in my opinion is one that almost gueranteed hits, and does a guaranteed high damage with that one shot. Having more than one shot is nice, but doesn't really count.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

There is that. Firing in town is not a good idea, so the only fighting I do there is the random assassins and town guards where we are facing a wall.
I am carrying the grapeshot pistol and half my officers are too. The others are carrying the scrapper pistol. The grapeshot pistol only seems to work well in caves and dungeons where the opponents are packed closely together. In the jungle it does not seem to do much. Methinks in town it is only good for getting the town folk mad who will then slaughter us all.
When I get a high enough level to use the gun sets I find the large 2 gun set best. The two barrel pistol is also pretty good. I can usually get 2 shots off before switching to the sword.

While I disagree about averaging out the 2 and 3 pistol sets I tried this any way. It appears that a new game is needed as I saw no change.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

That makes them impossible to beat for the first 15 levels or more.

They are equivalent of level 20 soldiers now with full skills. We could tone that down if you feel it prudent.
I'm just thinking... since they are soldiers, you shouldn't be able to beat them. Especially not as easily as is the case now.

Weren't you using the soldiers as a kind-of easy way of getting good weapons in the early game? That is more of a cheat than proper gamebalancing, right?
Especially in the later periods, all soldiers have muskets. So unless we make them really strong, you'd have access to the now-best gun in the game right at the beginning.

It appears that a new game is needed as I saw no change.

Just performing a Reinit with F11 should work.

While I disagree about averaging out the 2 and 3 pistol sets I tried this any way.

The averages I calculated are for every pistol, not just the multi-shot ones.
I just don't think that a four-shot pistol should literally be four times as good as a single-shot pistol. Not even twice as good.
If they're both of equal minlevel, they should be just about equally good. Personal preference or the situation you find yourself in should be the reason for the choice,
not one weapon being positively much better than another.

Of course those values I came up with are just a thought to get us started. We can change everything we want; as long as we can figure out what to change it to.
If anyone else wants to try their hand at rebalancing, that would be most welcome. Especially if it is someone who actually plays the game. As in: NOT me!

1) I do not like any weapon that hits more then one target.
Reasons are:
- if I fire this in a group of enemies, all enemies hit will try to kill me, resulting in very sudden death. I prefer any enemy goping after another officer of my group instead.
- if I fire this in a tow (when attacked by an enemy), there is a high chance to hit a civilian or a nearby guard, thus resulting in more enemies and in less surviavability on my side

Perfectly valid points, of course. Though they might come in handy in close-quarter situations with a lot of enemies grouped close together.
I'd like to have a weapon system where you might choose a different gun based on the situation you find yourself in.

2) I don't value multiple shots much. They are at best comfortable, but not really useful. In the averagy fight, I am happy when there is time enough to fire once before engaged in melee. And once melee begun, there is not much use in firing.

True again. I never cared much for them either. Always had a soft spot for the Scrapper Pistol (and Solingen Rapier).
Though I can see a use for them when there is a mob of enemies coming at you and you want to take down their HP to a more manageable level before they reach you and your officers.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

What is the level of average town folk? They are very tuff to beat and I hardly ever survive when one of my officers gets them mad at us.

Uh yah, they were too easy before, but we WILL find a way. Witness this Freedom Fry with a Solingen rapier and musket. And I DID have to start a new game, so this is at level 3 or 4. Not that it matters as the muskets quit working after a bit.


My opinion on the multi barrel pistols is that the two barrel pistol should have about the same stats as the long pistol, with maybe a little less accuracy. The 4 barrel pistol should be a little bit better than the short pistol. This is based on looking at the models. The 2 barrel has long barrels and the 4 barrel has short barrels.

 

[Armada]

Especially in the later periods, all soldiers have muskets. So unless we make them really strong, you'd have access to the now-best gun in the game right at the beginning.

In the last game I played for Beta 2.4, I managed to gather ten muskets from boardings alone in the Sea Hawk storyline.
I was sorely tempted to sell them for a fortune, but I obsessively hoard things like these for a rainy day. And for the weapons locker.
I can't remember what level I was at, but this was only after a few hours of gameplay (real time).

 

[Baste]

This might be a bit experimental, but I think it works. I have made changes to the LAi_fightparams and LAi_events files that make EXP calculation take critical damage into account for both melee and ranged weapons, and make it so one gets EXP from using fists.

About the difficulty, maybe this should be removed:

if(sti(attack.index) == GetMainCharacterIndex()) dmg *= (1.45 - 0.15*GetDifficulty()); // NK Diff Mod
    else { if(sti(enemy.index) == GetMainCharacterIndex()) { dmg *= (0.85 + 0.15*GetDifficulty()); } } // NK Diff Mod

This is what makes that the higher the difficulty the more damage enemies do to the player and the less damage the player does to enemies. Even at the same level, this means that even if the player and an enemy have equal Melee skill and weapons the enemy still has an advantage. With higher difficulty enemies already are at higher levels, with more HP and higher Melee skill, so should they also do extra damage and take less damage?

Anyone seen this working lately?
View attachment 10980
As far as I can tell, that hasn't been working since at least some time 2008 in Build 14 Alpha 8, possibly longer.

It reloads? It has always reloaded for me. If I use the setting that makes it reload when the melee weapon is sheated it will reload then, otherwise it will reload regardless.

About the guns, I'm not familiar with the weapons in the Build Mod, so I don't know what would be good values to set them to.

Also this:

HP points

That would be "hit point points".

