Behaviour of Surrendered Captains

[Armada]

I recently started a new Free Play game with the intention of following a Privateer career path, and quickly noticed a pattern emerging. For three battles in a row, I managed to force an enemy ship to surrender, and in each instance, my only choice was to fight the enemy captain in a duel. I was easily cut down every time.

Now, obviously there are several factors at play:

• I'm playing on the second-lowest difficulty
• It's early in the game, so my fencing skill isn't very high and I'm lacking a lot of abilities.
• The enemy ships were of the same Tier and around the same size as mine
• The enemy captains probably had better equipment than me

My short-term solution was to try another new game on the lowest difficulty and pick a more fencing-oriented background, and I had less trouble that time.

But the questions remains, is it fair that "surrendered" captains should always duel you this early on?
I seem to recall this being based on reputation (please correct me if I'm wrong), but if you go to the trouble of forcing a surrender early in the game, surely death by duel is a bit harsh, at times?

And to be clear, if this were a normal boarding action and I was killed then, I would consider that my own fault, because I deliberately took that risk. With surrendered captains, it doesn't feel that way.

In addition, I'm not saying that a surrendered ship should always equal a "free win", per se. Perhaps some dialogue options to talk your way out of a duel would help, for instance.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

But the questions remains, is it fair that "surrendered" captains should always duel you this early on?

I think the answer is a clear: "No, it's not".

I seem to recall this being based on reputation (please correct me if I'm wrong), but if you go to the trouble of forcing a surrender early in the game, surely death by duel is a bit harsh, at times?

If my memory serves me right, it is triggered by the relative difference between your own leadership skill and that of the enemy captain.

Any thoughts on this?

The relevant code is in PROGRAM\DIALOGS\Cabinfight_dialog.c and is very much due for a rewrite (it's ancient mod-added stuff).
Ideally I want reputation and/or fame to have a big influence on this.

 

[Grey Roger]

Except, of course, early on neither reputation nor fame are going to be high enough to have any effect. (In fact, I hadn't looked at the code and wrongly assumed that it was based on fame. Early on I'm a pipsqueak captain, about as famous as a small piece of seaweed and about as likely to get a proud captain to surrender.)

If it is based on Leadership then, early on, you probably don't have enough Leadership to take over the enemy ship. So, perhaps arrange so that the captain is more likely to duel you if you want to take the ship and less likely if you only want to take the cargo, especially if the cargo isn't very valuable. Merchant captains should be less likely to duel than naval captains, again especially if the cargo isn't very valuable - he would probably fight to defend a hold full of silk but not a hold full of cotton.

But I routinely play as a privateer, on Seadog level, and therefore also routinely need to duel enemy captains. This has not bothered me much, except if they're carrying a big sword - I hit him, I hit him, I hit him, he hits me, I die. Solution - be carrying a big sword of my own and have at least some Fencing skill. A couple of dungeon raids, particularly the one in Port Royale or the Barbados cave, provide both. If you're a nobody captain with a toothpick sword then of course the enemy captain isn't going to respect you...

As for reputation. If you have at least Matey reputation, the enemy captain may indeed respect you more. Mainly because you've been to Kralendijk and have Nicholas Sharp's sword.

More seriously, if you are Dashing or Hero then an enemy ship plus its captain should be more likely to surrender. If you're Bloody Terror or Horror of the High Seas then they should be less likely to surrender but the fights against both crew and captain should be easier, the reason being it's hard to fight when you're shaking with fright...

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Except, of course, early on neither reputation nor fame are going to be high enough to have any effect.

Very true.

Though I didn't say yet what kind of effect. Maybe the duels would only start as your Fame goes UP and/or your reputation is very different from that of the enemy captain.
Which means that in the early game, you should not be met with duels every time. Instead, they would start occurring more often only once you start making a name for yourself.
Would that make some sense?

If it is based on Leadership then, early on, you probably don't have enough Leadership to take over the enemy ship. So, perhaps arrange so that the captain is more likely to duel you if you want to take the ship and less likely if you only want to take the cargo, especially if the cargo isn't very valuable. Merchant captains should be less likely to duel than naval captains, again especially if the cargo isn't very valuable - he would probably fight to defend a hold full of silk but not a hold full of cotton.

