Coordinating our efforts

Pieter Boelen · Jul 9, 2006

Hello all,

The Pre Build 13 has been released and yet more bugfixes are being made every day. Apparently things are going very well indeed as far as bugfixing is concerned. If we continue fixing bugs at this rate, the real Build 13 might be released very soon indeed. However, there is one major problem that could slow down the progress enormously.

I have, so far, received a codebase from IncredibleHat and Maximus. IncredibleHat has rewritten a lot of Maximus' code, while Maximus also rewrote a lot of his own code. Unfortunately, they both rewrote the same code. So the problem I'm having now is that I don't know what code to use and/or how to merge this code together. The same problem occurs with another issue, where Maximus sent me a bugfix for the same bug that was fixed by Hook a couple of days ago.

Of course we are all trying to work hard with the same goal: A stable Build 13. But it seems that sometimes people are working on the same code at the same time with the result that both fixed versions fix different things, but are not compatible, so there is not one version of the code that fixes everything.

If we want to make a finished Build 13, it is apparent that we need to coordinate our efforts. IncredibleHat's Bug Tracker has greatly helped in fixing bugs quickly, but, so far, we have not been making sure that everybody's new fixes are compatible with the fixes somebody else migth be working on. We do need to figure out a way to do this this though, so please post your views on the matter here. All ideas are welcome.

I personally think it is absolutely CRUCIAL for all modders and bugfixers to communicate with each other about the work they are doing. At the moment, all fixes are being sent to me and all communication is sent to me. But I don't know how to make everything work together. So there is an absolute need to commnicate with the other modders as well.

At the moment, I have put four different code bases on the FTP in the folder "+ Latest modpack update WIP":
1) Pre Build 13 code base as released this Saturday
2) Maximus' changed codefiles
3) IncredibleHat's changed codefiles
4) My attempted merge

My attempted merge is not entirely right, so we will have to figure out a way to get it all working together properly. For that, I think the original coders will need to help in the merging process, because I didn't write not rewrite any of the changed code, so I don't know how I should put it together properly either.

IncredibleHat · Jul 9, 2006

Well, here is my bit on this.

This would be handled a bit better if we all actually used the Bug Tracker, and read the issues there, and used the 'assignment' functionality.

If a certain bug is assigned to Swindler, or Hook, or Maximus, then they should only work on that bug. If someone else comes up with the fix earlier, and it works, then they can report the code changes to the Issue for the assigned person to use (or not if they already fixed it).

All the changes I had done, I did Friday. I was doing one change, but came across SO MANY dang bugs, that I fixed them all as I was going through the code. Thatâ€™s why my pack was very large of fixes... It covered a lot of things that no one even mentioned they were going to fix (or were fixing) on the Bug Tracker (except a few minor ones by KK and Swindler), so I figured it ok to add it to the pack upload I sent.

If I had known that the fix was ALREADY submitted, I would not have bothered. I just see loads of untested code added, and I get the urge to clean house. Nothing worse than a copy/paste of code that came from who knows where, and wasn't properly integrated into the scripting language of this game.

I do know that all of the code I posted, works. I tested it all as much as I could, with a few exceptions that required a lot of hours of play which I didn't have, however the code change should be fine. Stuff like boarding and looting up to 100 ships to make sure that none of them actually had any cannon powder (when the mod toggle is off). They shouldnâ€™t... But thatâ€™s something I didnâ€™t have the time to test out to make damned sure of. Even if they did, the effect would not be harmful to the game of those playing without cannon powder on... They would simply sell it off and never see it again.

Communication is KEY when multiple people are working on the same code. When there is absolutely NO communication from others, who simply throw heaps of code changes onto the FTP without anyone else knowing about it except Pieter... Then problems like this come up.

If someone uploads a 'merge' of this current issue without even mentioning they did so, or report it on the bug tracker, or even respond to us all about it... Then my point is made clear about lack of communication.

Sometimes, when a new update comes out and there are tons of changes or additions, I wonder were the hell they even came from, because they were never reported, or even mentioned on either Forum or Bug Tracker.

