Solved Build 14 Beta 4 Master Plan

[Pieter Boelen]

At the moment, my plan of attack is pretty much like this:
1. Get ALL sidequests working properly in the Nelson storyline without having any sidequest code in its actual storyline folder (apart from both_reaction.c)
2. Move this both_reaction.c code to the general PROGRAM\QUESTS folder so that this now works in ALL storylines
3. Ensure that same-name quest cases that exist in the storyline folder that preference over the shared file
4. Figure out which sidequests may interfere with which storylines and/or which ones may already be there in modified form
5. Disable those sidequests specifically per storyline or enable them only AFTER the main quest has completed
6. Merge all Free Play scenarios together into one single Free Play with Changing Nation Relations ON storyline, e.g. Nelson+BFF+LaCroix+Devlin
7. Rewrite sidequests to prevent bugs, e.g. unreliable Vigila Mendez and Artois Voysey quest loop
8. Rewrite/expand main quests, e.g. add a short extention to Hornblower to explain the Atropos, tie up loose ends and remove quest officers as appropriate

But for the time being my focus is still on #1 which means that I cannot really get started on doing much beyond that just yet.
It would be useful to figure out sidequest interference with main quests in advance (as per point #4), but this is easier to test when all sidequests are actually available in all storylines.
Until that time, we'll be doing half a job on it which probably wastes time and effort.

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ORIGINAL OPENING POST:

Pieter, I know we have had some exchange about BFF relations with other nations and I have been thinking about that a lot and I have some further thoughts. Do you want me to post it here or send a PM?

Here would be great.

 

[Jason]

Ahoy Pieter,

I have been thinking about the opening relations in BFF a lot since I raised this issue some time ago. I have noticed that even though I have my game set to variable relations, McMaster's relations with France and Spain remain constantly hostile even when France and/or Spain make peace with England. I think that might just be an issue that is not part of the intent.

Now as someone suggested, I think that knowing you are a British mutineer would make France and Spain distrustful buy not necessarily hostile. They also might be willing to take advantage of your hostile relations with England so wary as opposed to hostile might be a more appropriate place to set the opening French and Spanish relations. Then their attitude toward you will be determined by your behavior toward them. If, for example you wanted a LOM from one of them, you wouldn't have to pay twice once for forgiveness and once for the letter , even when you haven't done anything hostile to them.

That seems closer to the reality that might have existed at the time and that is my suggestion for the opening relations.

Also I think that it might be worth looking at the question of the changing relations.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I have been thinking about the opening relations in BFF a lot since I raised this issue some time ago. I have noticed that even though I have my game set to variable relations, McMaster's relations with France and Spain remain constantly hostile even when France and/or Spain make peace with England. I think that might just be an issue that is not part of the intent.

At the moment the player relations to other nations is completely independent of relation changes between different nations.
The only exception is if you are a commissioned navy officer, where your relations now are linked to that of your served nation.

I agree that this doesn't make all that much logical sense, but that is the way the game has always worked. The player nationality has very little meaning indeed.
Of course this should be changed even if you aren't a commissioned navy officer, but that is still on the to-do list for when my current projects are completed.
We did discuss this before with @Grey Roger and would indeed like to see this modified some time soon. Ish.

Now as someone suggested, I think that knowing you are a British mutineer would make France and Spain distrustful buy not necessarily hostile. They also might be willing to take advantage of your hostile relations with England so wary as opposed to hostile might be a more appropriate place to set the opening French and Spanish relations. Then their attitude toward you will be determined by your behavior toward them. If, for example you wanted a LOM from one of them, you wouldn't have to pay twice once for forgiveness and once for the letter , even when you haven't done anything hostile to them.

While something like that is easily done for a single case, eventually I want the BBF start to work for any starting nation and in any time period.
Setting your nation relations to that of your served nation and then setting your served nation hostile because of your mutiny is relatively simple.
But setting all other hostile nations wary to you would make it a bit more complicated. Alternatively, we could set EVERY nation wary and only your original served nation hostile.
Doesn't that sound dull though? Only one hostile nation altogether?

 

[Jason]

At the moment the player relations to other nations is completely independent of relation changes between different nations.
The only exception is if you are a commissioned navy officer, where your relations now are linked to that of your served nation.

But in that case if you as player plunder enough ships of a neutral nation the nations turns hostile to you right?

I agree that this doesn't make all that much logical sense, but that is the way the game has always worked. The player nationality has very little meaning indeed.
Of course this should be changed even if you aren't a commissioned navy officer, but that is still on the to-do list for when my current projects are completed.
We did discuss this before with @Grey Roger and would indeed like to see this modified some time soon. Ish.

While something like that is easily done for a single case, eventually I want the BBF start to work for any starting nation and in any time period.
Setting your nation relations to that of your served nation and then setting your served nation hostile because of your mutiny is relatively simple.
But setting all other hostile nations wary to you would make it a bit more complicated. Alternatively, we could set EVERY nation wary and only your original served nation hostile.
Doesn't that sound dull though? Only one hostile nation altogether?