Good ideas. I like it!

Could that possibly mean that commandeering ships in the early game becomes less feasible?
I personally wouldn't mind that as an effect, since it might encourage players to buy a few ships before switching to capturing.
But I'm not sure you'd like that yourself?

As for reputation. If you have at least Matey reputation, the enemy captain may indeed respect you more. Mainly because you've been to Kralendijk and have Nicholas Sharp's sword.

Not much of "ingame respect". More of a higher chance to get himself killed though on the other end of that awesome piece of steel.

More seriously, if you are Dashing or Hero then an enemy ship plus its captain should be more likely to surrender. If you're Bloody Terror or Horror of the High Seas then they should be less likely to surrender but the fights against both crew and captain should be easier, the reason being it's hard to fight when you're shaking with fright...

I'd very much like to implement that. Would be so very cool!

 

[Grey Roger]

Though I didn't say yet what kind of effect. Maybe the duels would only start as your Fame goes UP and/or your reputation is very different from that of the enemy captain.
Which means that in the early game, you should not be met with duels every time. Instead, they would start occurring more often only once you start making a name for yourself.
Would that make some sense?

Not really. As I said, if you're a pathetic nobody that he's never heard of then he'll be reluctant to surrender to you. If he's heard of you and you've been successfully taking prize ships then he knows he's unlikely to win the fight.

Could that possibly mean that commandeering ships in the early game becomes less feasible?
I personally wouldn't mind that as an effect, since it might encourage players to buy a few ships before switching to capturing.
But I'm not sure you'd like that yourself?

It's already less feasible early in the game, partly because enemy captains are more likely to duel you but mainly because you can't take prize ships until you have Leadership 5. The solution to the first problem is Nicholas Sharp's sword and the solution to the second problem is Fred Bob.

Not much of "ingame respect". More of a higher chance to get himself killed though on the other end of that awesome piece of steel.

Well, yes. You wanted reputation to have an effect on his chance of surrender. If you have "Matey" reputation or better then he has a very good reason to surrender.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Not really. As I said, if you're a pathetic nobody that he's never heard of then he'll be reluctant to surrender to you. If he's heard of you and you've been successfully taking prize ships then he knows he's unlikely to win the fight.

Depends. If he's a Hero and you're a famous Bloody Terror, he might pick a fight anyway on principle.
Likewise if the reverse is true.

It's already less feasible early in the game, partly because enemy captains are more likely to duel you but mainly because you can't take prize ships until you have Leadership 5.

I was mainly referring to swaping ships, which is instantly feasible from the start of the game.

Well, yes. You wanted reputation to have an effect on his chance of surrender. If you have "Matey" reputation or better then he has a very good reason to surrender.

Your logic suggests that the sword you have equipped will factor in on the surrender chance.
Actually, that could be a potentially interesting bonus of a "presentation sword". As opposed to those actually having substantially higher stats.
Just a thought....

 

[Grey Roger]

Depends. If he's a Hero and you're a famous Bloody Terror, he might pick a fight anyway on principle.
Likewise if the reverse is true.

Yes, that makes sense.

I was mainly referring to swaping ships, which is instantly feasible from the start of the game.

Perhaps trigger the duel only after the initial dialog giving choices of what you'll do. If you say "Let's be civilised" and offer to let him go after taking some of his cargo, he may be less likely to duel then if you pick one of the choices which leads to you taking the ship, whether by swap or by putting a prize captain aboard. Anyway, at the moment swapping ships is also only available from the start of the game if you duel the enemy captain, so no change there then.

Your logic suggests that the sword you have equipped will factor in on the surrender chance.
Actually, that could be a potentially interesting bonus of a "presentation sword". As opposed to those actually having substantially higher stats.
Just a thought....

I was joking about that. The serious suggestion about him surrendering or not, based on reputation, was the one involving rather more extreme reputations than "Matey".