One thing I immediately noticed while starting to analyze the two code files... was that Maximus's files appeared to be based off much older files than the july 6th update. Merge seems to work ok with these types of missing data mixed with new data. However with the confliction of same chunks of code being changed... thats gonna take time to sort out. My changes are taking priority in the merge I am attempting to build, because I made my fixes to already updated code, as apposed to ancient code that had even more bugs.

I realize Maximus doesn't have the best internet connection and can mis out on updates, and thus work on old code... but that doesn't mean we can't all help him out and get the merges done well.

I know I will get a lot of flack for saying this, but tough. If you want my help cleaning up issues, then you are going to have to start taking responsibility for your work and accept the consequences of people pointing out your flaws when you do sloppy work. And I'm getting sick of modders adding things without even testing first!

"Fear of failure, fear of criticism, fear of rejectionâ€“those are the only things people are accountable to. Praise makes people weak. Why improve if you think you are doing things right?" - Alfred Bester
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/par-ty.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :cheers

" border="0" alt="par-ty.gif" />

Pieter Boelen · Jul 9, 2006

I agree with IncredibleHat. We really need to communicate about what we are doing. And using the Bug Tracker is a great way of doing this. But then everybody will need to use the bug tracker. Also: If anybody changes somebody else's code, I think the original coder should be notified of what you are doing. Provided, of course, that the original coder is still active in the community.

Another idea I had (not sure if it is good): We can put a base version on the FTP. When somebody makes some bugfixes, he can add them to this base version, replacing the original version. Then when the next person goes to add new stuff, the changes from the previous person are already in there. So the FTP base version would always contain the most of everybody's work. For this to work, we would need to make sure that not two people are putting some new work on there at once. Also: We would need to make sure that nobody will remove somebody else's code without notifying the original coder.

For this to work, I could ask Keith to set up a seperate FTP with this as it's only purpose. Then I would give access to this FTP to all bugfixers only. And, if possible, make it so that only one member can be logged into the FTP at once.

BTW: Who are the active coders/bugfixers at the moment? We have Hook, IncredibleHat, Pirate_KK, Maximus and Swindler. I know I am missing some, so please tell me. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/doff.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :doff

" border="0" alt="doff.gif" />

Swindler · Jul 9, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pieter Boelen @ Jul 9 2006, 07:29 PM) [snapback]154421[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
I agree with IncredibleHat. We really need to communicate about what we are doing. And using the Bug Tracker is a great way of doing this. But then everybody will need to use the bug tracker.
</div>

No discussion over this point <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="icon_wink.gif" />

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pieter Boelen @ Jul 9 2006, 07:29 PM) [snapback]154421[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Also: If anybody changes somebody else's code, I think the original coder should be notified of what you are doing. Provided, of course, that the original coder is still active in the community.
</div>

And has provided a comment in the code, so he's identifiable. Although there's a lot of comments in the code, most times, they're not understandable. Either the comment lacks the information what the code does or it lacks the information why the code was added.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pieter Boelen @ Jul 9 2006, 07:29 PM) [snapback]154421[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Another idea I had (not sure if it is good): We can put a base version on the FTP. When somebody makes some bugfixes, he can add them to this base version, replacing the original version. Then when the next person goes to add new stuff, the changes from the previous person are already in there.
</div>

Basically, that's a very good idea. But it doesn't prevent the problem that two or more coders working on the same file the same time. So it might happen, that one overwrites the work of the other in putting the file back to FTP.

What you're really mean, and I thought of, is a CVS or something like this: people, who want to work on code have to check out the files. It'll be documented, when checked out and why. If you finished work, you check in the file back. But as I haven't worked with such a system until now, I don't know exactly, if it would be possible and how easy it would be to understand.

IncredibleHat · Jul 9, 2006

I uploaded the merge I worked on. The process I took was a careful one.

1) I took the pre13 base code files and put them in a directory.
2) Then I compared with that, the last recent pbm12 (July 6th).
3) I reduced the pre13 files to just the ones changed in that time.
4) I then compared the new pre13 files to my fixes pack.
5) Combined the efforts a new set of code files.
6) Begun deciphering maximus' code additions.
- lack of comments in most of his work left me to wonder what or if, anything was new.
- some files didnt have any actual additions, only MISSING information as compared to july 6th even.
- some things he tried to fix, were better fixed already.
7) Once I got those additions in, I merged it.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="8)" border="0" alt="cool.gif" /> Created a pack of files that are all 'new' from pre13 base install.

