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Disney and Disney+

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The problem is that if you change the way the Force works and then you put such a provocative message spoken by a prominent old Star Wars character in your new film, you are directly calling out the old fans and rubbing it in their face that you have changed their beloved universe.
It was a non-Force-sensitive character who said it.
It's kind-of fun to see Han Solo of all "people" talk as if he knows how the Force works.
Certainly after all his cynicism about it in the Original Trilogy.
But just like with Kylo Ren's quote, I would consider the validity of the source.

And actually, in that particular in-film context, it seemed to fit and made sense to me.
Plus it was fairly funny, I thought.

There are plenty of criticisms I can think of levelling against the Disney Star Wars era.
This isn't one of them though. Not for me anyway. :shrug

You're focusing too much on the details and not seeing the bigger picture.
That'd be a first for me!
Usually big picture is the first thing I see.

And there is no denying that these actions have directly contributed to the segregation of the fandom and the toxicity now brewing in the fandom.
"The making of the Star Wars prequels" did the same thing.

You can't blame the old fans for reacting, for defending their heroes, their culture, and their beliefs.
I don't blame them for reacting and I never will.
They've got their rights to their opinions.

But as much as it might feel different, in truth those heroes were never "theirs".
And the culture and beliefs around those characters differ from person to person.

What I do blame the fans for is the level of toxicity that they go to.

If, as a prominent publisher, I start to distribute pirate stories that speak badly in their depictions and themes about the PiratesAhoy! legacy, website, and community, and then when the community is provoked/enraged, I start calling them names in public media, stigmatising them, and continuing to provoke, hurt, and insult them through the content I produce, I am far from innocent, and I am responsible for what happens.
Reference to the Buccaneer's Reef?

Imagine if I created a Pirates of the Caribbean movie in which I turned Jack Sparrow into an uncharacteristically useless, wannabe, pathetic character, who no longer knows how to swing a sword or how to be witty, who no longer wanted to sail, and then, in the same movie, I made one of the characters make an arrogant, direct reference to how Jack has forever changed, how useless he is compared to the other, so-much-better new characters, and imply how the world is better off without him.
Isn't that kind-of what Disney themselves did with the fifth movie?
That one literally goes against something established in the second. :facepalm

The reason seems simple: there isn't a singular vision of malice at all.
It's people being people.
Or, more accurately, flawed people being flawed people.

Disney has in fact been engaged in bullying the old fans from the start: (deliberately) emotionally provoking them and then verbally and emotionally abusing them, and encouraging the same behaviour in their followers -- leading by example.
I feel a need to say that you oppose propaganda; yet a page like Disney Star Wars is Dumb effectively has propaganda as its name.
No balanced perspective can be expected there.

As contrast, here are two articles about Disney Star Wars that I read in the past two days:

'The Rise of Skywalker': The Heartwarming Reason Daisy Ridley Loved Her Bizarre Wrap Gift from J.J. Abrams

Disney+ Releases Score-Only Version Of ‘Star Wars: The Last Jedi’ On Its Streaming Service

They both acknowledge the less-than-perfect bits, but have good in there too.
And certainly for a John Williams fan like myself, that second one is pretty darn good news!

Disney did exactly this kind of misappropriation with [...] Mulan
I've heard some rumours about that before.
Not knowing the details, I am going to assume that it is true and it could've been more culturally appropriate than it was.

Still, it's the ONLY Disney animated musical that I actually like. And I like it A LOT!
As far as I'm concerned, taken on its own merits and unhindered by any prior knowledge, I reckon it is a good film.

most recently Moana
I got the impression they genuinely tried to be more appropriate there than they have been in the past.

I'll be curious to see what happens with the 2020 live-action remake of Mulan:


That'll be a bit of a make-or-break for me!
I love the original and think it is a PERFECT film to turn into live-action.
Much more so than "The Lion King" or "Beauty and the Beast".

So far I've enjoyed the life-action remakes, while again acknowledging that they're not perfect either.
Certainly those two I mentioned felt relatively on the pointless side.
But I watched "Aladdin" a few days back and, after hearing quite a bit of bad press, was pleasantly surprised by it.

