Needs Testing Nobs and Nobility

[Grey Roger]

Naval officers only get estates from rank 7 onwards, while privateers get estates from their first promotion. This seens wrong to me; partly for game balance as privateers already get benefits such as being able to keep any ship they capture and being able to plunder colonies instead of raising their nation's flag. And partly for realism - why would a common oik get land along with a low promotion probably earned by pocketing a few easy merchants? So in this mod, only landed gentry, i.e. rank 7 and higher, get land.

Question: should you get more than the usual allowance at rank 7 to make up for the land you didn't get at ranks 1 to 6? If so, how much? (Adding together 1 up to 7 gives 28, or four times as much land, perhaps too much for an initial estate?)

 

[Grey Roger]

At rank 7, British characters get the honorific prefix "Sir". Females are "Lady", which is wrong, at least in modern use. "Lady" is the wife of a "Sir"; a woman who earns her own knighthood is "Dame".

At rank 10 in this mod, you become "Lord" instead of "Sir". (Or "Lady" instead of "Dame"). Partly because of Lord (not Sir) Horatio Nelson, and partly because the Earl of Edrington tells Hornblower to call him "milord".

So much for Britain. Other nations can have honorific prefixes at rank 7 too. For France, "Chevalier" for both male and female - but not in "Napoleonic" period! For Spain, "Don" or "Doña"; for Portugal, "Dom" or "Dona". America doesn't use such prefixes; neither does Holland as far as I know.
(@Pieter Boelen?) And I have no idea about Sweden. (@Jack Rackham?)

A privateer with multiple LoM's who earns rank 7 with a second nation does not have the prefix replaced. If you earn rank 7 with Portugal, you are "Dom"; if you then earn rank 7 with Britain as well, you are still "Dom".

But if you lose a LoM on bad terms, you lose the honorific prefix along with your rank and land!

 

[Grey Roger]

Function "GetMyFullName" has been overhauled. If you have an honorific prefix, noble titles - but not naval ranks - go to the end of your name. At rank 7, if you have a prefix of the same nation, the noble title does not appear at all as it is implied by the prefix. For example:
Commodore Sir Edward Pellew (rank 7 naval)
Dame Danielle Greene (rank 7 privateer)
Sir Nathaniel Hawk, Baronet (rank 8 privateer)
Don Charles Ardent, Knight (multi LoM privateer, earned rank 7 with Spain first and got the prefix "Don", then earned rank 7 with Britain and is currently flying British colours).

 

[Jack Rackham]

Sweden have just a few nobility grades.

Hertig/Hertiginna only members of the royal family (duke)
Greve/grevinna (earl/count)
Friherre/Friherrinna Male: Baron when spoken to (baron)
untitled nobility no special title when spoken to

 

[Grey Roger]

Are those prefixes like "Sir", or rank titles like "Knight"?

Prefixes like "Sir" are handled in "NK.c", while rank titles like "Knight" are set in "nations_init.c".

 

[Jack Rackham]

Guess it's "Sir".

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Naval officers only get estates from rank 7 onwards, while privateers get estates from their first promotion. This seens wrong to me; partly for game balance as privateers already get benefits such as being able to keep any ship they capture and being able to plunder colonies instead of raising their nation's flag. And partly for realism - why would a common oik get land along with a low promotion probably earned by pocketing a few easy merchants? So in this mod, only landed gentry, i.e. rank 7 and higher, get land.

Indeed not quite fair; that's true.

Doesn't that make promotions for Privateers on the first levels a bit useless though?
As it is, Naval Officers don't get land at the low ranks; but they do get new ships where Privateers don't.
I figured the land was more a "bonus" for them; while for Privateers it's kind-of the whole point.

I still find it a shame that land barely serves a purpose anyway.
It's just a number. That gives Wealth. Which isn't really used for much of anything.
Except to calculate Fame. Which, again, isn't really used for much of anything.