I have uploaded this package to the WIP directory for pieter to look at, and others as well: TIH-MergeResult+pb13+tih+max.zip

There were a few questions/issues with maximus' code pack:
1) why were their missing lines of code, and NO comments about where it went?
2) why did he try to completely eliminate the cursed coins addition?
3) I used the "Fists Fix" from my code (two lines) as apposed to his ... uhm... very long and drawn out possible fix. Sorry maximus!
4) I didnt add anything regarding boarding, as hook is working on a much better method for dealing with the numbers

So, thats my attempt... and my only attempt. It runs, and I saw no errors in any logs... I personally think its a good first update for the Base Pre Build Mod 13. Then we can ALL work from that point.

I wish to stress the <b>IMPORTANCE</b> of comments and tagging all your changes!!! Taglines (you sig) is important! I put them around on anything I do. If I comment out a line (to remove the code) I comment the line, and tag it, and usually add a small 'why'.

Please... PLEASE do this people. It is not a difficult thing to ask, and it makes the world much easier for everyone ELSE!

Thank you.

Quasar · Jul 10, 2006

With out me reading what was said after.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pieter Boelen @ Jul 9 2006, 03:52 PM) [snapback]154399[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>Hello all,

The Pre Build 13 has been released and yet more bugfixes are being made every day. Apparently things are going very well indeed as far as bugfixing is concerned. If we continue fixing bugs at this rate, the real Build 13 might be released very soon indeed. However, there is one major problem that could slow down the progress enormously.

I have, so far, received a codebase from IncredibleHat and Maximus. IncredibleHat has rewritten a lot of Maximus' code, while Maximus also rewrote a lot of his own code. Unfortunately, they both rewrote the same code. So the problem I'm having now is that I don't know what code to use and/or how to merge this code together. The same problem occurs with another issue, where Maximus sent me a bugfix for the same bug that was fixed by Hook a couple of days ago.</div>
Pieter to be fair if Maximus is still working on his own stuff then no one should jump in and change or play with his work with out 1st asking and while Maximus is still working on it.

Sorry IncredibleHat but that's unfair and you not like it if someone played with your work with out asking. But if you are working with Maximus's or he said that's ok then sorry for jumping in.

Pieter so if Maximus as done some work on his mod you should use his unless he stop work on mod or there just troo many bug's and he not sorting it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pieter Boelen @ Jul 9 2006, 03:52 PM) [snapback]154399[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Of course we are all trying to work hard with the same goal: A stable Build 13. But it seems that sometimes people are working on the same code at the same time with the result that both fixed versions fix different things, but are not compatible, so there is not one version of the code that fixes everything.

If we want to make a finished Build 13, it is apparent that we need to coordinate our efforts. IncredibleHat's Bug Tracker has greatly helped in fixing bugs quickly, but, so far, we have not been making sure that everybody's new fixes are compatible with the fixes somebody else migth be working on. We do need to figure out a way to do this this though, so please post your views on the matter here. All ideas are welcome.</div>
Yes a lot of you work damm hard and while done.
IncredibleHat's Bug Tracker is somethink we needed and thank you IncredibleHat', with that and the hard work you done, so far and hope your keep the good work up.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pieter Boelen @ Jul 9 2006, 03:52 PM) [snapback]154399[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
I personally think it is absolutely CRUCIAL for all modders and bugfixers to communicate with each other about the work they are doing. At the moment, all fixes are being sent to me and all communication is sent to me. But I don't know how to make everything work together. So there is an absolute need to commnicate with the other modders as well.</div>
Yes you should all communicate with each other to see where, help needed, if you can help with what work there doing and plan out what work your each doing all you could end up doing the same project.
Maybe what is needed is a Project Manager ( preson who know's who doing what and make sure no more then 2 person doing same project unless working on same project). He or she can then put who doing what work on forum so other's can see and maybe make comment's where need be.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pieter Boelen @ Jul 9 2006, 03:52 PM) [snapback]154399[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
At the moment, I have put four different code bases on the FTP in the folder "+ Latest modpack update WIP":
1) Pre Build 13 code base as released this Saturday
2) Maximus' changed codefiles
3) IncredibleHat's changed codefiles
4) My attempted merge

My attempted merge is not entirely right, so we will have to figure out a way to get it all working together properly. For that, I think the original coders will need to help in the merging process, because I didn't write not rewrite any of the changed code, so I don't know how I should put it together properly either.
</div>

Don't try to merge same stuff or your get a lot more bug's. I know your trying not to upset both party's in this but as it's Maximus's work he should come 1st unless he happy with it.