All of those have the bonus though that I didn't much care about the originals.
Not so with Mulan. That one deserves to be done RIGHT!
And I am not at all sure I can trust "Disney" to actually pull that off.

They're already at a disadvantage that the music by Jerry Goldsmith was EPIC, but he is no longer around to do the new one.
They hired Harry Gregson-Williams instead, who most certainly can do a very good job as well.

I'll be very, very curious to see though what it turns out like.
Anything could happen...

Anyone who dearly loved the old Star Wars, the Lucasverse, soon found themselves marginalised, publically attacked in the media, and socially discriminated against and persecuted in mainstream Star Wars fan communities.
All I can say is: I dearly loved Star Wars. In fact, I still do.
I'll admit I never got completely swallowed by the EU, but I read more than my fair share of books and watched the entirety of The Clone Wars.
I dare say that makes me a bigger-than-average fan.

I never felt marginalised or publicly attacked by Disney.

I haven't been very active in mainstream Star Wars fan communities, but I've watched all sorts of recent YouTube videos, looked at some Reddits, even dared venture into the depths of some comment sections.
And I've been debating it on the John Williams Fan Network forum too (especially recently after the release of TROS).
There's clearly PLENTY of discrimination and persecution going on there.
I managed to avoid being too much on the receiving end of it, but I have zero doubt that it happens.

And I am really sorry you got the short end of that stick.
You don't deserve to. Nobody does.

So if you want to talk excitedly about what you love about old Star Wars, you are very welcome to do so here!
You might even excite me enough to look closer into it again myself.
There's plenty there still left to be explored for me. :cheers
 
Constantly willfully overlooking and dismissing -- you're starting to really both trigger and anger me, so this is the last post I am going to make in this thread and on this topic. (Warning: this is going to be somewhat provocative and judgemental, as I'm short of patience, but I hope it proves moving and insightful for you, nevertheless -- otherwise there's not much point to it.)

"The making of the Star Wars prequels" did the same thing.
No. :no George Lucas didn't go rubbing it in the fans' face and calling the old fans offensive names in public. In fact, he did the opposite -- he advocated for understanding and acceptance, and he withdrew Jar Jar from his prominent role in later films due to the racist fan backlash and controversy.

Lucas didn't capitalise on the conflict within the fandom after the release of the first new film, that somewhat unfavourably affected the old films, caused controversy. That's a huge difference.

He didn't attempt to culturally manipulate and exploit the fans, he respected his audience and their independent choices as a filmmaker.

But as much as it might feel different, in truth those heroes were never "theirs".
And the culture and beliefs around those characters differ from person to person.
How can you say that? While individual perspectives are different, for nearly three decades we have had a Star Wars culture we could share, with people growing deeply attached to their favourite characters and heroes.

I don't approve of this dismissal in the least, and I honestly find it shallow in insight and heartless.

Reference to the Buccaneer's Reef?
No idea what that is. :no No, I was just drawing an analogy to illustrate my point.

The reason seems simple: there isn't a singular vision of malice at all.
It's people being people.
Or, more accurately, flawed people being flawed people.
That's far too optimistic for my taste. People do things for a reason -- whether consciously or subconsciously. If we don't act with moral responsibility for our actions, then we are bound to act immoral sooner or later.

You can't excuse immoral and hurtful acts with "I'm sure they didn't mean it like that", "boys will be boys", or "that's people for you". That's dismissal and covering up.

I feel a need to say that you oppose propaganda; yet a page like Disney Star Wars is Dumb effectively has propaganda as its name.
No balanced perspective can be expected there.
No, the fact that you judge it by its name shows that you are biased and/or under the influence of propaganda. I consider it objectively for its content -- specifically the content on that page, which collects specific, verifiable records as evidence from the events that I have witnessed with my own eyes when they took place, and I am already well familiar with. Events that have caused great controversy in the fandom.

This is a website that is dedicated to intellectually challenging the Disney propaganda -- the opposing faction, if you will. I find the truth generally lies somewhere in-between (according to the principle of the Golden Mean in nature).

They both acknowledge the less-than-perfect bits, but have good in there too.
And certainly for a John Williams fan like myself, that second one is pretty darn good news!
How is this relevant to Disney's immoral conduct towards the fans? You're offering me empty positivity, news marketing highlights from Disney to cover up a real social problem. If you know how the media works, then you know this is nothing but Disney propaganda.