The presentation sword might work to your advantage or disadvantage. If you're carrying it then either you've earned it by doing great things for your nation and being given it, or you've made a lot of money and bought it, or you've taken it from a formidable enemy. So the enemy captain might be intimidated. On the other hand, it's shiny and the enemy captain might want it for himself...

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Perhaps trigger the duel only after the initial dialog giving choices of what you'll do. If you say "Let's be civilised" and offer to let him go after taking some of his cargo, he may be less likely to duel then if you pick one of the choices which leads to you taking the ship, whether by swap or by putting a prize captain aboard. Anyway, at the moment swapping ships is also only available from the start of the game if you duel the enemy captain, so no change there then.

I think that is a very, very good idea. Definitely sounds like the way forward to me!

I was joking about that. The serious suggestion about him surrendering or not, based on reputation, was the one involving rather more extreme reputations than "Matey".

The presentation sword might work to your advantage or disadvantage. If you're carrying it then either you've earned it by doing great things for your nation and being given it, or you've made a lot of money and bought it, or you've taken it from a formidable enemy. So the enemy captain might be intimidated. On the other hand, it's shiny and the enemy captain might want it for himself...

Indeed let's skip that idea for now. I was barely even half-serious myself there.

 

[Tingyun]

Interesting discussion and ideas here!

One thought to add: there should be some option to refuse a duel and have the captain killed, no? At some substantial cost to your reputation perhaps?

Because I can't see every bloody pirate offering his prey a sword and a chance for a fair fight.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

One thought to add: there should be some option to refuse a duel and have the captain killed, no? At some substantial cost to your reputation perhaps?

Because I can't see every bloody pirate offering his prey a sword and a chance for a fair fight.

Not sure. At the moment at least, I get the impression that the captain has been hiding in his cabin with his weapons, waiting the ambush the player.
Of course that makes the player a bit of an idiot to approach without any officers or crewmembers....

But then.... if you can bypass the duel, what would be the advantage of having the duel in the first place?
Once it becomes hard to increase and maintain your reputation (like it currently isn't), perhaps it could be a good way to become/stay a real Hero.
After all, giving the captain a chance to defend himself and putting yourself at risk is quite a noble thing to do.

Alternatively, NOT giving that chance would send you on your way to become a Bloody Terror.
Eventually I do intend for that to also give advantages, instead of just generally being a bad thing (as is currently mostly the case).
There does need to be a "neutral action" then instead, which could be the "Take as Prisoner" option.

Important related discussions:
Planned Feature - Balancing and Repurposing Reputation Gain | PiratesAhoy!
Planned Feature - Fame to Affect Gameplay in Multiple Ways | PiratesAhoy!
These are still on my wish-list to tackle. Sometime.
When we've finally managed to sort out all concerning mod issues so that it is actually OK for me to try new stuff instead of fixing old issues.
(Is that ever going to happen? I don't know. Have to keep hoping.... )

 

[Grey Roger]

Not sure. At the moment at least, I get the impression that the captain has been hiding in his cabin with his weapons, waiting the ambush the player.
Of course that makes the player a bit of an idiot to approach without any officers or crewmembers....

Your crew are dealing with the enemy crew, who have surrendered. They're also waiting to see you fight the enemy captain. Here's where you prove yourself to your crew. If you lose, they dump your body over the side. Then they pick a new captain and he gets the same chance. Repeat until they find someone who can beat the enemy captain or they run out of candidates. Being inside a shark, you won't be a witness to any of this.

But then.... if you can bypass the duel, what would be the advantage of having the duel in the first place?
Once it becomes hard to increase and maintain your reputation (like it currently isn't), perhaps it could be a good way to become/stay a real Hero.
After all, giving the captain a chance to defend himself and putting yourself at risk is quite a noble thing to do.

Except that later on they're more likely to surrender so you don't need to bother. You do, however, have the option to execute the captain when he's a prisoner inside your hold, and that's perhaps where the reputation boost can come in if you offer to duel him instead of just sending him to the shark. (What does get you a reputation boost here is if you offer to release him for free instead of demanding a ransom.)