The above I don't mean to upset any one but feel it need's to be said. Playing around with other person work that they are also doing will only give us a lot more bug's to sort out. It's fine on other stuff in game now that could do with a clean up or a bug sorted out but not with someone work there working on.

I vote for a Project Manager, not someone who a coders/bugfixers but someone who know's about coding. This will help Pieter a lot.

IncredibleHat · Jul 10, 2006

Simply put:

Irregardless whose work it is, the more important factor is not putting in old broken code when it already got fixed. That is called REgres, not PROgress.

Maximus submitted a chunk of code that was obsolete, and based off ancient files (which had bugs in them initially). This caused the entire problem, as most all of it had already been fixed! Many things in his submission were new, with new fixes, and HAVE been merged in with what I did. His work is not being ignored. Only the broken things are <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

I stand by my decision to use what I did in the merge I submitted. The boarding code is a complete f**ked up mess, and Hook knows why and is fixing it, because apparently no one else has been able to do a good job on it.

If someone is upset that someone changes their code for the better, then they obviously don't understand teamwork, and the importance of making a WORKING build mod instead of a BUSTED UP HEAP OF TRASH build mod.

If someone comes in later and alters my code to make it work better, GOOD! Thank you for doing so! But if someone comes in and alters my code and makes it break, do aweful bugs, or just act totally screwy when it was working already... then heck yeah I would be upset. But that isn't the case here.

Everyone needs to think loggically about this. Keep the emotions out of it and use your brains. Emotions have no business in working on code to reach a common goal. We must be machines, and pound on this code until it is fixed, clean, and working great.

Is that so much to ask?

Project Manager: yeah, one is definately needed.

I have managed many projects in my life... most of them dealing program development, and a couple dealing with full game conversions. However, I will NOT offer myself for this, as I am strict supervisor, and none of you are prepared for that kind of harsh management <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

LarryHookins · Jul 10, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SilverHawk @ Jul 9 2006, 08:37 PM) [snapback]154466[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
I vote for a Project Manager, not someone who a coders/bugfixers but someone who know's about coding. This will help Pieter a lot.
</div>
That's going to have to be Pieter, as he's the only one who knows what's going on everywhere.

All coordination should be done through the bug tracker, as everyone who is working on the code should be looking at it. Personally, I read everything that's written there. It keeps everything in one place and organizes it instead of spreading it out through several threads scattered about the forum.

There have been several issues posted to the bug tracker that someone found on the forum, so don't worry about things getting lost because they're not on the bug tracker. And most of us read everything on the forum.

As for finding and cleaning up errors in code as we go along, it's going to happen. If someone fixes a problem, then tests it and posts the corrected code, well, it's inconvenient if someone else is working on the same files. But it's a necessary process. I'm not going to hold off on sending in a fix just because *someone* *might* be working on the same problem. No one should. If we know someone's working on a specific fix, then we don't need to bother with it. Which goes back to the main problem: coordinating our efforts.

Given the number of glaring errors that have been in some of the updates, it's pretty obvious that the code isn't tested. I doubt Pieter has the time to test very much, so it's up to the modders. We're all going to make errors, but they shouldn't be errors that everyone is going to find the first time he fires up the game.

It would be nice if we had someone who was willing to test an update before it's made available to the rest of the community. In fact, this is much more important than having a project manager. And testing isn't the same as playing the game, as you have to go through a lot of things (like the full tutorial) that you might never do in a normal game.

I'm currently working on the boarding process. I don't care if anyone else is working on it, as if they post changes then it's *my* responsiblity to merge them into my code, if they're still pertinent. Many changes will be and I'll have to deal with that.

Currently Pieter is having to do all this merging himself. But when he isn't sure how, then it's up to the modders who made the changes. So with the changes made by IncredibleHat and Maximus, one of those two modders is going to have to merge the changes.