America doesn't use such prefixes; neither does Holland as far as I know.
(@Pieter Boelen?)

None that spring to mind, at least...

Function "GetMyFullName" has been overhauled. If you have an honorific prefix, noble titles - but not naval ranks - go to the end of your name. At rank 7, if you have a prefix of the same nation, the noble title does not appear at all as it is implied by the prefix. For example:
Commodore Sir Edward Pellew (rank 7 naval)
Dame Danielle Greene (rank 7 privateer)
Sir Nathaniel Hawk, Baronet (rank 8 privateer)
Don Charles Ardent, Knight (multi LoM privateer, earned rank 7 with Spain first and got the prefix "Don", then earned rank 7 with Britain and is currently flying British colours).

Now THAT is cool!

 

[Grey Roger]

Doesn't that make promotions for Privateers on the first levels a bit useless though?

The main purpose of ranks 1-6 is to get you to rank 7. Also, you may be introduced to governors' nieces - which can now lead to a quest. And you may be able to buy ships if you can't be bothered to capture them.

I still find it a shame that land barely serves a purpose anyway.
It's just a number. That gives Wealth. Which isn't really used for much of anything.

What else would it do? If you retire from the sea to tend your estate, the game is over. Money from land goes into your general money and, especially when you have a lot of land, can help pay your expenses.

Any thoughts on extra land at level 7 to make up for none at levels 1-6?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

The main purpose of ranks 1-6 is to get you to rank 7.

Begs the question: would the players have that sort of patience?

Also, you may be introduced to governors' nieces

True.
Which, again, used to serve VERY little purpose indeed.

which can now lead to a quest.

UNTIL NOW!

Hope some further building could be done on these relations.
If I recall, there was originally an intention that your wife could give you rumours about random high-reward quests.
Thinking about it now; perhaps it could be as simple as letting her generate any sort of the already-existing random quests.
But with a guaranteed higher pay-out.
A bit like the Antigua Portadmiral?

       case "convoy2":
           string iDay, iMonth;
           iDay = environment.date.day;
           iMonth = environment.date.month;
           string lastspeak_date = iday + " " + iMonth;
           npchar.work = lastspeak_date;

           if (GetCompanionIndex(pchar,1) != -1 && GetCompanionIndex(pchar,2) != -1 && GetCompanionIndex(pchar,3) != -1)
           {
               dialog.text = DLG_TEXT[8];
               link.l1 = DLG_TEXT[9];
               link.l1.go = "Exit";
           }
           else
           {
               if (CheckQuestAttribute("generate_convoy_quest_progress", "begin"))
               {
                   dialog.text = DLG_TEXT[10];
                   link.l1 = DLG_TEXT[11];
                   link.l1.go = "Exit";
               }
               else
               {
                   dialog.text = DLG_TEXT[12]+pchar.lastname+DLG_TEXT[13];
                   link.l1 = DLG_TEXT[14];
                   link.l1.go = "Exit";
                   ChangeRMRelation(pchar, sti(NPChar.nation), 3.0)
                   pchar.quest.generate_convoy_quest.destination = "Conceicao";
                   AddDialogExitQuest("prepare_for_convoy_quest");
               }
           }
       break;

If I understand correctly, in Sid Meier's Pirates she could lead you to find the Spanish Treasure Fleet.

And you may be able to buy ships if you can't be bothered to capture them.

Ah, true. It does unlock higher levels ships for purchase.
So there's at least something.

What else would it do? If you retire from the sea to tend your estate, the game is over.

Unless... you can tend to the estate once in a while; while still going out sailing at times too.
But that gets close to the BuildingSet functionality. And the (lack of) colony management.

Come to think of it now...
What if certain BuildingSet functionality is locked behind certain amounts of land owned?

Might not be such a good idea as I suspect hardly anyone ever uses that feature at all.
But if the promotion feature could be adapted to advertise it; and encourage its use...?

