Feature Request More need to rest after battle

[Grey Roger]

I have to say that I don't like any of this at all. If combat is ruined in this way then it will probably be time for me to stick with whichever version of the game last had the current mechanism in which you can use bandages during battle and can heal naturally.

As was pointed out earlier, it only needs someone to shoot you with a powerful gun and you're almost dead, especially since we reduced the effectiveness of armour against firearms. If you can't then heal yourself without first putting your sword away then you're probably dead. That pretty well ruins boarding actions against some of the larger targets, e.g. the Sovereign of the Seas at the end of "Tales of a Sea Hawk".

Leave "Toughness" as it is, leave medicaments as they are, and if you really want to get yourself killed in combat then just don't use them - don't force this on everyone else, please.

 

[Levis]

I sugest we make the healthbonus for toughness a define so it's easier to change.

In the function LAi_AllCharactersUpdate the regeneration is done. IMO this should at least be in an if statement to check if there is a battle or not. As long as you are in danger you shouldn´t regenerate...

Maybe we should indeed change regeneration so it only happens if you are in a town or something like that, I think we could merge this with the idea of having a penalty when getting to much damage etc. I could try to make that work this week so we could test it (I will make a toggle for it so it can be disabled if needed) because we would need player feedback for it.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I have to say that I don't like any of this at all. If combat is ruined in this way then it will probably be time for me to stick with whichever version of the game last had the current mechanism in which you can use bandages during battle and can heal naturally.

Could you pretty please stop seemingly going into panic mode every time anyone does any brainstorming on anything you don't like?

The process is very simple:
Brainstorming is FREE and people can suggest whatever they want; suggestions do not equal decisions. Not even my interest in a suggestion equals a decision.
We talk about it until we arrive at a way of implementing the idea that would be, based on what we can think of, be the best possible implementation of that idea.
Where "best possible implementation" can also end up being "changing nothing", depending on how the discussion goes.

If something is controversal, we will check with the community and then decide to either do nothing OR if perhaps a toggle is needed.
Even then, it all depends on whether anyone is willing to put in the time and effort to make it happen.
And then once it is finally implemented, we'll tweak it further depending on feedback from actual gameplay.
That process is as reasonable as it comes and you know that!

A "more difficult to get HP back" situation does seem quite interesting to me, as it is quite realistic and adds a very substantial challenge to the game.
This is very obviously something some people might like, but not others. It should therefore be tied to Difficulty, Realism Mode or get a separate toggle.

Not EVER will we deliberately force anything onto anyone that we know is not appreciated.
It may happen if we really don't know, but even then, as soon as we find out, we can always add a toggle.

So really any fears that we'll make the game terrible on purpose are a complete non-issue.
That is not ever going to happen, so don't worry about that.

 

[Levis]

I agree it shouldn't become to hard ...
This is what I sugest now which I think would still allow for larger battles but does make you think more about fighting:

- Change the natural regenration on only in "safe" area's. This will be on your own ship or in towns. During boarding or in jungles you wont regenerate health automaticly (maybe have Toughness change this so you DO regenerate in these situations).
- Healing items will be divided in two categories. Some you can use during battle but these will be a bit harder to get and more expensive. Others take some time to use and you need to have your weapon sheeted to use them. But they are very common and cheap.
- During battle the damage you get will accumulate and for every X amount (for example if you received 2 times your HP in damage) you will get an "injury". These injuries will be picked at random. They can vary from a little penatly in blocking to some HP penalty. Or something more severe like a penalty in melee skill or aiming.
- If you have rested in a bed (like the tavern or on your ship) these injuries will be fixed.
- There will be an healing item you can use to remove 1 injury but this one will be very expensive.
- All of these things will also be for your officers etc. Sleaping will fix them too. If they leave your shoreparty for a day they will also be injury free again.

I think this would make fighting a bit more interesting. you can go on fighting for quite some time, but at some point you DO want to take some rest or try to get out of the battle and maybe use your gun a bit more.
What do you think @Grey Roger would you want to try this? If I make it like this it would be behind a toggle so we can disable it if it doesn't work. But would you be willing to try it and provide feedback to improve it?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Maybe we should indeed change regeneration so it only happens if you are in a town or something like that, I think we could merge this with the idea of having a penalty when getting to much damage etc. I could try to make that work this week so we could test it (I will make a toggle for it so it can be disabled if needed) because we would need player feedback for it.

Maybe do a bit more thinking first before continuing? I'm not quite clear on what we should/shouldn't want on this one yet....

 

[Grey Roger]

No, I do not want to try this. It sound as though it would seriously harm the balance of combat as it is now and would certainly ruin boarding for me. You can't regenerate health and you can't use the more commonly available healing items, which means if you've taken serious damage in one boarding deck then you probably won't survive the next deck, and you can forget about boarding a ship with six decks, let alone trying to board several ships in a convoy.