And there would be a lot fewer changes if the original modders would add toggles to everything they changed if the mod uses a toggle. It's not someone else's responsibility to follow another modder around to try to clean up his code. This is not difficult for the original modder, as he's already in the code anyway. But it's a royal pain for anyone else. And it gets the modders used to the idea of "encapsulating" their changes so they're easy to toggle.

So... a "project manager." Who would you suggest for the job? I certainly don't want it. And would all the modders follow him, or continue doing what they're doing now? I treat Pieter as the project manager now. But how much of an extra workload can he take on?

Hook

Swindler · Jul 10, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IncredibleHat @ Jul 10 2006, 12:04 AM) [snapback]154457[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
I uploaded the merge I worked on. The process I took was a careful one.

1) I took the pre13 base code files and put them in a directory.
2) Then I compared with that, the last recent pbm12 (July 6th).
3) I reduced the pre13 files to just the ones changed in that time.
4) I then compared the new pre13 files to my fixes pack.
5) Combined the efforts a new set of code files.
6) Begun deciphering maximus' code additions.
- lack of comments in most of his work left me to wonder what or if, anything was new.
- some files didnt have any actual additions, only MISSING information as compared to july 6th even.
- some things he tried to fix, were better fixed already.
7) Once I got those additions in, I merged it.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="8)" border="0" alt="cool.gif" /> Created a pack of files that are all 'new' from pre13 base install.

I have uploaded this package to the WIP directory for pieter to look at, and others as well: TIH-MergeResult+pb13+tih+max.zip
</div>

So I just tried to test this in installing it over latest update: Sorry, IncredibleHat, but I even didn't manage to get the game start. It's because of an syntax error in Sea_AI/sea.c, where you added the gunpowdermod-toggle:

<div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'>
if (CANNONPOWDER_MOD) {// TIH --> mod toggle 7-7-06
</div>

error.log says: <i>Invalid Expression</i> and <i>Missing ')'</i>.

AFAIK such phrases cannot be used in the PotC script language. It has to be:

<div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'>
if (CANNONPOWDER_MOD == 1)
</div>

Also, there's no
#define CANNONPOWDER_MOD
in BuildSettings.h by now. So even correcting this, would give another error...

Not sure, if to report to bugtracker, as this is no official release <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :shrug

" border="0" alt="dunno.gif" />

Pieter Boelen · Jul 10, 2006

Thanks to IncredibleHat for the work he did on the merge. I have now put a new file onto the FTP folder "6) Pieter Merged Pack.zip", which is based on IncredibleHat's merge, but with several things changed that I think needed change. I also added some of my own comments about why things were changed. I re-added some of Maximus' code to LAi_boarding.c for the talk to the enemy captain mod. I did not add the crew-related changes in. I hope you can have a look at my latest merge to see if there's anything obviously wrong.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swindler @ Jul 10 2006, 10:06 AM) [snapback]154494[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
So I just tried to test this in installing it over latest update: Sorry, IncredibleHat, but I even didn't manage to get the game start. It's because of an syntax error in Sea_AI/sea.c, where you added the gunpowdermod-toggle:

<div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'>
if (CANNONPOWDER_MOD) {// TIH --> mod toggle 7-7-06
</div>

error.log says: <i>Invalid Expression</i> and <i>Missing ')'</i>.

AFAIK such phrases cannot be used in the PotC script language. It has to be:

<div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'>
if (CANNONPOWDER_MOD == 1)
</div>

Also, there's no
#define CANNONPOWDER_MOD
in BuildSettings.h by now. So even correcting this, would give another error...
</div>
For all I know, these phrases actually do work. The reason for the crash is the missing BuildSettings.h toggle. Strange that you have that problem though. The file I downloaded from the FTP did contain the correct BuildSettings.h file... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />

Swindler · Jul 10, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pieter Boelen @ Jul 10 2006, 12:03 PM) [snapback]154505[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
For all I know, these phrases actually do work. The reason for the crash is the missing BuildSettings.h toggle. Strange that you have that problem though. The file I downloaded from the FTP did contain the correct BuildSettings.h file... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />
</div>

The problem is not directly in this line. I added the toggle myself in BuidSettings.h (maybe I also just overlokked it). Still crash before game start. Afterwards I commented out the <i>if-line</i>, that starts the toggle and als the closing <i>}-bracket</i>: Error moves to another line. So somewhere must be a <i>(-bracket</i>, that's not closed.