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Your crew are dealing with the enemy crew, who have surrendered. They're also waiting to see you fight the enemy captain. Here's where you prove yourself to your crew. If you lose, they dump your body over the side. Then they pick a new captain and he gets the same chance. Repeat until they find someone who can beat the enemy captain or they run out of candidates. Being inside a shark, you won't be a witness to any of this.

So.... should the duel be skippable or not?
I had the idea of simply allowing three options:
1. Kill captain: reputation decreases
2. Take captain as prisoner: nothing happens
3. Agree to duel the captain: reputation increases

Based on your suggestion, I am however thinking that "refusing the duel" means "crew morale drops".
At least for Pirate/Privateer players who use Divide the Plunder Mode.
Your crew description doesn't sound appropriate for Naval Officers or honest Merchants.

Except that later on they're more likely to surrender so you don't need to bother. You do, however, have the option to execute the captain when he's a prisoner inside your hold, and that's perhaps where the reputation boost can come in if you offer to duel him instead of just sending him to the shark. (What does get you a reputation boost here is if you offer to release him for free instead of demanding a ransom.)

True.... In other words: Options aplenty!

You'd be welcome to suggest a "dialog tree" together with their consequences, advantages and disadvantages.
I imagine this could indeed differ depending on whether it is the "Cabinfight" or "Prisoned" dialog and could also be different depending on the salary mode.

 

[Tingyun]

I really don't think your pirate or privateer or navy crew is going to require you to personally and honorably fight the Captain, they might like it, but they won't require it.. And if the enemy crew surrendered, you don't need every last one of your crew to secure then, you overwhelmed them, you can spare a couple of men.

Basically, this forces the player to always be a master swordsman. Was every famous captain a master swordsman? No, I'm pretty sure not.

I looked up several articles on the history of prize ships and prize law. I can find no mention of dualing, AT ALL. If it happened, it was so exceedingly rare to be the stuff you could probably only dig up an anecdote or two out of the entire history of the period.

Basically, it being in the game can be fun, but it should not be the common state of affairs to the point where a player cannot bypass it.

I would actually implement it this way: small chance the enemy captain challenges you to a dual, and then if you refuse, small hit to crew morale (no hit for navy captain or merchant captain, only 1 for privateer captain, and 4 or 5 for pirate captain). No reputation change at all.

If you accept, then increase crew morale (2 for all roles), and give a slight bit of fame.

And duals shouldn't be the normal event, most captains should surrender and want to preserve their lives even early game.

Or something like that.

EDIT: the reason for no rep change is accepting the dual could easily be consistent with a bloody terror pirate or a hero, it goes both ways. So morale is better.

 

[Grey Roger]

So.... should the duel be skippable or not?
I had the idea of simply allowing three options:
1. Kill captain: reputation decreases
2. Take captain as prisoner: nothing happens
3. Agree to duel the captain: reputation increases

Based on your suggestion, I am however thinking that "refusing the duel" means "crew morale drops".
At least for Pirate/Privateer players who use Divide the Plunder Mode.
Your crew description doesn't sound appropriate for Naval Officers or honest Merchants.

Naval officers have to fight the duel. Their honour as naval captains demands it.
Honest merchants shouldn't be taking prizes unless they have a LoM, in which case, see "Privateer". (Crew payment method should not be a factor.) The exception is if the enemy is a pirate, in which case you're stuck with the fight because he's a pirate.

The problem with your idea is that I'd always go for 2, bypassing the duel and allowing the future options of getting a ransom or getting a reputation increase by releasing him for free. Probably so would anyone else who doesn't want to fight the duel and isn't trying to become Horror of the High Seas.

True.... In other words: Options aplenty!

You'd be welcome to suggest a "dialog tree" together with their consequences, advantages and disadvantages.
I imagine this could indeed differ depending on whether it is the "Cabinfight" or "Prisoned" dialog and could also be different depending on the salary mode.

I'm not sure why payment mode would be a factor. The only reason a pirate / privateer is paying by salary is that he hasn't made enough money to be forced to pay by division of plunder; if he's passed that point then he's probably advanced enough that the duel isn't a problem.

Anyway:
Captain asks what you intend to do:

1. Let him go after taking his cargo
   1. Based on cargo value, your fame, your reputation, the captain agrees. Possible reputation boost if you keep your word.
      