Well I think that is you start with only one nation hostile you get to pick your enemies by your actions and a case could be made for that. I think that when I first played this it was England, hostile, France and Spain wary and Portugal and Holland neutral but maybe I am remembering it wrong.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Well I think that is you start with only one nation hostile you get to pick your enemies by your actions and a case could be made for that. I think that when I first played this it was England, hostile, France and Spain wary and Portugal and Holland neutral but maybe I am remembering it wrong.

At the moment you do indeed pretty much have that if you start as Personal Nation on the Standard storyline.
I am thinking to perhaps keep that so that if you start as your own free agent that way, then everybody (except the pirates) is OK with you.
If you start as a mutineer (like in Brave Black Flag), you would have your selected nation be hostile to you instead.

That means adding a new player type (mutineer) which triggers the "free, but reversed relations" behaviour.
Which means that perhaps BFF can be joined with Nelson so that you get the simple Nelson start on all player types, but the mutineer one if you select that one.

 

[Grey Roger]

One way to look at it is that everyone should know who you are, know you're no longer loyal to Britain, so everyone should be friendly unless you give them reason not to be. That seems to be what is being requested here.

Another is that by betraying your country and hoisting a non-standard flag, you're now a pirate, so everyone should be hostile unless you give them reason not to be. This is probably more realistic. (Especially since the scenario starts you off as having taken refuge with the pirates of Nevis.)

Or Spain doesn't care how you feel about Britain, it still regards you as British and in addition you're untrustworthy. So if Spain and Britain sign a peace treaty, you're untrustworthy and aren't expected to honour it. The game does provide you with the option to do your own deal with Spain, though. You go to the Spanish governor of your choice, crave forgiveness and pay lots of money. Spain is now wary; they still don't fully trust you but if you renege then they simply resume hunting you and now they've got your money too. You can cement your relationship with Spain by paying some more money and getting a Letter of Marque. Basically, you can pick your enemies - and your friends - by your actions.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Indeed in the end it seems that the starting relations aren't overly crucial. As long as what happens after the game start makes sense.

 

[Jason]

Indeed in the end it seems that the starting relations aren't overly crucial. As long as what happens after the game start makes sense.

This is a good discussion. I think you are right Pieter. And, Grey Roger is correct you can always buy forgiveness, etc,

I just seems wrong to have to pay all that money money when I haven't plundered a single ship or town.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I just seems wrong to have to pay all that money money when I haven't plundered a single ship or town.

Just think that your character didn't just spring into being and probably has some sort of history with the various nations already.

 

[Jason]

That is good! Ok I yield. Thanks again for all you do.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

By the way, I will keep your suggestions in mind. It'll probably end up linked with using your Personal Nation as starting nationality.

However, I can't start tweaking the storyline start conditions until after the sidequests are all working independently from the selected storyline.
Once those are working, I'll definitely be looking at tweaking things some more. I want to merge Nelson+BFF+LaCroix into one single Free Play storyline. Perhaps add in Devlin too so they all go together depending on your choices in Select Storyline.

 

[Grey Roger]

I just seems wrong to have to pay all that money money when I haven't plundered a single ship or town.

You don't have to pay anything. It just means you need to steer clear of Spanish and French ships, and do all your trading at Portuguese and Dutch ports. Once you've raised the money, you have the option to make new friends. (Attacking the enemies of Spain and/or France might improve your relations with them, though I don't know if it improves enough to rise from hostile to wary.)

At the moment you do indeed pretty much have that if you start as Personal Nation on the Standard storyline.
I am thinking to perhaps keep that so that if you start as your own free agent that way, then everybody (except the pirates) is OK with you.
If you start as a mutineer (like in Brave Black Flag), you would have your selected nation be hostile to you instead.

I like this idea. To me, that's the whole point of personal flag - you're not tied to a nation, you're neither friendly nor hostile to any of them, so you're free to pick your friends or enemies as you choose. Totally unrealistic, of course; in reality, any ship flying a custom flag and no national flag would be assumed to be a pirate and treated as such, but it makes for more interesting gameplay for those who don't want to be aligned to a nation and don't want to be everyone's enemy as a pirate.

BBF is a very specific start in which you're a former citizen of a nation, now turned renegade - neither your background nor your treason endear you to everyone! (For added amusement, have the renegade start off in a port of his former nation, which is now hostile - and I am remembering the idea of making hostile ports more "interesting". ) The whole point of BBF, to me, is to start off with the relations of your chosen nation except that you are hostile to your nation. Which is why, when there was talk of merging all the free play starts into one massively customisable free play, I suggested keeping some sort of BBF-style start with precisely that set-up.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

BBF is a very specific start in which you're a former citizen of a nation, now turned renegade - neither your background nor your treason endear you to everyone! (For added amusement, have the renegade start off in a port of his former nation, which is now hostile - and I am remembering the idea of making hostile ports more "interesting". )

Indeed I am hoping to accomplish that some time. Would be fun!

The whole point of BBF, to me, is to start off with the relations of your chosen nation except that you are hostile to your nation. Which is why, when there was talk of merging all the free play starts into one massively customisable free play, I suggested keeping some sort of BBF-style start with precisely that set-up.