I don't know, if it also could be in another file, affecting this one (would be odd, but who knows?). Because I merged TIH's Locations/init/Hispaniola.c with mine to preserve my retexturing work... I'll try your version now.

Pieter Boelen · Jul 10, 2006

I tried to run the game with my latest merge and the game ran just fine... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />

Swindler · Jul 10, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pieter Boelen @ Jul 10 2006, 01:47 PM) [snapback]154522[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
I tried to run the game with my latest merge and the game ran just fine... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />
</div>

Mine too. Not a single bug until now...

Quasar · Jul 10, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IncredibleHat @ Jul 10 2006, 03:33 AM) [snapback]154469[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Simply put:

Irregardless whose work it is, the more important factor is not putting in old broken code when it already got fixed. That is called REgres, not PROgress.

Maximus submitted a chunk of code that was obsolete, and based off ancient files (which had bugs in them initially). This caused the entire problem, as most all of it had already been fixed! Many things in his submission were new, with new fixes, and HAVE been merged in with what I did. His work is not being ignored. Only the broken things are <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /></div>

If you guy's feel Maximus is not doing his job right then he should not be doing it. But Maximus as done a good job up to then and put some good work in to the game.

As for Project Manager, Hook, IncredibleHat, Pirate_KK, Maximus and Swindler can't be be because your coders/bugfixers and working hard on build as it is. Pieter can.t be because he doing a lot so far, making sure the build is ready and set up right.
Project Manager the one who sort's out who do what then, you then pass it on to him and then in turn pass it on to Pieter.
There is one you forgot Keth could be Project Manager or if your not happy with Maximus take him off what he doing and make him Project Manager.
BTW you need to add some name's to the list of coders/bugfixers, SirChristopherMing, KBlack, Petros, Jack Rackham and other's maybe.

Like I said not trying to upset any one but one can see you need a Project Manager.

Pieter would you be happy with a Project Manager.?

So let's put some name's for Project Manager.

IncredibleHat · Jul 10, 2006

I tested my merge on top of a clean base install of build mod12/prebuild13 before I uploaded it. I've been playing with that very install for the past few hours, and even a few yesterday because the game actually runs well now.

The toggle exists in buildsettings.h. I put it there. Its line #64 in that archive I submitted. Plain as day.

Doing "if (VAR == 1)" is what you do when you are not sure of the variable. However since I coded in the variable, I KNOW its only true/false, and therfore "if (VAR)" is a perfectly legitimate programing tact. In fact, its the PROPER way to do things. Whenever someone puts "if (VAR == true)" that is just showing they have no idea what a boolean is.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swindler @ Jul 10 2006, 06:35 AM) [snapback]154518[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
The problem is not directly in this line. I added the toggle myself in BuidSettings.h (maybe I also just overlokked it). Still crash before game start. Afterwards I commented out the <i>if-line</i>, that starts the toggle and als the closing <i>}-bracket</i>: Error moves to another line. So somewhere must be a <i>(-bracket</i>, that's not closed.
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Actually, I didn't change "Locations/init/Hispaniola.c". That was code merged in from something Maximus did.

The file I changed was "Characters/init/Hispaniola.c"... because some characters were getting gunpowder allocated to them, when they shouldn't when the mod is off.

Pieter Boelen · Jul 10, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SilverHawk @ Jul 10 2006, 04:30 PM) [snapback]154546[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Pieter would you be happy with a Project Manager.?
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I am happy with anything that saves me work. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/whistling.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :wp

" border="0" alt="whistling.gif" />

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IncredibleHat @ Jul 10 2006, 04:42 PM) [snapback]154547[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Whenever someone puts "if (VAR == true)" that is just showing they have no idea what a boolean is.
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*Is guilty of doing just that* <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />

IncredibleHat · Jul 10, 2006

Pieter, I'm comparing the merge I did with your newest one, and it looks like you got rid of a bunch of lines that maximus had added, which I added into my merge attempt. I'm curious why? Were they supposed to be missing, and his files had them in again, and they shouldn't have been merged over? Hehe... gotta love it when people submit old files for 'fixes'... pfft.