   2. If the cargo is too valuable or you have an evil reputation and he knows it, the captain fights.
2. Keep his ship and he can remain in charge, now as your officer. (Only available if you can accept a new passenger.)
   
   1. See his skills, negotiate salary, accept him. Possible option to release him and his ship after you've made port and sold its cargo, then get reputation boost.
      
   2. You don't like his skills or his salary offer. Back to beginning.
3. Keep his ship, he becomes your prisoner. (Only available if you can accept a new passenger.)
   
   1. Based on ship + cargo value, your fame, your reputation, the captain agrees.
   2. If the cargo is too valuable or the ship is beyond your normal command ability, or if you are evil and he knows it, the captain fights.
4. Cut down the crew like dogs.
   1. Automatic duel. Possible reputation loss (be careful you don't lose reputation if you're forced to this point, e.g. captain of the Mefisto may be programmed to prevent any other option).

Basically, pretty much the dialog that exists now, except have it before the captain decides to duel, then have him decide to duel based on what you're going to gain if you win. So you're not going to get a big merchant full of gold without a fight, but a lugger carrying cotton will almost certainly surrender. Or, if you're in a 6th rate frigate and you've just emptied your entire stock of grapeshot into a battleship, you'll certainly have to fight the duel; if it's the other way round, the enemy 6th rate frigate captain will almost certainly surrender. If you're evil, have the captain do a fame check, then automatically duel if he passes because he doesn't trust you not to kill him anyway.

And precede the whole lot by a check on reputation. As per your suggestion, if he's Dashing / Hero and you're Bloody Terror / Horror of the High Seas (or vice versa), then he automatically duels you. You get a bonus to your reputation in the relevant direction, i.e. if you're the villain then lose some points, if you're the hero then gain some points - you're now even more villainous / heroic.

 

[Grey Roger]

Basically, this forces the player to always be a master swordsman. Was every famous captain a master swordsman? No, I'm pretty sure not

It may not be 100% realistic but it's a game mechanism. It prevents you from leaping ahead early on. Bear in mind that there are some very nice "versatile" ships, i.e. ships which can be either trader or warship. So, you're in a tier 6 tiddler and you find one of these ships, e.g. a Heavy East Indiaman. This one is a merchant, so its crew starts off with low morale, and after a few broadsides of grapeshot it surrenders. The only thing now standing between you and an immediate upgrade from the little tier 6 ship to the nice tier 4 ship is the duel with the captain. Remove that, and it becomes trivially easy to get the ship of your choice very early. (The reason I mention tier 6 and a Heavy East Indiaman is that you get a tier 6 ship very early in my "Ardent" storyline. About the first thing I do is go looking for a better ship, preferably a Heavy East Indiaman, most preferably one acting as a merchant. It gets a lot of grapeshot and hopefully surrenders. I don't mind having to duel the enemy captain in order to win that prize.)

 

[Pieter Boelen]

The problem with your idea is that I'd always go for 2, bypassing the duel and allowing the future options of getting a ransom or getting a reputation increase by releasing him for free. Probably so would anyone else who doesn't want to fight the duel and isn't trying to become Horror of the High Seas.

Assuming nothing else changes, then that makes sense.
My suggestion there relies quite massively on the updated Reputation system that I have in mind.
And probably the Prisoned dialog would need to be updated so they both work together in a sensible way, rather them being their separate things (like now).

I'm not sure why payment mode would be a factor. The only reason a pirate / privateer is paying by salary is that he hasn't made enough money to be forced to pay by division of plunder; if he's passed that point then he's probably advanced enough that the duel isn't a problem.

My logic was that if you're on Divide the Plunder, your crew should care who is the captain.
If they're on salary, it's none of their bloody business! They should just do as they're told.
And as long as you aren't a terrible captain, they shouldn't care about your "personal honour" or "whether you're tough enough".

Anyway:

To ensure we're on the same page, should we assume the captain's dialog to be as it is now, e.g. with him still having his own weapons and waiting for you?
Or would it be after he surrendered and, for the duel to occur, he should be given his weapons back?