Combining the two ideas; what if having certain buildings built allows you to boast about them to your romantic interests?
Then you could use the land to build the buildings; use those to get the girl; and then unlock your quest.

(Which quest was it again; by the way? Had a quick look on the Wiki just now and didn't spot it being mentioned there. I feel like I'm not paying proper attention...)

Any thoughts on extra land at level 7 to make up for none at levels 1-6?

Depends a bit on how the balancing of the game feels.
I can't really comment on that; but I do recall the late game getting a bit boring because things get too easy; with too much money and not enough to do.
So how would this affect it?

 

[Homo eructus]

What else would it do? If you retire from the sea to tend your estate, the game is over. Money from land goes into your general money and, especially when you have a lot of land, can help pay your expenses.

Now, this might be a dumb idea, but I was thinking maybe the land can produce people? When you have to refill the crew of one or several large ships, you often find there are not enough men in the tavern. Maybe you could ask an officer to send for men from your estate to be present at a port of your choice when you next make port there. The more land you have the more men you can ask for, up to several hundreds. You pay some money in advance for their travel and upkeep expenses and maybe your estate income decreases temporarily because you're taking workers away from the fields. If you take too long to reach the agreed meeting point, they wander off back to their homes and you lose the advance payment.

But to make it useful, maybe overall crew turnup in the taverns aswell as number of recruitable enemy crew after a boarding ought to be reduced, and I don't know whether that would screw over players who haven't got land yet (maybe a cap to recruitment numbers so they can still man medium ships with ease but struggle with big ships and fleets).

Land could also produce trading goods, which seems perhaps the more logical approach, but to make a suitably deep system for that and make it play ball with the trade system would probably be a nightmare.

Feel free to disregard all this entirely, just thinking out loud.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Now, this might be a dumb idea, but I was thinking maybe the land can produce people? When you have to refill the crew of one or several large ships, you often find there are not enough men in the tavern. Maybe you could ask an officer to send for men from your estate to be present at a port of your choice when you next make port there. The more land you have the more men you can ask for, up to several hundreds. You pay some money in advance for their travel and upkeep expenses and maybe your estate income decreases temporarily because you're taking workers away from the fields. If you take too long to reach the agreed meeting point, they wander off back to their homes and you lose the advance payment.

But to make it useful, maybe overall crew turnup in the taverns aswell as number of recruitable enemy crew after a boarding ought to be reduced, and I don't know whether that would screw over players who haven't got land yet (maybe a cap to recruitment numbers so they can still man medium ships with ease but struggle with big ships and fleets).

Land could also produce trading goods, which seems perhaps the more logical approach, but to make a suitably deep system for that and make it play ball with the trade system would probably be a nightmare.

Feel free to disregard all this entirely, just thinking out loud.

Certainly NOT dumb!
I quite like the sound of it.
You've got your mind in the right spot, I think.

 

[Grey Roger]

@Homo eructus: the Spanish level 7 title has now been translated to "Hidalgo", while the level 8 title fails to translate to "Caballero" because the Spanish word "Baronet" is identical to the English word, which is translated earlier in "common.ini" to "Baronet" so that takes precedence.

According to the Wikipedia comparison table of titles by language:
Imperial, royal and noble ranks - Wikipedia
"Hidalgo" is the equivalent to English "Esquire", a courtesy "title" for a gentleman without a title. The Spanish equivalent of "Knight" is "Caballero", and the Spanish equivalent of English "Baronet" is "Baronet".

If "Hidalgo" is indeed the Spanish equivalent to "Knight", should then the Portuguese version be "Fidalgo"?

 

[Homo eructus]

Yes, Hidalgo is roughly equivlaent to Esquire and Caballero is the same as Knight. Baronet translates as Baronet because that title doesn't really exist in Spain as far as I know (in fact I think it's exclusive to the British Crown), so it wouldn't be too bad to change it to Caballero and leave Hidalgo as the lower title, even if they don't absolutely match with the other nations.