You know what... nevermind.

Lets do this:

Post your latest merge as Pre Build13 v2... and then force everyone to use that for any new files given to you. That way you will know what base of files new submissions are coming from. If someone is too lazy to merge their work with the latest files before submitting to you for a NEWER update, then you shouldn't accept their work.

I am not going to touch this thing until I see the next update come out (v3). There are too many things that could have gone wrong with this, and I am not going to bother fixing anything in it because obviously (according to others) my fixes broke their game.

This has to be said though:
Swindler: I can't be held responsible for your game not loading because you merged something you are working on into the archive I posted which worked without a hitch on a CLEAN install.

LarryHookins · Jul 10, 2006

How many people here know anything at all about managing progrmmers? How many people here have any real world experience in it?

This kind of project takes a very special kind of management. It's not like an assembly line where you can dictate what goes on. If you piss off a modder enough, he's likely to leave. If you piss off enough of them, they're likely to break off and start their own project. One where people can do their work and not be bothered with things like project management initerfering with their ability to do their work or fix problems.

And you don't need to find someone who isn't a modder to be the project manager. Where did you get that idea? On this kind of project, programmers are too valuable a resource to waste their talents by not letting them work and making them manage instead. And someone who isn't a modder shouldn't be doing it anyway, as they have no real idea what's going on.

The process works as it's set up now. Sometimes you'll have glitches like the recent one. That wouldn't be solved by having a project manager. All it would have done is prevent bug fixes from being made.

If IncredibleHat is right about Maximus submitting changes based on obsolete code, then the problem is easy to find. It's less easy to fix. It's not Pieter's job, or anyone elses for that matter, to try to merge changes from obsolete code into new code. That has to be done by the modder who made the changes. The best Pieter can do is refuse to incorporate files that aren't based on the newest code. Which he should be doing anyway.

I don't know about everyone else, but no one's going to dictate to me what I can or cannot work on. If I know someone else is fixing a specific problem, then I'll be very careful not to step on their code. IF... I know they're working on it. And just because someone else is working on a specific fix doesn't mean I won't be doing my own version of the fix. I just won't submit it until I've seen their final code, and not even then if they've fixed the problem.

As for the boarding casualties problem, that code is so thoroughly screwed up that I'm redesigning how it works. But that doesn't mean someone else shouldn't be working in the same code on the same problem. There's always the possibility that I might abandon the project, or that I might not be able to pull it off the way I want, or even that I might "get run over by a truck." If someone else submits changes to that code before I do, then they should be incorporated in an update. The worst that can happen is that they'll be rendered obsolete by my fixes. The best is that they might fix the problem better than I can. And if they're useful, I might incorporate them into my code.

I say let the process go on like it is now. No project manager besides Pieter. After all, he's already doing the job. And I think we're all happy enough with his work that we want him to continue. It's up to Pieter himself to make changes in the process if he feels they are necessary.

Hook

Swindler · Jul 10, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IncredibleHat @ Jul 10 2006, 04:42 PM) [snapback]154547[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
I tested my merge on top of a clean base install of build mod12/prebuild13 before I uploaded it. I've been playing with that very install for the past few hours, and even a few yesterday because the game actually runs well now.
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Quite not sure, what I downloaded and installed <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :shrug

" border="0" alt="dunno.gif" /> . When I installed Pieter's attempt afterwards, I even couldn't find the file I downloaded anymore on FTP. But I'm testing Pieter's attempt now and so far it works.

IncredibleHat · Jul 10, 2006

I did a compare on his from mine. He added a lot of useful comments for things that were confusing. However everything I did was still the same.

He also put in a couple chunks of code from maximus's stuff, and also removed some chunks of code I had merged in from maximus' stuff. Something to do with the trade book.

None of it though was a bug fix, or show stopper bug like you mentioned.

I'm not sure why that first file you downloaded didn't work. Very odd! Wonder if it had to do with that recent FTP burp that people experienced... and you got a 'partial zip file' ... which, the way zip works, it will still decompress, even though its missing half the stuff!

Coordinating our efforts

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