And you said you hate lying and deception. :rolleyes:

Still, it's the ONLY Disney animated musical that I actually like. And I like it A LOT!
As far as I'm concerned, taken on its own merits and unhindered by any prior knowledge, I reckon it is a good film.
Not saying it's a bad film. I was talking about cultural toxicity at Disney -- the abuse and exploitation of people and their cultures that has been consistently going on at Disney for many decades.

I got the impression they genuinely tried to be more appropriate there than they have been in the past.
Maui was completely misrepresented in the film, insultingly so. I have Maori friends who respect their own heritage and who found the movie westernising their culture and insulting. Disney couldn't even get one of the main heroes of their culture right, sticking to his character faithfully. It was more important to promote their Western ideals.

But, of course, you didn't hear anything about this in the Disney-promoted news about the film.

So far I've enjoyed the life-action remakes, while again acknowledging that they're not perfect either.
I'll be perfectly honest: this makes me not want to talk to you about movies anymore. The recent Disney live-action remakes are some of the worst movies produced in the entire history of film -- anyone who is dedicated to filmmaking as a storytelling medium or who is involved in animation will tell you this. It's about as low in art quality as you can get, and you're calling them okay and something you're looking forward to seeing being made and paying for.


I never felt marginalised or publicly attacked by Disney.
Obviously not that dedicated a fan if you didn't feel Disney destroying your favourite characters and universe hurtful.

In fact, you admitted yourself that even not being that dedicated a fan, you still found the new movies in the end to be distasteful.

And I guess you didn't feel offended when Kathleen Kennedy and J.J. Abrams called you (and any fan who had gripes with the direction of the new trilogy) a misogynistic manbaby?

You can overlook these social-cultural offences, and pretend that they do not affect you, but that doesn't make what happened right or Disney any more morally in the right, nor the damage inflicted on people (and their culture) any less severe. If you don't take a stand for what you believe in, you're allowing the other forces to triumph.

"Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing." ~ John Stuart Mill

You can watch disabled people be discriminated against, segregated, and institutionalised on various ableist pretexts and choose to shut your eyes and believe that that's the way things are meant to be and that "we are really helping them", that "we are being generous", that "it's a good thing". That's the power of social influence and propaganda. It takes people, who have stopped listening to their own intuition, being willing to shut their eyes to the negative, to the wrongs being done, and living in a "perfect" bubble of positivity instead -- a false reality -- to make that horror a reality.

I will end my contributions to this debate here. You can choose to close your eyes, but I prefer the truth, from wide and varied sources, as wholesomely and objectively as possible -- a pursuit of deeper knowledge and insight.

Balance lies not in shutting our eyes to negativity and in denying the truth, but in accepting and knowing well both the positive and the negative wholeheartedly, and in getting in tune with our intuition so that we can make an independent and balanced choice, to openly reason cognitively and intuitively, and actively advocate for the balance. (Sometimes, when we've been hurt, this takes time.) It means rising up against and not being afraid to criticise that which we feel as being harmful to our way of life, to our society. Democracy was founded and is sustained upon these human principles.

In short, fans have a right to be angry about Disney drastically changing the fictional Star Wars universe, and Disney has no moral right to publically stigmatise people like this, influence public perception through propaganda, to segregate the fan community, to spread hate and emotional abuse, and to fuel conflict in the fan community that serves their selfish interests.
 
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Let's throw something else in here.
I've got quite a collection of movie-related stuff, including DVDs, some blu-rays, books, games and LEGO.
Right you might enjoy seeing it, so I took some photos:

20200102_155719.jpg 20200102_155751.jpg 20200102_155806.jpg

It's quite a varied bunch but, as it comes to Star Wars, my LEGO sets indicate where my preferences lie.
Original Trilogy wins. ;)
 
It's quite a varied bunch but, as it comes to Star Wars, my LEGO sets indicate where my preferences lie.
Original Trilogy wins. ;)
I'm more intrigued by the versatility in your taste in fantasy fiction -- which is nothing short of great! ^_^

You have some rare and precious classics here as well as some compete junk. :facepalm

For example, I can't understand how Willow and Solo can fit on the same shelf. :no The former is a rare cult classic, the latter is utter commercial rubbish.