That said Hidalgo and Caballero don't really go in the same scale, there were caballeros who weren't hidalgos and viceversa. At least in origin, hidalgo (from "hijo de algo", literally "son of something") meant old hereditary nobility, precisely to differentiate themselves from new knights and nobles created by the king. But later hidalgos could also be made in the same way, so the distinctions blur a little and neither of them is clearly superior or inferior to the other in hierarchy.

The same could probably be argued for Portugal with Fidalgo and Cavaleiro, I think.

 

[Grey Roger]

Baronet certainly exists in Spain, and in other countries, according to that Wikipedia title list - someone between a knight and a full baron. Other countries' equivalents to "knight" basically mean "horseman", e.g. French "chevalier", Dutch "ridder" - and Spanish "caballero".

If you really want the Spanish level 8 title to be "Caballero", I'll change it in "nations_init.c". That way it won't conflict with English "Baronet" in the translation as it does now.

 

[Homo eructus]

Baronet certainly exists in Spain, and in other countries, according to that Wikipedia title list - someone between a knight and a full baron. Other countries' equivalents to "knight" basically mean "horseman", e.g. French "chevalier", Dutch "ridder" - and Spanish "caballero".

If you really want the Spanish level 8 title to be "Caballero", I'll change it in "nations_init.c". That way it won't conflict with English "Baronet" in the translation as it does now.

The word baronet exists in Spanish (as a direct loanword) to refer to the British title, but it's not a title that exists in the Spanish nobility. In that same Wikipedia article, bafore the language table, you can read

"Baronet is a hereditary title ranking below Baron but above Knight; this title is granted only in the British Isles and does not confer nobility."

I don't really have a horse on this race, just answering the question. I wasn't aware of any changes to the nobility titles, in my files they're as they always were. Even if Baronet doesn't really fit Spain or other countries, it never bothered me to the point of wanting to change it. It works either way for me.

 

[Grey Roger]

Fair enough. Here is "nations_init.c" with the Spanish and Portuguese titles adjusted, and English "common.ini" changed to match. "common.ini" will need to be translated again into Spanish as that is not the only change!

 

[Homo eructus]

Here goes the updated SPANISH common.ini

I'd like to go back to work on the translation in a more significant way, but the translation of Sunless Sea I'm doing is taking me crazy amounts of time and I don't want to burn out on too much nautical translation work.

 

[Grey Roger]

Thanks!

 

[Grey Roger]

Another tweak to addressing nobles. This time it's the function 'GetMyRespectfullyName'. At present, if the character has a title, the result is that title plus the character's last name; if not, but the character has a ship, it's "Captain" plus last name; otherwise it's just the last name. This is fine for most occasions, but it means that, for example, Francis Drake after his knighthood is "Sir Drake", whereas I'd expect it to be "Sir Francis". So this version of "Dialog_func.c" modifies it to check if the title is any of those given along with a knighthood by function 'GiveSwordAndPerks' in "NK.c", and if so, uses the first name instead. The function specifically looks for translated titles:

       if(ourTitle == TranslateString("", "Dame") || ourTitle == TranslateString("", "Sir") ||
          ourTitle == TranslateString("", "Chevalier") ||
          ourTitle == TranslateString("", "Doña") || ourTitle == TranslateString("", "Don") ||
          ourTitle == TranslateString("", "Dona") || ourTitle == TranslateString("", "Dom"))
       {
           ourName = GetMyName(chr);
       }

So it's easy to add or remove exceptions as appropriate.

And on that note, @Homo eructus: should a Spanish "Don" be addressed by first or last name? Formally it would probably be both, but that's handled by 'GetMyFormalName'. If a single name is used, should it be first name (e.g. Don Juan) or last name (e.g. Don Quijote)?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I'd expect it to be "Sir Francis"

Sir Francis, eh?
Sounds about right.
Sir Francis Haddock