Let him go after taking his cargo

1. Based on cargo value, your fame, your reputation, the captain agrees. Possible reputation boost if you keep your word.
   
2. If the cargo is too valuable or you have an evil reputation and he knows it, the captain fights.

Sounds good.

Keep his ship and he can remain in charge, now as your officer. (Only available if you can accept a new companion.)

1. See his skills, negotiate salary, accept him. Possible option to release him and his ship after you've made port and sold its cargo, then get reputation boost.
   
2. You don't like his skills or his salary offer. Back to beginning.

I made a slight correction to the above.

Actually, can you hire captains as companion? Or only as officer? With, of course, the option of assigning him as captain again straight away.
I remember there was a bug with "immediate companion" and can't remember if that was ever fixed.

In the end, that doesn't really matter. Either way, it is a path that leads to you being able to capture the ship.
Getting an extra officer is mainly a "bonus", isn't it?

Keep his ship, he becomes your prisoner. (Only available if you can accept a new passenger.)

1. Based on ship + cargo value, your fame, your reputation, the captain agrees.
2. If the cargo is too valuable or the ship is beyond your normal command ability, or if you are evil and he knows it, the captain fights.

This path also leads to you being able to capture the ship and cargo, so should it perhaps be merged/made similar to the above?

Does sound good in general! Thanks for writing that.

 

[Tingyun]

Grey Roger: good point, but you do win that dual, right? So it doesn't actually operate as much of a check in advancement, it just forces the player to do a bit of preparation to make sure their Captain is good at swordplay. And I am not sure why we should force that--if players want to opt out and roleplay a different sort of Captain who isn't a terror at personal combat.

So if this would be justified primarily as a mechanism to hold back ship tier hopping, but it doesn't really do that in practice (because you can win that dual anyway by preparing a bit), the right answer is to instead beef up the morale of merchant ships, the talents of their captains, give them more escorts, or otherwise make them tougher to take on ship to ship. Although I'm not sure if this is a game where we can hold the player back effectively at all.

I certainly agree that dueling should stay in the game, and can be fun. I just want it not be the overwhelming norm, and the opt-out shouldn't be too costly (small hit to morale), because most naval officers and privateers would probably just be taking control of the ship under the orderly operation of prize law, not engaging in some life or death struggle. At least, the player should have that option, if they want it, especially since it is one of the fantasy/Hollywood parts of the mod.

EDIT: I should say I generally like the dialogue ideas you posted! I just want the player to be left with a way out, and the dualing dialogues to be on a random chance that is somewhat less likely than not. But either way, your ideas seem like a good improvement to the current system.

 

[Homo eructus]

Captains of surrendered ships should stay surrendered unless you do something outrageous like ordering to cut down all the crew. If the captain was willling to defend his cargo, he shouldn't have surrendered in the first place. No honour demands of anyone to duel the captain if the ship has already surrendered, in fact the surrendered captain attacking you is what is incredibly dishonourable (it could happen if the surrendered captain has very low reputation).

Make it so it's more difficult to get the ship to surrender in the first place, but once it does, it's game over for the captain (with the exceptions above)

 

[Pieter Boelen]

That does actually make sense, @Homo eructus.

Might fit in with my idea of the duel being something that the player chooses to do, as an "honourable move".
But then.... it also invariably leads to the enemy captain's death, because if it doesn't, it's Game Over.

 

[Dat Scharger]

After a few British warships helped me gunning down two pirates (Both Tier 5) and forced one to surrender, I wanted to capture it, talked to the captain, started the duel and he killed me in one hit after I blocked one attack.
With full health.
On Landlubber.
I ragequitted.

Because of that, I suggest a somewhat dynamic difficulty for duels should you fight one.

Simply said, determine the enemy's strenght to the Tier he commands, so for example, you should have no problems beating a Tier 8-captain, even with a starter-character. But Tier 1 should require Highend-Gear to defeat, since it's a hardened navy-captain (I think, pirates don't use lineships) and no filthy rat.

With that frustrating power discrepancy, I'm wondering if capturing ships is even recommended at the moment, when you're just effortlessly killed.