FYI: Newt Scamander from Fantastic Beasts is autistic! Officially confirmed by the actor.

I have some classics suggestions in line with this fantasy thematic pattern on your shelf that I think you might really enjoy: The Dark Crystal (1982) (a Jim Henson masterpiece), Labyrinth (1986), The Secret of N.I.M.H. (1982) (as well as the book 'Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of N.I.M.H.' by Robert C. O'Brien), The Neverending Story (1984) (as well as the book with the same name it was loosely based on by Michael Ende), Merlin (1998 mini-series featuring Sam Neill as well fleshed out Merlin), Fire and Ice (1983), and The Last Unicorn (1982) (and more importantly the novel with the same name by Peter S. Beagle). You may also enjoy Donnie Darko (2001) and 'Tom's Midnight Garden' by Philippa Pearce. I'm pretty sure there's more, but that's all I can think of at this point.

As for Star Wars tales, I can heartily recommend the 'Yoda: Dark Randezvous' audiobook.

Ever looked into Frank Herbert's Dune (and the classic 1984 film based on it)? Other, more serious sci-fi films that may interest you are Steven Spielberg's AI (2001), and Ridley Scott's Blade Runner (1982), as well as the classic art film 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) by Stanley Kubrick. Dune and Space Odyssey, as well as the Flash Gordon TV series were main inspirations for George Lucas to create the original Star Wars trilogy.

Jodorowsky's Dune (2013) is a must-watch documentary film for any fantasy and sci-fi movie fan! :bonaparte

Strange Magic (2015) is a lighthearted and fun recent take on Shakespeare's 'A Midsummer Night's Dream' by George Lucas that was terribly marketed, becoming a bit of a cult classic.

Is that the original Jurassic Park soundtrack?! :woot
 
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I'm more intrigued by the versatility in your taste in fantasy fiction -- which is nothing short of great! ^_^
Thank you very kindly!
And that was just the tip of the iceberg.
See if you can spot some more fun stuff here: :cheeky

20200103_102513.jpg 20200103_102527.jpg 20200103_102550.jpg 20200103_102605.jpg 20200103_102624.jpg

You have some rare and precious classics here as well as some compete junk. :facepalm
Haha; very true!
And that goes for the entirety of my collection.
The range in quality is completely all over the place.

Also completely up to interpretation as we both love Cutthroat Island, even though most people seem to consider it famously terrible. :ninja

For example, I can't understand how Willow and Solo can fit on the same shelf. :no The former is a rare cult classic, the latter is utter commercial rubbish.
Perfectly true!

Solo does have one clear redeeming factor in the excellent quality of its music:
Solo: A Star Wars Story (Original Motion Picture Soundtrack)
Theme by JOHN WILLIAMS and the rest is effectively "How To Train Your Dragon IN SPACE"! :shock

So that's one point of similarity with Willow, which is also graced by excellent music; this time by the late great James Horner.
I actually mentioned that film to my mum a few days back when she told me about spotting Warwick Davis in a movie recently.
And that reminds me: I should watch it again some day. :woot

Also, I still want to reorganize my stuff some time.
It's vaguely grouped by genre, but it doesn't all fit together the way I'd like right now.
For example, I've got my pirate stuff scattered over two shelves in different Billy's.
And Star Wars is even worse: it's completely all over the place.
One day, eh? :cheers

FYI: Newt Scamander from Fantastic Beasts is autistic! Officially confirmed by the actor.
BRILLIANT!
I really like that character.
Nice change of pace from the usual kind of hero.
Really excited to see where this series goes next.

I have some classics suggestions in line with this fantasy thematic pattern on your shelf that I think you might really enjoy
Thank you very much!
Your suggestions sound absolutely excellent.
I'll definitely look into them once I can find the chance.

The Dark Crystal (1982) (a Jim Henson masterpiece) [...], The Secret of N.I.M.H. (1982) [...], Merlin (1998 mini-series featuring Sam Neill as well fleshed out Merlin)
These three have indeed been on my to-watch list FOR YEARS!
Not just because they fit with my interests in the genre, but also because they've got excellent music.