 

[Pieter Boelen]

What is the level of average town folk? They are very tuff to beat and I hardly ever survive when one of my officers gets them mad at us.

REAL town folk, aka. the ones you can ask for directions and don't have weapons, are pretty much always level 1.
The other type are randomly generated and can be anywhere from really weak to really strong. You can use the [O]-key when facing them to see their level and stats.

Uh yah, they were too easy before, but we WILL find a way. Witness this Freedom Fry with a Solingen rapier and musket. And I DID have to start a new game, so this is at level 3 or 4. Not that it matters as the muskets quit working after a bit.

And that is with my enhanced town guards? Good job! But at least you had to put in some effort this time, right?

My opinion on the multi barrel pistols is that the two barrel pistol should have about the same stats as the long pistol, with maybe a little less accuracy.

So at the moment I have the Long Pistol with less accuracy than the Double-Shot with the latter doing less damage. Propose setting the Double-Shot to mamg = 50 instead of 40.
That will give it 10 less per shot compared to the Long Pistol, but with two shots instead of one, that still gives you an advantage.
Then:
Long Pistol to 50% accuracy
Double-Shot Pistol to 40% accuracy
Pirate Pistol to 60% accuracy (because otherwise the Long Pistol and Pirate Pistol are the same)

The 4 barrel pistol should be a little bit better than the short pistol. This is based on looking at the models. The 2 barrel has long barrels and the 4 barrel has short barrels.

At the moment I've got it dealing 5 more HP than the Short Pistol, but be a lot more accurate: 40% vs. 5% because I toned the Short Pistol way down.

I think the rarity values are going to need some work as well. Which weapons do you reckon and should be common and which ones not so much?
The rarity on the Grapeshot Pistol should definitely be toned down. Then I reckon any multi-shot gun should be less common than most single-shot ones.
Musket and musketoon probably should be fairly common once they appear in the game. Quad-Barrel should be VERY rare.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

In the last game I played for Beta 2.4, I managed to gather ten muskets from boardings alone in the Sea Hawk storyline.
I was sorely tempted to sell them for a fortune, but I obsessively hoard things like these for a rainy day. And for the weapons locker.
I can't remember what level I was at, but this was only after a few hours of gameplay (real time).

Wow, that's a big quick. We've now got them set to minlevel = 20, so they shouldn't be showing up that early.

This might be a bit experimental, but I think it works. I have made changes to the LAi_fightparams and LAi_events files that make EXP calculation take critical damage into account for both melee and ranged weapons, and make it so one gets EXP from using fists.

Sounds good! I wonder if people ever use their fists.

This might be a bit experimental, but I think it works. I have made changes to the LAi_fightparams and LAi_events files that make EXP calculation take critical damage into account for both melee and ranged weapons, and make it so one gets EXP from using fists.

About the difficulty, maybe this should be removed:

if(sti(attack.index) == GetMainCharacterIndex()) dmg *= (1.45 - 0.15*GetDifficulty()); // NK Diff Mod
    else { if(sti(enemy.index) == GetMainCharacterIndex()) { dmg *= (0.85 + 0.15*GetDifficulty()); } } // NK Diff Mod

This is what makes that the higher the difficulty the more damage enemies do to the player and the less damage the player does to enemies. Even at the same level, this means that even if the player and an enemy have equal Melee skill and weapons the enemy still has an advantage. With higher difficulty enemies already are at higher levels, with more HP and higher Melee skill, so should they also do extra damage and take less damage?

Indeed that sounds more like a cheat on the part of the enemies to me. This is what that works out to:

        Apprentice    Journeyman    Adventurer    Swashbuckler
Player        1,3            1,15        1            0,85
Enemy        1            1,15        1,3            1,45

So player always has an advantage on Apprentice and fights are evenly matched on Journeyman. On Swashbuckler, enemies have an almost 50% advantage.
Edit: Removing this would therefore make Apprentice harder.

It reloads? It has always reloaded for me. If I use the setting that makes it reload when the melee weapon is sheated it will reload then, otherwise it will reload regardless.

It never stopped reloading. But it wouldn't show the progress in Build 14. So the blue bar would be completely empty, until the gun is fully reloaded, when it immediately turns to full.

That would be "hit point points".

Uhm. Yes. Oops.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

I was at level 4 and had just got a poisoned throwing knife. So I used it. Then sauntered over and looted the corpse. I have three of them now. I liked it better before because fighting them helped out my melee score.
In the standard story line there is this part where you need to kill 7-9 French soldiers before you can steal a frigate. I have NO idea how to do that now.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I was at level 4 and had just got a poisoned throwing knife. So I used it. Then sauntered over and looted the corpse. I have three of them now.

Hmm... Well, that pretty much IS the point of those special weapons. At least they're getting a use.

I liked it better before because fighting them helped out my melee score.

Baste has been making some code changes to make it easier to gain melee skill.

In the standard story line there is this part where you need to kill 7-9 French soldiers before you can steal a frigate. I have NO idea how to do that now.

Hmm... not sure if my "level 20" effect will apply to them or not. But level 1 soldiers do seem very underpowered, don't you think?

 

[Hylie Pistof]

They were too easy although early on they could still kill me. Now I don't dare attack them. Well I did dare.... Shot him with the musket, sliced him with the Nic Sharp excellent sabre twice, then set up a block and he killed me with one stroke anyway.
Maybe the ether bottle will get more use now.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Let me know if you feel they should be made a little bit less formidable; that can be arranged.

Any further thoughts on gun stats and difficulty levels?