So really any fears that we'll make the game terrible on purpose are a complete non-issue.
That is not ever going to happen, so don't worry about that.

It's already happened before, and I already did this before. Beta 3.2 was for me a total disaster so I reverted to Beta 3.1. Fortunately for me, it turned out that I wasn't alone after all and Beta 3.3 was based on Beta 3.1.

Certainly there's no intention to wreck the game. There's just a difference of opinion as to what counts as wrecking the game. If I'm the only one who feels that this (and a few other recent proposals) are going to spoil the game because of a belief that players are doing too well and need to be held back, then it's unreasonable for me to try to hold up or block developments that everyone else wants. But I really don't want to have to drop out and stick with an increasingly outdated version of PoTC, so that is an absolute last resort for if the game stops being fun.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Change the natural regenration on only in "safe" area's. This will be on your own ship or in towns. During boarding or in jungles you wont regenerate health automaticly (maybe have Toughness change this so you DO regenerate in these situations).

What about natural generation going maximally +20 HP (for example) at midnight when at sea or sleeping in tavern?
So none at all while "hanging around" in outside areas?

Healing items will be divided in two categories. Some you can use during battle but these will be a bit harder to get and more expensive. Others take some time to use and you need to have your weapon sheeted to use them. But they are very common and cheap.

Indeed I like the idea of Bandages and Cauterization Kits not being usable while in battle.
Potions are OK though, since they're supposed to be a bit magical anyway.

- During battle the damage you get will accumulate and for every X amount (for example if you received 2 times your HP in damage) you will get an "injury". These injuries will be picked at random. They can vary from a little penatly in blocking to some HP penalty. Or something more severe like a penalty in melee skill or aiming.
- If you have rested in a bed (like the tavern or on your ship) these injuries will be fixed.
- There will be an healing item you can use to remove 1 injury but this one will be very expensive.

Maybe skip on that for the time being?
Sounds like a lot of work and added complexity, which I'd quite like to avoid due to the risks involved....
See how far we can get with small (balancing) tweaks to the existing systems first?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

No, I do not want to try this. It sound as though it would seriously harm the balance of combat as it is now and would certainly ruin boarding for me. You can't regenerate health and you can't use the more commonly available healing items, which means if you've taken serious damage in one boarding deck then you probably won't survive the next deck, and you can forget about boarding a ship with six decks, let alone trying to board several ships in a convoy.

Based on what I myself have in mind, you would be able to use the common health items between each deck once the fight is over.
So that shouldn't be quite so bad.

It's already happened before, and I already did this before. Beta 3.2 was for me a total disaster so I reverted to Beta 3.1. Fortunately for me, it turned out that I wasn't alone after all and Beta 3.3 was based on Beta 3.1.

Beta 3.2 was a total disaster for everyone because there were serious bugs with it that only came to light after the release.
If @Levis had been around at the time to fix them, we might have been able to maintain that functionality in such a way that it actually would work.
But that didn't happen.

This was purely accidental though. And especially after the many, many delays in getting Beta 4 released,
I am now VERY VERY cautious about "big complex things" being changed right now.

Certainly there's no intention to wreck the game. There's just a difference of opinion as to what counts as wrecking the game. If I'm the only one who feels that this (and a few other recent proposals) are going to spoil the game because of a belief that players are doing too well and need to be held back, then it's unreasonable for me to try to hold up or block developments that everyone else wants. But I really don't want to have to drop out and stick with an increasingly outdated version of PoTC, so that is an absolute last resort for if the game stops being fun.

We have added toggles to the mod before for the specific purpose of making even a single person happy.
You know that to be true. And that is fine by me. Everyone should be able to enjoy the game in the way they want to enjoy it.

 

[Levis]

What about natural generation going maximally +20 HP (for example) at midnight when at sea or sleeping in tavern?
Maybe skip on that for the time being?
Sounds like a lot of work and added complexity, which I'd quite like to avoid due to the risks involved....
See how far we can get with small (balancing) tweaks to the existing systems first?

This part I was thinking of doing after at least another public release, not before .

What about natural generation going maximally +20 HP (for example) at midnight when at sea or sleeping in tavern?
So none at all while "hanging around" in outside areas?

hmmm....capping natural regen will be pretty hard because what is your start point. You could do a natural regeneration to a certain percentage of HP.
Say you have 100 HP, you could for example only regenerate to 20 HP but not higher, that wouldn't be hard to implement at all.

Beta 3.2 was a total disaster for everyone because there were serious bugs with it that only came to light after the release.
If @Levis had been around at the time to fix them, we might have been able to maintain that functionality in such a way that it actually would work.
But that didn't happen.

sorry .