Dark Crystal and Merlin by Trevor Jones, who also did the fun pirate score for "Savage Islands/Nate and Hayes".
That movie is largely inspired on Indiana Jones, but with pirates instead.

And Secret of NIMH with music by the late great Jerry Goldsmith.
I mentioned already recently mentioned him as he also did an incredible (last-minute?) replacement job on Mulan.

As for Star Wars tales, I can heartily recommend the 'Yoda: Dark Randezvous' audiobook.
I've never really been into audiobooks; that's more my mum's thing.
But now that my brain is fried and I can't concentrate well on reading, maybe this is a good place to start.
I do like me some good 'ol Yoda; that's for sure!
(Any pointers where I might find this one?)

Is that the original Jurassic Park soundtrack?! :woot
ABSO-EFFIN'-LUTELY!!!

Might've been my very first soundtrack CD. One of my first anyway.
Always loved it. COMPLETELY excellent.

Funny you should mention that one right now out of all the ones I've got.
It was exactly this weekend I commissioned a custom complete edit of that same soundtrack.
It combines the original album with the complete release and adds some extra bonus tracks too.
You can find it EXCLUSIVELY here:
MEGA

Work done by one of my American friends.
We don't see eye-to-eye AT ALL on politics, but otherwise get along fine.
He's fallen on financially difficult times, so I asked him to do some work for me.
Partly because I wanted it done and partly as an excuse so I could let him earn some money.
I paid him 20 dollars for this one. ;)
 
ABSO-EFFIN'-LUTELY!!!

Might've been my very first soundtrack CD. One of my first anyway.
Always loved it. COMPLETELY excellent.

Funny you should mention that one right now out of all the ones I've got.
It was exactly this weekend I commissioned a custom complete edit of that same soundtrack.
It combines the original album with the complete release and adds some extra bonus tracks too.
You can find it EXCLUSIVELY here:
MEGA
Thank you for sharing! :bow

Work done by one of my American friends.
We don't see eye-to-eye AT ALL on politics, but otherwise get along fine.
He's fallen on financially difficult times, so I asked him to do some work for me.
Partly because I wanted it done and partly as an excuse so I could let him earn some money.
I paid him 20 dollars for this one. ;)
Nice thinking, always sad to hear of such cases of financial difficulties, at least you helped him in some way.
 
Inspired by @Cerez' skepticism, my curiosity has been triggered as well.
So when I saw a headline like this, I went to investigate:

Films are quietly disappearing from Disney Plus

Turns out... This is NOT TRUE in The Netherlands.
I checked just now and Home Alone 1-2-3 and all Pirates of the Caribbean films are still there.

On the other hand:

Disney+ Releases Score-Only Version Of ‘Star Wars: The Last Jedi’ On Its Streaming Service

This is ALSO not true.
I checked myself here and that feature is nowhere to be found.
I also checked with JWFan and apparently even people who DID have it before don't have it anymore now.

If I give Disney the benefit of the doubt, I figure the legal rights behind the scenes must be a NIGHTMARE to straighten out.
And what we and others are seeing are the side-effects of this process.

But even if that is true, they're certainly failing in the communications department.
I don't want to go all the way to calling it "blatantly false advertising", but it sure could be handled a whole lot more transparently for the users.

Half strike AGAINST Disney+ here.
They've got some improving to do...
 
Also completely up to interpretation as we both love Cutthroat Island, even though most people seem to consider it famously terrible. :ninja
I absolutely can't see why. :no What's wrong with well-developed action characters and a high-paced but coherent and exhilirating plot, even if it relies on some well-known cliches for easy following? It contributes enough original content in its storytelling, characters, and production approach and execution that it stands out as a quality film, with an excellent musical score. It does take itself seriously, makes good sense with its storytelling, and shows passion.

I've learned a long time ago that what people like and dislike often isn't dependent on quality at all, but on current culture, influence from their social environment, and marketing influence/hype.

These three have indeed been on my to-watch list FOR YEARS!
Don't miss any of these three -- they are all outstanding productions and films, to the utmost!