Yup, I'm hoping to give the various professions you can choose at the start of the game actually be as different as possible.
Perhaps not all will get a unique start but at least BBF and LaCroix are one that can be used for sure.
"Commissioned" may not have a unique start (yet?) but at least it makes for quite different gameplay altogether.

Can "Devlin" be linked with any specific starting profession? Or should we trigger that one if you start with a female character?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I created this thread from some other discussions here and there so we can talk about my "master plan" for Beta 3.5 at the moment.
Refer to the opening post. Ideas and suggestions would be welcome.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Today I had a bit of an idea and I might just go ahead and work on that somewhere this week:

Basically by removing multiple free play storylines, only one will remain.
That one would retain all starting options, but you would need to know in advance what options to select to trigger them.
For example, to play as Hornblower you must know to select him, change the starting date and choose a different ship.
This will get only more complicated when the other starting scenarios are added to the same storyline.

So here's my thought: There are several "named" characters available in Select Storyline, which are defined as such in initModels.c .
How about linking those models not just to a name, but allow them to have pre-defined professions, ship and starting date as well?
Then basically you can select different pre-defined scenarios by choosing a character, but you would still be able to override its default settings.

Players could also easily create their own, which would show up in the "name characters list" without cluttering up the actual storylines selection.
And all of that without requiring separate storylines; everything can be added to the same one and, in fact,
would work on multiple of the pre-written storylines except those with locked scenarios like Woodes Rogers and Bartolomeu.

So how do you guys like that idea? And any additional suggestions to build on this further?

 

[Grey Roger]

Hornblower isn't a free-play, it's a fixed storyline. I'd prefer keeping all the story storylines, including the partial free play ones such as "Tales of a Sea Hawk" and "Assassin". For me one of the great things about Build 14 is the stories - free play is a way of keeping going with all the goodies I've collected during a storyline, but once the main quest is played out it's not long before I quit that campaign and start something different.

But having presets to automatically select some specific characters for a grand unified pure free play storyline does sound good. Nelson, Aubrey and Le Croix, for a start. Perhaps also something for the Early Explorers period, e.g. Francis Drake.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Hornblower isn't a free-play, it's a fixed storyline. I'd prefer keeping all the story storylines, including the partial free play ones such as "Tales of a Sea Hawk" and "Assassin". For me one of the great things about Build 14 is the stories - free play is a way of keeping going with all the goodies I've collected during a storyline, but once the main quest is played out it's not long before I quit that campaign and start something different.

Uh? Nobody said anything about getting rid of the proper existing storylines! We want to go forward, not backwards....

What I want in the end is to have a selection of:
- Standard Storyline
- Assassin
- Bartolomeu
- Hornblower
- Jack Sparrow
- Woodes Rogers
- Free Play (= Nelson + Jack Aubrey + Brave Black Flag + Devlin + La Croix depending on Select Storyline choices)
- MAYBE: Free Play with Stormy Start as separate option, unless we decide we don't need it OR can figure out a sensible way to combine it with the other Free Play storyline

As for Hornblower, my thinking is to allow him as a choice for the Free Play storyline as well.
That way you can choose whether you play Hornblower in free play or do the fixed storyline until that one allows you to transfer to free play after the main quest has completed.

But having presets to automatically select some specific characters for a grand unified pure free play storyline does sound good. Nelson, Aubrey and Le Croix, for a start. Perhaps also something for the Early Explorers period, e.g. Francis Drake.

Indeed Early Explorers doesn't really have much of any appropriate characters yet. Devlin will apply, of course, but that is a bit "fake".
Anyway, I'll experiment with this throughout the week. When the concept works, it'll be easy to add more playable characters.

 

[Bartolomeu o Portugues]

What I want in the end is to have a selection of:
- Standard Storyline
- Assassin
- Bartolomeu
- Hornblower
- Jack Sparrow
- Woodes Rogers

- Gold bug

 

[Pieter Boelen]

- Gold bug

Shhh!!! Don't tell anyone! That one totally doesn't exist....

 

[Grey Roger]

Uh? Nobody said anything about getting rid of the proper existing storylines! We want to go forward, not backwards....

I got confused by this:

For example, to play as Hornblower you must know to select him, change the starting date and choose a different ship.

I'd prefer to play as Hornblower by selecting the "Chronicles of Horatio Hornblower" storyline.

As for Hornblower, my thinking is to allow him as a choice for the Free Play storyline as well.

So we'd have Jack Aubrey, Horatio Nelson and Horatio Hornblower all as British commissioned officers in the late time periods - not much difference apart from the different faces if it's free-play. Rather than another British Napoleonic character, perhaps create an officer from one of the other nations? Maybe borrow one of Horatio Hornblower's adversaries and make him playable.

Indeed Early Explorers doesn't really have much of any appropriate characters yet. Devlin will apply, of course, but that is a bit "fake".

No more fake than other pre-generated free-play characters. But at the moment there's next to nothing to do in Early Explorers apart from the Devlin storyline. What might be nice, as a long-term goal if not an immediate task, is a pre-generated famous character for more than one nation in each period.