 

[Pieter Boelen]

hmmm....capping natural regen will be pretty hard because what is your start point. You could do a natural regeneration to a certain percentage of HP.
Say you have 100 HP, you could for example only regenerate to 20 HP but not higher, that wouldn't be hard to implement at all.

Check what is the minimum HP that officers will try to increase through health items. I am currently assuming that to be 20.
Then every midnight, assuming you're at sea OR sleeping in a tavern, add +20 to player and all officers.
If you're more wounded than that, then you'll need multiple days.

 

[Levis]

Check what is the minimum HP that officers will try to increase through health items. I am currently assuming that to be 20.
Then every midnight, assuming you're at sea OR sleeping in a tavern, add +20 to player and all officers.
If you're more wounded than that, then you'll need multiple days.

ah like that ....
it could work. altough I can imagine it being quite weird if you are walking on land at midnight and you suddenly get more HP, so it would need to check on that too....

 

[Pieter Boelen]

altough I can imagine it being quite weird if you are walking on land at midnight and you suddenly get more HP, so it would need to check on that too....

That's why I said "assuming you're at sea OR sleeping in a tavern".

 

[imado552]

how about i sagest this without being on any side just my own side !!!

why not use it for IRON MAN mod that would be the best i play iron man mod and would be happy to see that since its A REALISTIC MOD !!

while leaving a toggle for the ones who would love to play it in REALISTIC MOD and i don't think ARCADE MOD would need it at all

and i pretty much loved all of these ideas while i do respect Grey Roger opinion since not everyone will enjoy this but i think a toggle will fix that you won't have to play with it if you want it no problemo !!!

No, I do not want to try this. It sound as though it would seriously harm the balance of combat as it is now and would certainly ruin boarding for me. You can't regenerate health and you can't use the more commonly available healing items, which means if you've taken serious damage in one boarding deck then you probably won't survive the next deck, and you can forget about boarding a ship with six decks, let alone trying to board several ships in a convoy

you can use the items after the fight is done since you can use the healing items when you are not holding you sword after being done the first deck heal and fight easy i think and i think this will give a new meaning to healing items cuz they will become something important for you and your crew and fleet cuz i barely use them at all i just give some to my officers XD so i think adding such feature will make you well at least me more immersed !! and make your planing the best and Doctors will have their "SHOULD BE IMPORTANCE"

i think you should go to tavern or your ship to heal i don't think its more realistic well you can make a doctor office in each town or some like in Bridgetown so you can go to him for emergency healing !!!

well i can keep on going lol but i'll stop here !!

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I reckon we could group this either under Iron Man Mode (with InternalSettings.h option to enable it also on the lower realism modes if desired) OR perhaps link it to Swashbuckler difficulty mode only.

 

[imado552]

I reckon we could group this either under Iron Man Mode (with InternalSettings.h option to enable it also on the lower realism modes if desired) OR perhaps link it to Swashbuckler difficulty mode only.

that's a great idea like if you want to test your limits try the hardest dif in iron man mod woah (A Heaven Indead ARGGG!!) i like all of the ideas so i don't care which one if you add this feature as long as you add it XD
i fully support you

 

[Tingyun]

I like the Pieter/Levis proposal a lot: potions only with sword drawn, midnight small hp recovery if resting. Potions should be made available at lower levels then.

I prefer linking it to ironman with a toggle, rather than swashbuckler. I will play realistic and then toggle it on.

Levis, on the injury/battle faituge idea, I posted some detailed feedback for you earlier in this thread after playing with a self imposed version of the resting at taverns after 5x Max HP loss rule. Even at such a generous setting, I found it constantly took me away from the action and was quite tedious, basically it was not fun. Other people may have different preferences, but if you do implement it, I would hope for it to be seperately toggleable from the other HP changes, so I can use these changes but turn off the injuries/battle fatigue. I just didn't find the fatigue system fun, personally.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Potions should be made available at lower levels then.

Potions are always available, but they should be rare. Are they ever sold? If so, I'm tempted to put a stop to that.
There are the random town folk who sometimes sell them though.

I prefer linking it to ironman with a toggle, rather than swashbuckler. I will play realistic and then toggle it on.

Maybe it is indeed more Realism than Difficulty.

Levis, on the injury/battle faituge idea, I posted some detailed feedback for you earlier in this thread after playing with a self imposed version of the resting at taverns after 5x Max HP loss rule. Even at such a generous setting, I found it constantly took me away from the action and was quite tedious, basically it was not fun. Other people may have different preferences, but if you do implement it, I would hope for it to be seperately toggleable from the other HP changes, so I can use these changes but turn off the injuries/battle fatigue. I just didn't find the fatigue system fun, personally.

Indeed what I've seen in other games, Fatigua strikes me as being more annoying than anything else.
As far as I'm concerned, that idea can be considered quite long-term.