The Secret of NIMH is quite possibly the highest quality hand-drawn western feature animated film ever made -- well surpassing any of Disney's work -- and most professional animators, even those who have worked for Disney, will tell you this! It is also a mesmerising new take on an award-winning novel -- offering something entirely unique that sets the movie from the novel apart, and makes it just as worthwhile to experience as the original novel. It is entirely the work of a passionate group of experienced people, and took an enormous sacrifice to make. Just the opening of this film is something that gives me chills every time I watch it, for over 25 years, and that will stay with me forever!

Merlin tackles the story of Merlin and old Germanic culture and mythology in ways that no modern story or film ever has, bringing it to life and making it feel present-day. By the end of the series, you will feel that you have personally known Merlin and lived with him, as well as gotten to know Britain's pre-Christian beliefs and mythology intimately. Sam Neill gives the performance of his life, completely disappearing into Merlin. Chances are that, after watching this film mini-series, this is the one Merlin, the faulty and lovable human being, you will always remember. The same goes for much of the rest of the cast, including the villains (Queen Mab and company).

The Dark Crystal is a fantasy tale unlike any other, and simply the quality and nature of the production is enough to leave it memorable in your mind forever. Work on The Dark Crystal was inspired by Jim Henson's first venture into motion pictures with the creation of Yoda for The Empire Strikes Back. Jim felt that the next step would be creating an entire film with such highly detailed and realistic muppets set in a fantasy world -- something that films couldn't capture at the time. Way before CGI, and unique in quality, all to its own, with dark themes and settings, befitting an epic fantasy tale, The Dark Crystal inspired such later, 80s film classic as The Neverending Story and Labyrinth, as well as more recent films such as The Lord of the Rings trilogy, Bridge to Terabithia, and Pan's Labyrinth.

And Secret of NIMH with music by the late great Jerry Goldsmith.
I mentioned already recently mentioned him as he also did an incredible (last-minute?) replacement job on Mulan.
One of the most haunting musical scores ever written! :bow

Jerry is my absolute favourite motion picture composer. :love

He also composed the main theme for Star Trek: Voyager. :yes

I've never really been into audiobooks; that's more my mum's thing.
But now that my brain is fried and I can't concentrate well on reading, maybe this is a good place to start.
I do like me some good 'ol Yoda; that's for sure!
(Any pointers where I might find this one?)
Sure thing, and, yes, once you get used to it, I think you will find this medium inspiring. This is a great introduction, a quality audiobook. I've uploaded it for you in my personal Dropbox account here: ;)
Dropbox - Star Wars - Yoda - Dark Rendezvous.zip (~300 MB)

To download the whole package, click on "more" (the "..." in the right hand side menu) and the "download" option in the context menu that appears.

You'll need to add the sound files together into a playlist, using iTunes or any other audio playback software. VLC can do it on the run, too.

Thanks for sharing your personally curated and expanded Jurassic Park soundtrack! It'll be the first thing I download! xD (Dinosaurs and Jurassic Park stands close to my heart since the earliest days of my childhood.)
 
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The Mega Jurassic Park Expanded Soundtrack download link doesn't work for some reason. :confused: It says the folder is no longer there or not set to be accessible.
Maybe Pieter or I can reupload it for you.
If Pieter doesn't object.

When you write a couple of songs that Jerry Goldsmith then turns into a musical score: ^_^

Very nice, orchestral music in general is the best. :thumbs1
 
Things are getting a bit too hectic for me around here, lately -- with too many changes, Pieter -- which is making me freak out and keep my distance. :cool

Do what you like, but I can't say any of this is to my liking -- nor that I can comfortably/safely follow it. :read
 
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Things are getting a bit too hectic for me around here, lately
I understand.

too many changes, Pieter
I am making big changes in my life too.

which is making me freak out and keep my distance. :cool
Sounds wise. :onya

I can't say any of this is to my liking -- nor that I can comfortably/safely follow it. :read
When you are ready, please tell me what you would like.

@Cerez, how do you feel about me moving "archiving" this tread for the time being?
In the meantime, I have:
I hope that helps you.

If you need anything else, please ask @The Nameless Pirate.

Do what you like
Thank you!

:flower
 
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